Eagles producer Bill Szymczyk wanted to work with Rush

[taurus]

 

No extra info but would love to know if he ever tried to make contact with the band and if so what year. P/G might have benefited, that was a difficult time with Lilywhite bailing on the project, leaving the band high an dry

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

1 hour ago, taurus said:

 

No extra info but would love to know if he ever tried to make contact with the band and if so what year. P/G might have benefited, that was a difficult time with Lilywhite bailing on the project, leaving the band high an dry

 

I still like P/G, not sure what a different producer could have done to improve it. I listened to DEW and Afterimage the other day and they still hold up.

[Mosher]

I don't understand enough about a producers job to have any opinion on how this one would change things. 

 

I do know I really like P/G so I guess Is change nothing.

 

I know some really hate the production on that album. 

 

I know they will push for certain ideas and against others, but ultimately I only understand if I like the sound.

 

I have 2 Grace songs in my top 10 Rush ever, so as far as I'm concerned leave it alone.

 

I suppose if anything Is have asked for Producer who would limit the 80s over indulgence in synth effects and lean harder into guitar and bass, but since I still love PoW, for example, I wouldn't even change that.

[78jazz]

3 hours ago, Mosher said:

I don't understand enough about a producers job to have any opinion on how this one would change things. 

I think most of the explanations on a producers job don't hold water. There is something of a head coach parallel here.

 

That said, I think Bill Scymxzyk working with Rush around that time would have been excellent. 

 

I would be more excited about them doing an album with him over Terry Brown doing it again. Yes, you read that right. 

[Maverick]

I've never heard of anyone criticizing P/G's production.  In fact, I've seen that album used as an example of how an album should be produced/engineered as opposed to the original production of VT.

[malm_51]

Hey, nothing wrong with P/G's production!! Just different, that's all!

Edited August 23, 2023 by malm_51

[taurus]

I really like G/P and have no issues with the sound or mix. I just find the idea of a producer who has been at the helm for one of the best selling albums of all time, twiddling the knobs for musical acts that aren't very Rush-like, intriguing. Coupled with the fact that Peter Henderson was an eleventh hour replacement, I wondered if Symczyk had made overtures.

[Rush Didact]

I'm not a fan of p/g's production, I find it to be a dry and sterile album with none of the creativity and life that Peter Collins brought to PoW.  There's nothing specifically wrong with it, but there's also nothing specifically right about it either.

[78jazz]

2 hours ago, taurus said:

I really like G/P and have no issues with the sound or mix. I just find the idea of a producer who has been at the helm for one of the best selling albums of all time, twiddling the knobs for musical acts that aren't very Rush-like, intriguing. Coupled with the fact that Peter Henderson was an eleventh hour replacement, I wondered if Symczyk had made overtures.

I suspect this would be an excellent question for Geddy and Alex at some point if it could happen.

[Tony R]

He didn’t criticise the recording of P/G

[treeduck]

They could have improved it by dropping The Body Electric, Red Lenses and The Enemy Within in favour of three high flying metal tracks. And 73 might be called Heavy Metal Noise or something instead!

[Alex’s Amazing Arpeggios]

20 hours ago, Rush Didact said:

….with none of the creativity and life that Peter Collins brought to PoW.  

🤔 The mystery for me has always been…

( and bear in mind I’m part of the Generation of Rush fans who is of an age that purchased Power Windows back to back with Hold Your Fire as brand new releases on their original dates of release back in ‘85 & ‘87 )

… how did Collins do such an amazingly stellar job with PoW … yet HYF 

purely in terms of the album’s actual production was so disappointingly dull !? 
 

PoW still thrills me even today   
( 38 years after its intial release ) 

I loved & still do all the exciting very current at the time synths and ‘ bells and whistles ‘ effects jumping out of the speakers.
Plus Peter captured & merging perfectly with it Lerxst’s contemporary yet Hard Rock  guitar tone. Geddy’s bass & vocals sound superb too, as does Neil’s drumming. 
 

In contrast on HYF, Alex’s guitar tone plus the overall sound of the album is just far too soft & borderline bland 

Who decided on this different approach ?

Peter Collins ? Or the band ? 🤔

[chemistry1973]

Traditionally, The Producer is the apartment manager, director, head of operations, Jack Woltz of the project.

 

He budgets the recording project,

pays the team, hires and fires, and makes final, cost based, executive decisions.

The guy with his hands on the faders, setting up mics, and doing the physical recording of the band is the engineer. Like Kevin Shirley, who engineered Counterparts.

 

The engineer makes gear decisions - what amps might be good. Or what drum miking technique is best.

 

In some cases, the producer will also be the recording engineer. But that is in many cases a budgetary decision since both are full time jobs.

 

Peter Henderson was a producer -engineer. Rush liked him personally but hated his approach. Couldn’t make command decisions- probably because he was too close to the project artistically.

 

Rush absolutely loved working with Peter Collins - who was a big picture producer and let the guys he brought with him handle the little issues. Peter Collins helped Rush achieve their artistic vision by staying out of their way - and by keeping all manners of day to day non-artsy bullshit out of their sphere.

 

Also, the producer will get points on album sales. This is why Bob Rock is worth 100 million bucks.

Edited August 28, 2023 by chemistry1973

[HemiBeers]

P/G shows a lack of creativity that a qualified producer might have been able to help with. Even at first play, I thought that all the songs had similar basic minor chord patterns and similar tempo. Very middle of the road album for me.

[Rush Didact]

3 hours ago, Alex’s Amazing Arpeggios said:

🤔 The mystery for me has always been…

( and bear in mind I’m part of the Generation of Rush fans who is of an age that purchased Power Windows back to back with Hold Your Fire as brand new releases on their original dates of release back in ‘85 & ‘87 )

… how did Collins do such an amazingly stellar job with PoW … yet HYF 

purely in terms of the album’s actual production was so disappointingly dull !? 
 

PoW still thrills me even today   
( 38 years after its intial release ) 

I loved & still do all the exciting very current at the time synths and ‘ bells and whistles ‘ effects jumping out of the speakers.
Plus Peter captured & merging perfectly with it Lerxst’s contemporary yet Hard Rock  guitar tone. Geddy’s bass & vocals sound superb too, as does Neil’s drumming. 
 

In contrast on HYF, Alex’s guitar tone plus the overall sound of the album is just far too soft & borderline bland 

Who decided on this different approach ?

Peter Collins ? Or the band ? 🤔

 

That's a damned good question.  I can't stand the production of HYF, it's shrill and grainy and muffled all at once.  The drums sound dead (good god, what the hell did they do to the kick drum?), the guitar sounds like crap, the bass is all twang with no oomph.  It's the polar opposite of PoW, which is one of the best sounding albums the band ever released.

 

And yet both albums were produced by Peter Collins and engineered by James "Jimbo" Barton.  How they got such wildly different results is beyond me.

 

I would love to hear a remix of HYF, but I'm afraid the band would give it to some dunce like Dave Bottrill again who would try to turn it into a metal album.

[JARG]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:37 AM, Mosher said:

I don't understand enough about a producers job to have any opinion on how this one would change things.

My understanding is that a producer is supposed to serve as an "objective ear" when it comes to song's composition/arrangement, and individual performances during the song's recording. I would expect a producer to suggest things like changing the key a song is in, or the tempo it's being played at, or extending/shortening various parts of the song to make it "flow" better, and stuff like that.

 

 

 

 

[treeduck]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:36 PM, Alex’s Amazing Arpeggios said:

🤔 The mystery for me has always been…

( and bear in mind I’m part of the Generation of Rush fans who is of an age that purchased Power Windows back to back with Hold Your Fire as brand new releases on their original dates of release back in ‘85 & ‘87 )

… how did Collins do such an amazingly stellar job with PoW … yet HYF 

purely in terms of the album’s actual production was so disappointingly dull !? 
 

PoW still thrills me even today   
( 38 years after its intial release ) 

I loved & still do all the exciting very current at the time synths and ‘ bells and whistles ‘ effects jumping out of the speakers.
Plus Peter captured & merging perfectly with it Lerxst’s contemporary yet Hard Rock  guitar tone. Geddy’s bass & vocals sound superb too, as does Neil’s drumming. 
 

In contrast on HYF, Alex’s guitar tone plus the overall sound of the album is just far too soft & borderline bland 

Who decided on this different approach ?

Peter Collins ? Or the band ? 🤔

I prefer Hold Your Fire over Grace Under Pressure.

[edhunter]

Grace sounds very cold to me. As much as I would want a Steinberger to relive my teen years through a mid-life crisis, it really did sound like shit. The tones of each instrument just did not seem to blend well.  I love the songs, they just needed to be recorded with warmer-sounding instruments. 

[Timbale]

On 8/23/2023 at 2:58 PM, chemistry1973 said:

Traditionally, The Producer is the apartment manager, director, head of operations, Jack Woltz of the project.

 

He budgets the recording project,

pays the team, hires and fires, and makes final, coat based, executive decisions.

The guy with his hands on the faders, setting up mics, and doing the physical recording of the band is the engineer. Like Kevin Shirley, who engineered Counterparts.

 

The engineer makes gear decisions - what amps might be good. Or what drum miking technique is best.

 

In some cases, the producer will also be the recording engineer. But that is in many cases a budgetary decision since both are full time jobs.

 

Peter Henderson was a producer -engineer. Rush liked him personally but hated his approach. Couldn’t make command decisions- probably because he was too close to the project artistically.

 

Rush absolutely loved working with Peter Collins - who was a big picture producer and let the guys he brought with him handle the little issues. Peter Collins helped Rush achieve their artistic vision by staying out of their way - and by keeping all manners of day to day non-artsy bullshit out of their sphere.

 

Also, the producer will get points on album sales. This is why Bob Rock is worth 100 million bucks.

Post of the day for the Jack Woltz reference.

[Timbale]

I always thought the drum sound in particular on P/G took a step backwards from Signals.  I know lots of people don't like the production on Signals - for me it's a fave.

 

I really like Bill Szymczyk's work on The Who's Face Dances.  Despite having Jones instead of Moon, I think it's a superior album to Who Are You.  I think it would have been cool so see what he would have done for Rush.

[chemistry1973]

On 8/23/2023 at 5:52 PM, Rush Didact said:

 

That's a damned good question.  I can't stand the production of HYF, it's shrill and grainy and muffled all at once.  The drums sound dead (good god, what the hell did they do to the kick drum?), the guitar sounds like crap, the bass is all twang with no oomph.  It's the polar opposite of PoW, which is one of the best sounding albums the band ever released.

 

And yet both albums were produced by Peter Collins and engineered by James "Jimbo" Barton.  How they got such wildly different results is beyond me.

 

I would love to hear a remix of HYF, but I'm afraid the band would give it to some dunce like Dave Bottrill again who would try to turn it into a metal album.

 

pretty much down to the band and their mixing decisions. Geddy attended just about every mixing session for every album.

[chemistry1973]

If you listen to Sparkle in the Rain by Simple Minds you can perhaps hear what GuP would’ve sounded like with Lillywhite.

 

And you can see hear Lillywhite’s influence on Power Windows for certain.

[Timbale]

20 hours ago, chemistry1973 said:

If you listen to Sparkle in the Rain by Simple Minds you can perhaps hear what GuP would’ve sounded like with Lillywhite.

 

And you can see hear Lillywhite’s influence on Power Windows for certain.

It would have been interesting for sure.  I've always wondered if he would have pushed, or at least accentuated more, Lifeson's interest/influence from The Edge around that time.  I really love Alex's approach to rhythm guitar around this era...but with Lillywhite at the helm, I wonder if it would have sounded TOO close to U2...

[Rush Didact]

22 hours ago, chemistry1973 said:

 

pretty much down to the band and their mixing decisions. Geddy attended just about every mixing session for every album.

 

I think from the 90s onwards, it's equally Ged and Al.  Listen to their solo albums and you can hear what each of them contribute to the mixing process.

 

Victor is an atrocious sounding album, the heavier songs are a straight up assault on the ears with painful amounts of upper mids and treble.

 

MFH is better behaved and not as hard on the ears, but the overall mix is bloated and murky and it's the first time Ged's bass tone starts to take on that clanky, mechanical sound he had for the rest of Rush's career.

 

When you combine bloated and murky with painful amounts of upper mids and treble, what do you get?

 

Vapor Trails.  You get Vapor Trails.

[treeduck]

On 8/25/2023 at 8:03 PM, edhunter said:

Grace sounds very cold to me. As much as I would want a Steinberger to relive my teen years through a mid-life crisis, it really did sound like shit. The tones of each instrument just did not seem to blend well.  I love the songs, they just needed to be recorded with warmer-sounding instruments.