Why Test for Echo failed so miserably

[Tommy Sawyer]

QUOTE (metaldad @ Nov 28 2011, 04:15 PM)

QUOTE (Tommy Sawyer @ Nov 28 2011, 04:13 PM) QUOTE (metaldad @ Nov 28 2011, 03:43 PM) QUOTE (Tommy Sawyer @ Nov 28 2011, 03:40 PM) QUOTE (metaldad @ Nov 28 2011, 03:33 PM) QUOTE (Tommy Sawyer @ Nov 28 2011, 03:29 PM) QUOTE (laughedatbytime @ Nov 28 2011, 12:43 PM) QUOTE (Tommy Sawyer @ Nov 27 2011, 05:33 PM) QUOTE (LeaveMyThingAlone @ Nov 26 2011, 11:57 PM) Well, this thread certainly took a different voyage than it's intended purpose. Namely, it has turned into a debate whether T4E sucks or not, when it was meant to be some reasoning as to WHY it sucks. I didn't think whether it sucked or not was up for debate LOL Trust me on this one guy...it sucks. Move past that debate. (Don't get me wrong. There are a few keepers...the title track, Driven, and Totem are all on my iPod) Now let's ask ourselves WHY...so let's blame Freddie Gruber There is no way to say subjectively that any album in the world sucks.   That's right, even Justin Bieber's album does not suck subjectively, even though we all agree that it is one we do not like.   But as for why you[/i] don't like it, Freddie Gruber is probably not the answer I would accept, although your explanation makes a little sense.   (Just a little.)   I think you're confusing subjectively with objectively. Wow, you're right.     I mean that there is no way to say objectively that any album sucks. S&A Sucks.............. That is just your opinion. No one can say that objectively, without bias, but as far as individual people are concerned, I have no problem with you saying that.   But unless 100% of the population agreed with you, your opinion wouldn't become fact. I know more people that Hate it, than Like it. My world is getting BIGGER, Join me................. But some like it, me included, so you just have an opinion, albeit a very popular one. Don't take things so Serious

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (Ged Lent's sis @ Nov 28 2011, 10:40 AM)

QUOTE (Tony R @ Nov 24 2011, 05:20 PM) I think every album since Power Windows has been rubbish so why single out T4E for special attention? This raises a good point.   That is, once we get past the pedantic way of stepping around the matter, ie. taking issue with the premise that "everybody agrees", etc., there is an instructive, observable trend amongst fans, and I believe that it has a lot to do with when, and on what album got you hooked.   If T4E was your intro to Rush, and you like it, then we are talking about an entirely different measuring stick than for one for whom, say, 2112 was the grabber. And I would say it likely makes a difference whether or not the album was new at the time.   I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THESE OBSERVATIONS.   My first concert was Permanent Waves. Both Natural Science and Different Strings had a deep effect on me. And I was a mere fleeper at the time, who dug back into the catalog from there. I remember the smell of the albums (the plastic, the cardboard, the vinyl). Hemispheres, AFtK, 2112, CoS, FbN and even the Peartless debut, but also AtWaS. I remember recording the PeW St. Louis concert from the radio before I'd gone to the show myself. "Hey, St. Louis: I wanna see all your mthafn hands!" was Geddy's demand at the outset of In the Mood (he really did mumble "mthafn"; if you hadn't had the context, you wouldn't have known that he'd cursed).   I digress for a reason. Going forward I found each record a greater challenge. Moving Pictures and Signals had to be listened to a couple of times before they hooked me. P/G even more so. But hook me they did. As did Power Windows. I could tell with each subsequent release how they were expanding their horizons.   But then, HYF was the first that didn't sell me completely. Almost all of it took a while and I truly dig most of that album. But a couple of the tracks hipped me to something: they might be headed somewhere I'll never be ready to go.   Enter Presto. Ditto, except more-so. More bad songs. Up to that point they always had a structure and arrangement - with the lyrics and vox - and they always broke out and downright jammed. Something was increasingly missing.   I won't even go into RtB except to ask: Was this the album that Geddy referred to in an interview when he made a reference to the band having to deal with "having made a bad album"?   When I got Counterparts I was so thrilled that they had done something so great. And it wasn't like it was "a return" to anything. I felt they were still moving forward, but made a significant departure. I love that album.   Then came Test for Echo. Hmmm. For my money, this was a return. A return to Presto and Roll the Bones.   So why do those of us who don't like it - not like it? Allow me to assume that Freddie Gruber was meant ironically, and that LMTA mean to say, "Neil Peart". Were his lyrics really slipping?   I'm not sure. I have trouble analyzing them outside of the songs. Frankly, taken as a whole, only segments of Peart's poetry can stand alone without the music, in my opinion.   To me, it has more to do with something that is missing from the vocal arrangements. Those albums - along with the last two - seem to lack the a certain creative edge that the others have. To my ears they sound like singing by the numbers. Is it the lyrics or the vocals? Dunno. But if Presto or RtB or TfE or VT were your intro to the band, you might not know what the f I am talking about.   I mean, even if your intro to the band WAS Presto or RTB or T4E or VT, it doesn't make those album suck any less, but I hear ya.

Edited November 29, 2011 by rushgoober

[StellarJetman]

People with no taste can still have opinions, you know. That's why Twilight and The Da Vinci Code were best-sellers and got adapted into movies. That's why Insane Clown Posse have a more devoted and rabid cult of fans than Rush - or, possibly, any other band - will ever have.

 

Yes, I am saying that music - that art in any medium - can have objective value, whether good or bad. I don't know how anyone could look at art and say otherwise.

 

I want to clarify, though, that other people have every right to like Test for Echo, just as much as I have a right to like Presto, which is probably my second-favorite Rush album after Moving Pictures. (Hemispheres comes in third place, for what it's worth.) Am I wrong to like Presto? Maybe! There's a very good chance that it's unpopular for reasons that I'm just too dense to see. But when there's something that I can see, like (for example) the way that "Resist" is literally a looped chorus, I see no reason to not act on it.

 

I don't think that anyone can know a song's true value. But I do think that some people can be closer than others.

Edited November 29, 2011 by StellarJetman

[Gemari77]

My favorite post-Power Windows Rush record and the only one that I still listen to consistently out of anything they've done since the mid-80's... not that I dislike the others...but T4E is indeed my fav.

 

That's just my 2 cents without reading through the thread...I've read it all before, just like the Vapor Trails bashing (most of which I agree with).

 

If I can tolerate songs about Starships and fighting forest trees (and other assorted goofiness that Rush fans selectively overlook), then I can certainly tolerate any other lyrics...

 

Neil isn't the intellectual poet to me that he is to other people... He's a dude who plays and writes in a Rock band...and if I dig the music and the way the lyrics flow with the music and melody---THAT'S a song to me!

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (StellarJetman @ Nov 28 2011, 07:19 PM)

I want to clarify, though, that other people have every right to like Test for Echo, just as much as I have a right to like Presto

what a relief

Edited November 29, 2011 by Rushman14

[StellarJetman]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Nov 29 2011, 11:16 AM)

QUOTE (StellarJetman @ Nov 28 2011, 07:19 PM) I want to clarify, though, that other people have every right to like Test for Echo, just as much as I have a right to like Presto what a relief I never meant what you're thinking! That's not what I meant at all!   I meant that, whatever I may say about the album, I don't have any problem with someone else liking or defending it. After all, discussing Rush music is literally the point of this forum. What annoys me is when someone starts a thread with the assumption that Test for Echo is an album that people here generally dislike (which, if you want to be honest, is probably the case) and the thread devolves into people saying, "Nuh-uh! It isn't bad; that's just your opinion!" for six pages instead of actually contributing anything meaningful. Thinking that it's good is also "just" an opinion. Yeah, music is appreciated on a subjective basis. But if you just use that to wave away any real discussion, why even talk about it at all? You (in the hypothetical sense) think that Test for Echo is a great album? Tell me why! Show me why I should appreciate it! But don't muck up the thread by blathering on about opinions and subjectivity when you could be saying something worthwhile instead.

Edited November 29, 2011 by StellarJetman

[Jaminbenb]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Nov 28 2011, 08:42 PM)

QUOTE (Ged Lent's sis @ Nov 28 2011, 10:40 AM) QUOTE (Tony R @ Nov 24 2011, 05:20 PM) I think every album since Power Windows has been rubbish so why single out T4E for special attention? This raises a good point.   That is, once we get past the pedantic way of stepping around the matter, ie. taking issue with the premise that "everybody agrees", etc., there is an instructive, observable trend amongst fans, and I believe that it has a lot to do with when, and on what album got you hooked.   If T4E was your intro to Rush, and you like it, then we are talking about an entirely different measuring stick than for one for whom, say, 2112 was the grabber. And I would say it likely makes a difference whether or not the album was new at the time.   I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THESE OBSERVATIONS.   My first concert was Permanent Waves. Both Natural Science and Different Strings had a deep effect on me. And I was a mere fleeper at the time, who dug back into the catalog from there. I remember the smell of the albums (the plastic, the cardboard, the vinyl). Hemispheres, AFtK, 2112, CoS, FbN and even the Peartless debut, but also AtWaS. I remember recording the PeW St. Louis concert from the radio before I'd gone to the show myself. "Hey, St. Louis: I wanna see all your mthafn hands!" was Geddy's demand at the outset of In the Mood (he really did mumble "mthafn"; if you hadn't had the context, you wouldn't have known that he'd cursed).   I digress for a reason. Going forward I found each record a greater challenge. Moving Pictures and Signals had to be listened to a couple of times before they hooked me. P/G even more so. But hook me they did. As did Power Windows. I could tell with each subsequent release how they were expanding their horizons.   But then, HYF was the first that didn't sell me completely. Almost all of it took a while and I truly dig most of that album. But a couple of the tracks hipped me to something: they might be headed somewhere I'll never be ready to go.   Enter Presto. Ditto, except more-so. More bad songs. Up to that point they always had a structure and arrangement - with the lyrics and vox - and they always broke out and downright jammed. Something was increasingly missing.   I won't even go into RtB except to ask: Was this the album that Geddy referred to in an interview when he made a reference to the band having to deal with "having made a bad album"?   When I got Counterparts I was so thrilled that they had done something so great. And it wasn't like it was "a return" to anything. I felt they were still moving forward, but made a significant departure. I love that album.   Then came Test for Echo. Hmmm. For my money, this was a return. A return to Presto and Roll the Bones.   So why do those of us who don't like it - not like it? Allow me to assume that Freddie Gruber was meant ironically, and that LMTA mean to say, "Neil Peart". Were his lyrics really slipping?   I'm not sure. I have trouble analyzing them outside of the songs. Frankly, taken as a whole, only segments of Peart's poetry can stand alone without the music, in my opinion.   To me, it has more to do with something that is missing from the vocal arrangements. Those albums - along with the last two - seem to lack the a certain creative edge that the others have. To my ears they sound like singing by the numbers. Is it the lyrics or the vocals? Dunno. But if Presto or RtB or TfE or VT were your intro to the band, you might not know what the f I am talking about.   I mean, even if your intro to the band WAS Presto or RTB or T4E or VT, it doesn't make those album suck any less, but I hear ya.                           Yeah, I agree, good posting! I found Rush with ATWAS, and immediately dug into the back catalog, and found that Caress of Steel was my favorite of that "era" 2112 had a great side one, and a good song of two on side two, but CoS seemed to be more complete (sans I Think I'm Going Bald) Then as the "prog" era came into being, I really identified with AFTK and Hemispheres, and those two albums stand as my favorites with CoS taking a slight back seat to them. Permanent Waves came out and while I liked it, it didn't jump into me immediately, and took a little while, as did Moving Pictures, but I really dug into that with the release of the live album, and Exit... was a killer and it seemed that that and ATWAS were on the rotation more than any others. (ok, I like live albums)   Signals was a little different, and when GuP came out a different direction was the order of the day....they lost me with Power Windows and HyF as well as the subsequent live album...so I wasn't QUITE as happy and took off into different directions musically to keep my interests up....I thoroughly HATED Roll the Bones, and to this day it's probably the least played other than my yearly jump through the WHOLE catalog. And with the original poster for this "quote" I also loved Counterparts! (and was bummed that I wasn't able to see them on that tour because they came through close to my wedding day and that just wouldn't have gone over well with the Mrs.)   Getting to the OP's query....T4E wasn't a horrible album, but it wasn't their best, and while I DO like the way some of the tunes came off LIVE the ones that they didn't play were sort of "out there" Driven, to me is a great live song, and I wouldn't mind if they left it in the setlist, same with Time and Motion. I do think the live versions of some of these came across better than the studio versions, and can say I did enjoy what I got to hear of them live (and through recordings) I DO like the later acoustic version of Resist as opposed to the version they layed on the T4E tour.   After that I didn't like anything until Snakes and Arrows which is in amongst my favorite studio albums..I find it hard to believe that a band that has been together so long CAN still out out some great new music! But I accept that I won't like EVERYTHING like some people blindly seem to do, or HATE everything after a certain point...I like what I hear so far from "Clockwork Angels" and look forward to what they are going to release when it's out.

[anchorman]

Time and Motion is my favorite song off T4E. How do you not like that one ? Driven is cool too. Ok, lets do this -

 

1. Time and Motion (Dark, moody with elements of Hemispheres and a cool solo of sorts by Lerxst)

2. Driven

3. Totem (I like the Sweet Chariot part)

4. Carve Away the Stone (Music rocks, lyrics not so much)

5. Limbo

6. Test for Echo

7. Resist

8. Dog Years - Why all the hate ? It was a fun song

9. Half The World - Doesn't do it for me / I don't care what the other half thinks

10. Vitrtuality (Net boy, net girl...really ?)

11. The Color of Right (I'm having a hard time remembering what this even sounds like)

 

 

 

 

[Pound of Obscure]

QUOTE (LeaveMyThingAlone @ Nov 23 2011, 10:26 PM)

So, as we all know, Test for Echo is one of Rush's worst efforts if not their worst, particularly the lyrics, which everyone here agrees is Neil's worst effort. The question has always been why, particularly coming on the heels of Counterparts, which, obviously, is Rush's best album since Moving Pictures After watching Beyond the Lighted stage for the 1,000 th time it has finally hit me why...Test For Echo is the album where Neil re-learned to play the drums under Freddie Gruber! Of course, drumming took priority and Neil probably put lyrics on the back burner.... Like me, many of you have always wondered why Neil's lyrics are so wrong.....and I think I have discovered one possible reason. So the next time you're listening to Virtuality, Half the World, Dog Years, of The Color of Right and are thinking to youself  blame the late great Freddie Gruber

No, the worst lyrics would be Snakes. Dog Years is literary genius compared to "I like that show where they solve all those murders" or some crap like that.

 

Musically TFE is as good as anything else they have done since Power Windows. Just as many songs on Counterparts that nobody but a Rush fan has ever heard. (umm...that would be all of them)

Edited December 2, 2011 by Pound of Obscure

[tjtull]

[Cyclonus X-1]

I don't like a lot of what Peart came up with lyrically for T4E, but that's nothing new: there are lyrics up and down the Rush catalog that I don't dig at all. Obviously, if I'm really into the words, a song can rise to another level for me, but as long as the product sounds good on the whole, I'm usually okay with the lines not clicking with me. Seldom do unappealing lyrics bring a song down a notch in my book. Half the World is one case; having to hear "half" every three seconds kind of drives me batty. They got away with that sort of thing in The Big Money (if just barely), but the repetition is taken to a greater extreme in Half. But, even then, the melodies and instrumental elements work for me, so I can enjoy the tune.

 

Arriving on the heels of Counterparts was a tough order for an album of T4E's nature. CP's tunes are, by and large, more immediately assertive, and seem to hit hard with a lot of folks right off the bat. T4E's hooks might take a little longer to produce an effect (and, of course, they just never get the job done for some listeners). Truthfully, a lot of T4E's tracks have sections (at the least) that really rock: Test for Echo, Driven, and Time and Motion all have Counterparts-caliber hard parts. The head nodding may not occur as immediately or as regularly as with many of CP's numbers, however.

 

I really like a lot of the vocal melodies on T4E, especially The Color of Right's (perhaps I'm the only one in that case!)... Virtuality's, too.

 

Even as a big Going Bald fan, I don't find Dog Years particularly clever or amusing or audibly appealing, but I don't think it's a trainwreck or anything. Same for Limbo, which I don't believe comes close to the likes of YYZ, LTTA, and La Villa, but is still interesting in its own right.

 

Incidentally, Pags, I lived in the NY area in the Counterparts days as well, and funnily enough, I remember Stick it Out as being the one that was on the airwaves enough to drive me mad. No doubt that Cold Fire got its share of air time as well, of course.

 

QUOTE

Hearing Neil explain the songs, and getting caught up in his enthusiasm made the album more enjoyable for me I guess. It's hard to see the album in a negative light after the artist has personally broken it down and shown his commitment and love for it.

 

I can really relate to this comment. I've always liked the Limelight solo, but hearing Alex talk so passionately about it put it in a whole new light for me. I guess it just seems that much more beautiful when you know how much the musician himself is feeling what he's delivering.

 

[Pound of Obscure]

[tjtull]

[Gompers]

QUOTE (LeaveMyThingAlone @ Nov 23 2011, 11:26 PM)

So, as we all know, Test for Echo is one of Rush's worst efforts if not their worst...

Nope. I quite like TFE!

 

TFE rocks!

[Gompers]

QUOTE (Pound of Obscure @ Dec 2 2011, 12:50 PM)

No, the worst lyrics would be Snakes.

That is a negative.

[Pound of Obscure]

[Soni]

I TFE

 

and that's it.

Spreadin' love like butter

[Todem]

You know with all the flack this record get's for lyrics Test For Echo has 3 of some of Neil's finest work ever lyrically.

 

 

Totem

 

Resist

 

Dog years......yes Dog Years. If your love dogs and have a smidgen of a sense of humor you have a wide shit eating grin on your face when rocking out this this killer, in your face underrated, overbashed Rush GEM.

 

Dog Years friggin rocks the house. That groove they go into for the verses is CLASSIC rip roaring rush. And that bridge?

 

I'd rather be a tortise.......

 

 

LOVE THAT PART.

 

Ok rant over.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Todem

[Weakly Criminal]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Nov 25 2011, 10:45 AM)

QUOTE (Weakly Criminal @ Nov 25 2011, 06:08 AM) TFE is a great album, and Dog Years is demented genius. How RUSH fans fail to get what they're going for with this song amazes me, particularly on the heels of Anagram (for Mongo). Ged's dog like yelping might have been a clue. Oh, for fk's sake. Here comes another one. Another one who's smarter than all of us poor retards who don't "get" Dog Years. You, sir, must be a goddamn genius.   Those of us that don't like the song? We GET Dog Years. We UNDERSTAND what he was going for in the lyrics. We DON'T find it funny, clever or any good at all.   He didn't write some complicated treatise on the fragile state of mankind in the greater view of the cosmos. We get the comparison of dog years to human years. We just don't like the way he executed the idea.   And that doesn't make you smarter than us. You're right, that post was somewhat condescending.   And thank you for proving that I'm smarter than you.   QUOTE (lerxt1990 @ Nov 26 2011, 09:24 PM) I thought Virtuality was a completely awesome song.  Only for the outdated lyrics can this song not be relevant anymore, which is a shame, because the music was a great driving rock song. Still a pretty apt description of the net if you ask me. And yes the music is great.   QUOTE (An Enemy Without @ Nov 26 2011, 11:10 PM) I wanna hear you say it! When I say Test for Echo, you say sucks! Test for Echo!   Epic fail.   QUOTE (An Enemy Without @ Nov 27 2011, 12:16 AM) TFE is balls-deep in the pit of mediocrity. For us older guys that's only knee deep.

[LyndseyG]

QUOTE (Weakly Criminal @ Dec 3 2011, 02:06 PM)

QUOTE (An Enemy Without @ Nov 27 2011, 12:16 AM) TFE is balls-deep in the pit of mediocrity. For us older guys that's only knee deep.

[Pags]

QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Dec 3 2011, 08:20 AM)

QUOTE (Weakly Criminal @ Dec 3 2011, 02:06 PM) QUOTE (An Enemy Without @ Nov 27 2011, 12:16 AM) TFE is balls-deep in the pit of mediocrity. For us older guys that's only knee deep.

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (Weakly Criminal @ Dec 3 2011, 07:06 AM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Nov 25 2011, 10:45 AM) QUOTE (Weakly Criminal @ Nov 25 2011, 06:08 AM) TFE is a great album, and Dog Years is demented genius. How RUSH fans fail to get what they're going for with this song amazes me, particularly on the heels of Anagram (for Mongo). Ged's dog like yelping might have been a clue. Oh, for fk's sake. Here comes another one. Another one who's smarter than all of us poor retards who don't "get" Dog Years. You, sir, must be a goddamn genius.   Those of us that don't like the song? We GET Dog Years. We UNDERSTAND what he was going for in the lyrics. We DON'T find it funny, clever or any good at all.   He didn't write some complicated treatise on the fragile state of mankind in the greater view of the cosmos. We get the comparison of dog years to human years. We just don't like the way he executed the idea.   And that doesn't make you smarter than us. You're right, that post was somewhat condescending.   And thank you for proving that I'm smarter than you. That doesn't even make sense. It looks like you were going for some kind of witty retort, but failed. Well done.

[An Enemy Without]

QUOTE (Weakly Criminal @ Dec 3 2011, 08:06 AM)

QUOTE (An Enemy Without @ Nov 27 2011, 12:16 AM) TFE is balls-deep in the pit of mediocrity. For us older guys that's only knee deep. Oh come on... I'm not THAT young.

[An Enemy Without]

If life were a box of chocolates, TFE would be the one that is really just dog sh*t.

[01GT Eibach]

Trying to convince anyone why what they like or dislike is a losing battle ... and mostly a waste of time. I am one who really likes TFE, but feel no need to convince anyone who thinks otherwise. This is what is referred to as a "difference of opinion"...