CA vs SA

[vital signz]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 10 2012, 04:19 PM)

After my initial listen yesterday I must say that CA is nowhere near as focused as S&A. It is much more meandering. There is a disconnect between much of the vocal lines and the supporting music. There is no real sense of cohesion. There are some great textures and some parts are intriguing but I think the strongest tracks are the first two and the Wreckers, which is the least Rush like track on the album. It has the most impactful melody. For the most part there is a wash of guitars. I like the the really rare instances of bare, punchy guitars which only happens occasionally. I would say it doesn't suck, but it's not great. But that's me. I expect a lot from Rush. I rank it higher than HYF which is really the only bad Rush album.

Well although you are certainly entitled to your opinion, you are by a large margin in the minority here! And I would respectfully disagree with you that CA is meandering. I haven't seen this band as focused since 1979.

Edited June 11, 2012 by vital signz

[Mr. Henry Gale]

S&A bad

 

CA good

 

Edited June 11, 2012 by Mr. Henry Gale

[aaronrusso]

i love SA, but even from the first listen i knew CA was just miles ahead

[Enemy Within 77]

QUOTE (aaronrusso @ Jun 11 2012, 01:35 AM)

i love SA, but even from the first listen i knew CA was just miles ahead

[CrossedSignals]

I gotta say, while I prefer CA over S&A (the music is better), S&A is a beautifully engineered and mixed record. It sounds very full and lush.

 

CA sounds a little pinched and harsh to me. There's isn't a lot of room to breathe. And I KNOW, I know, I haven't heard the actual CD-quality version yet, so maybe the mix will sound radically different there, but I doubt it.

[Barchetta82]

QUOTE (Snowman @ Jun 10 2012, 12:05 AM)

I hate the word plodding. S&A is not plodding. There are at least 2 tracks that comes up in my top 30 Rush songs, Armour & Sword and Working Them Angels. Listened to these tracks yesterday and they are increadibly strong tracks. As well as 5-6 other top quality tracks. What S&A lacks compared to CA is everything. The energy in how they treat their instruments, elaborated instrumental themes, solid, strong melodies throughout, use of strings/synths, etc.... Obviusouly CA sweeps floor with S&A. They are 2 completely different albums so I cant really compare them against each other. They are equally different as VT was to S&A. I still love the good songs on S&A and it still is an very good album.

I love me some Armor and Sword and Workin' Them Angels - especially live!!!

 

[lifeson90]

as an overall album CA blows S&A outa the water

 

S&A has one or two nice moments, far cry & bravest face like totally awesome but every single freakin track on CA is great rush

 

after S&A i honestly wasnt expecting something THIS good

[presto123]

QUOTE (CrossedSignals @ Jun 11 2012, 02:29 AM)

I gotta say, while I prefer CA over S&A (the music is better), S&A is a beautifully engineered and mixed record. It sounds very full and lush. CA sounds a little pinched and harsh to me. There's isn't a lot of room to breathe. And I KNOW, I know, I haven't heard the actual CD-quality version yet, so maybe the mix will sound radically different there, but I doubt it.

I tend to agree with you a little bit there. I find it to be a slightly weird mix in that some parts of songs are clear and some are not. I think Nick is doing a fantastic job overall but IMO they should use him only as producer(arrangement ideas and performances) and get somebody else to engineer.(not Chycki) Just think if this record sounded crystal clear AND heavy like Counterparts. Would be even more mind blowing if that is possible.

[Stormtron]

My main problem with S&A is that it's front loaded. The first half is pretty good (minus TLB), and then after TWTWB it falls off a cliff. MalNar is the only thing I like after that. There's not one song on CA that I don't like.

[Gompers]

VT? I though this was about CA vs S&A?

 

But since it was brought up, VT sucks the left one especially in the lack of guitar leads, weak melodies, and horrid production, whereas S&A is great start to finish encompassing the entire of Rush with a great mix. Comparatively, S&A still edges out CA. S&A has much more dynamic music and had more heart especially with Alex's playing. He rocked hard and then was able to be mellow extraordinarily with Hope, showing off all aspects of his talent. S&A is much more well rounded where CA seems more like a last hurrah. CA does have some great material but already as an entire piece gets tedious. I did notice though, when listening to a mix of tunes this weekend, where CA cuts where imported, they do stand alone quite well. I didn't find this so much with S&A. And actually, VT stands alone better with individual songs. In fact, I prefer to listen to VT in bits and pieces.

[EmotionDetector]

QUOTE (canadianice @ Jun 9 2012, 11:43 PM)

In my mind they are both very cool albums

[metaldad]

S&A sucks donkey meat . Of the 3 songs i have heard from CA , i already like it more

[J2112YYZ]

I like CA better than S&A. S&A didn't age too well for me because the only songs I listen to from it with any regularity now are Far Cry, Armor & Sword and The Way The Wind Blows.

 

Of course the same thing could happen for me with the new album in a couple years, who knows?

[ALifeson85]

I definately favor CA over S&A. S&A does have a handful to decent tunes (Far Cry, Armor & Sword, TMMB, Bravest Face, and a couple others), but it also has a much more softer / contemporary feel to it. CA is MUCH more heavy, aggressive, and powerful - while at the same time, having a more prog feel than S&A.

The first time I listened to S&A, only 3 or 4 songs grabbed my attention right away. With CA, ALL but 2 tracks grabbed me right away. It took a few listens for me to warm up to Halo Effect and Wish Them Well (though I'm STILL in the process of getting myself fully into WTW) - but everything else - The Anarchist, The Wreckers, Headlong Flight, 7 Cities, The Garden, and especially the title track, (and of course Caravan and BU2B) - pulled me in the very first listen.

[condemned2bfree]

Production

 

Sna has very polished mixing. Acoustic guitars shimmer and are limited as are all the instruments in terms of production. There are many many layers here with the instruments and vocals, something that does not always add to a listening experience for me. The vocals are great on here. Its compressed considerably as is the way these days, not to vt levels. sna is an incredible sounding record.

 

CA is not as polished as sna. The acoustic guitars almost approach cat stevens warm 'woodiness' which is great. They along with most of the instruments are not limited and almost give a rattle akin to pw. Its a very direct and raw production... i really like this. I have longed for a long time that rush record an album in a way that's direct exposing their playing and instruments, giving a sense of intimacy. The instruments are isolated for the most part..so happy rush has the belief of playing and melodies than relying on layers. The vocals are more exposed(no layers) and ged seems to be singing higher. Neils drums sound rich and warm too. ..nick has played such an important part in this album in so many ways. Its still quite compressed, its something i wish didn't happen these days, giving more head space. I prefer how this is mixed/produced to sna -fantastic.

 

Song writing.

 

Sna. Subjective territory really and it's obviously my opinion, but i always felt the boys were reaching for something they couldn't quite grasp with this record. Conviction is always central to songwriting, subjective too, i never felt it with this record. Rush has always been primarily a playing band, this for the most part, is in the background. While a traditional songwriting approach seems the main focusl. There are great tunes on here (where playing showcases are in the instrumentals) , no question, there are also duds. The cohesiveness and continuity is erratic as a whole.

 

 

CA What a beauty! Back is the exciting playing of rush - the main reason I loved them...all those years ago. The songs are just fantastic. But unlike sna, something connected straight away. Songs that i didn't really like initially are becoming favourites...and i want to explore this album!

sna and arrows i listened to through loyalty rather than out of genuine interest and excitement. There are so many great tunes on here that have very melodic vocal lines. Rushs great playing are intertwined with great song's..... hooks melodies and all.

Ca has such a strong diverse range of songs, Rush have really outdone themselves with this one. After listening, im still humming these songs. The other major point is with CA, is that i enjoy listening to the whole album, rather like dsotm, this album flows. Whereby tracks like bu2b2 make sense in the larger scheme of things. Im hard pushed to think of an album rush has done, where this is done so well.

 

Its still early days, and i may tone down my excitement through the objectivity of time, its still been such a long time since i've enjoyed a rush album like this, no matter what time frame.

 

sn 7/10

 

ca 9/10 Its in the top ten rush albums for me..... jostling upwards!

 

[Todem]

One thing I love to do is see them perform the songs live first before I go back and compare it to other albums (and of course the previous release).

 

I love Snakes and Arrows. I think it is one of the better Rush albums in the catalog. So I had high expectations of Clockwork Angels.

 

They have met and exceeded them. But the albums are two different animals in so many ways.

 

I need to let time be the judge. Snakes has held up for me after 5 years. There are some fantastic songs on that album and a lot of good ones.

 

So far CA is blowing me away. So I am enjoying it to the fullest and probably will not listen to any other Rush album till after I see them in November.

 

It's all about Clockwork Angels for me for a while. And I can not wait to see this thing performed....in it's entirity as I think we will see the entire record performed front to back.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Todem

[Gompers]

QUOTE (Todem @ Jun 11 2012, 10:49 AM)

One thing I love to do is see them perform the songs live first before I go back and compare it to other albums (and of course the previous release). I love Snakes and Arrows. I think it is one of the better Rush albums in the catalog. So I had high expectations of Clockwork Angels. They have met and exceeded them. But the albums are two different animals in so many ways. I need to let time be the judge. Snakes has held up for me after 5 years. There are some fantastic songs on that album and a lot of good ones. So far CA is blowing me away. So I am enjoying it to the fullest and probably will not listen to any other Rush album till after I see them in November. It's all about Clockwork Angels for me for a while. And I can not wait to see this thing performed....in it's entirity as I think we will see the entire record performed front to back.

S&A used to blow me away, now it just is one of their better releases. I fully expect CA to settle in the same way.

[Kelly D]

QUOTE (aaronrusso @ Jun 11 2012, 02:35 AM)

i love SA, but even from the first listen i knew CA was just miles ahead

Totally agreed.

[Enemy Within 77]

QUOTE (metaldad @ Jun 11 2012, 08:32 AM)

S&A sucks donkey meat . Of the 3 songs i have heard from CA , i already like it more

[D3strukt]

I like S&A. It's a solid record all the way through. It's a bit acoustic-y though. Which gets annoying after a while. Clockwork Angels does better at impregnating my ears.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

I haven't heard the mp3s, I am going from my CD in the fan pack. I listened to it again in my car. It sounded better there than over my studio monitors.

 

The guitars are a wash for the most part still and the whole thing sound overly compressed, not as bad as VT but the early part of the album is hard to listen to for me. There is NO space, just a dense wash. I like the bass tone for the most part. There is a a jam quality to just about every song. That might be great for the Greatful Dead, but this is Rush. I think some things will come across better live but much of this stuff sounds forced or just sort of lays there. The material has a sameness to it, perhaps that's the concept.

 

Shortly after listening in my car Sun and Moon came on my iPod and it was like night and day. There is more punch and intention in that recording than CA.

 

There is so much going on in every track that it is hard to hear what the intention is. When I think about how strong S&A is the new album lacks the same intensity. It sounds jammy and lacks focus. It sounds more like they a "trying" rather than "doing" compared to much of their catalog.

Case in point: the fact that Neil used the same technique of being conducted by the producer as he had done for his guest spot on whatever album he guested on. That is not Neil Peart as I have come to appreciate him. Sure, he's entitled to take a different approach and it is cool that he did, but I do not feel the end result is as good as when he works every last note down to the last rest. That is one way in which CA lacks focus. It doesn't have Neil's usual attention to detail.

 

I may be in the minority, but I don't feel the need to "blow them" as it were nor feel that everything they do is "awesome" because even they would say that it isn't. They're in their late 50's now and while I appreciate their artistic efforts not everything they do is great and the new album falls into that category. The mix is particularly harsh where S&A is open, despite having some dense moments. CA is smashed and shoehorned so for me this is a step back, not forward.

 

It's not like I work in audio professionally or anything...

Edited June 11, 2012 by CygnusX-1Bk2

[Todem]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 11 2012, 05:53 PM)

I haven't heard the mp3s, I am going from my CD in the fan pack. I listened to it again in my car. It sounded better there than over my studio monitors. The guitars are a wash for the most part still and the whole thing sound overly compressed, not as bad as VT but the early part of the album is hard to listen to for me. There is NO space, just a dense wash. I like the bass tone for the most part. There is a a jam quality to just about every song. That might be great for the Greatful Dead, but this is Rush. I think some things will come across better live but much of this stuff sounds forced or just sort of lays there. The material has a sameness to it, perhaps that's the concept. Shortly after listening in my car Sun and Moon came on my iPod and it was like night and day. There is more punch and intention in that recording than CA. There is so much going on in every track that it is hard to hear what the intention is. When I think about how strong S&A is the new album lacks the same intensity. It sounds jammy and lacks focus. It sounds more like they a "trying" rather than "doing" compared to much of their catalog. Case in point: the fact that Neil used the same technique of being conducted by the producer as he had done for his guest spot on whatever album he guested on. That is not Neil Peart as I have come to appreciate him. Sure, he's entitled to take a different approach and it is cool that he did, but I do not feel the end result is as good as when he works every last note down to the last rest. That is one way in which CA lacks focus. It doesn't have Neil's usual attention to detail. I may be in the minority, but I don't feel the need to "blow them" as it were nor feel that everything they do is "awesome" because even they would say that it isn't. They're in their late 50's now and while I appreciate their artistic efforts not everything they do is great and the new album falls into that category. The mix is particularly harsh where S&A is open, despite having some dense moments. CA is smashed and shoehorned so for me this is a step back, not forward. It's not like I work in audio professionally or anything...

Sonically....Snakes is better. But it is subjective on the songs themselves.

 

I love the new stuff, the adventurous approach. I know where your coming from in regards to Neil. He is much looser on CA. The precision you always come to know with Neil is not as laser focused...but he has been playing like this since Test For Echo. With each successive release becoming looser and looser. Test For Echo had much more precision than CA....but far less than any release before it.

 

Their music has gone in another direction since Counterparts.

 

I happen to love Snakes and Arrows too.

 

Clockwork Angels is far different and that is what has me happy.

 

 

Again.

[Gompers]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 11 2012, 05:53 PM)

The guitars are a wash for the most part still and the whole thing sound overly compressed, not as bad as VT but the early part of the album is hard to listen to for me. There is NO space, just a dense wash. I like the bass tone for the most part. There is a a jam quality to just about every song. That might be great for the Greatful Dead, but this is Rush. I think some things will come across better live but much of this stuff sounds forced or just sort of lays there. The material has a sameness to it, perhaps that's the concept. Shortly after listening in my car Sun and Moon came on my iPod and it was like night and day. There is more punch and intention in that recording than CA.

Now that you mention it, I get the same thing. Dense is a great word to use. Lack of definition. Funny thing, with CP, Kevin Shirley simplified what Alex was doing, and Alex talked about not being encumbered by effects. This resulted in the cleaner sound, or punch, as you mention. However, I feel the bass and drums are on top of the mix too much.

 

Nonetheless, good call.

 

edit:

Found the interview where Alex talks about simplifying:

QUOTE

SW: "Nobody's Hero", from the brand new Rush album Counterparts. As most Rush fans probably know, drummer Neil Peart supplies the words, while Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson sculpt the sound. And in the case of Counterparts, sculpting the sound meant showing off the goods of this very intense, very very impressive power trio, with lots of rock and roll guitar right up front. And it was a concept that Alex Lifeson had no trouble warming up to. AL: This is something that we discussed on the last tour a number of times; about having to focus more on the three-piece, and kind of recapturing some of the energy that we used to feel as a tighter three-piece unit I think, before we brought keyboards into a more predominant role in the picture of our music. Certainly the style of recording that Kevin Shirley, who was the recording engineer, used was very very direct, and captured the least amount of resistance from the speakers to the tape machine. It was just a matter of plugging into the amp and miking it; I wasn't really encumbered by any effects, we got into some things later, but certainly for the bulk of the guitars and for all the bed tracks, it was just straight ahead. I sat in a studio for the first time in 12 years and recorded guitars out there, which I've always stayed away from, figuring that in the control room you have a sense of control. There's immediate communcation; if you want the monitors down they can go down, if you want them up they can go up. So, I really wasn't into doing it, but Kevin talked me into it. And after a couple of days getting used to it, it was great! You could feel the wood of the guitar vibrating against your body, and it was more susceptible to that really cool feedback, and it was your own little world; it was a little bit of an escape. I don't think I'd go back now. GL: Can I ask you a question? AL: Yeah. GL: Did you actually say, "encumbered by effects"? AL: Yes, Ged, believe it or not I actually said that. GL: Did you actually said that phrase, or have you been possessed by some sort of logical devil? AL: I've matured a lot in the last couple of months. GL: Say Hallelujiah! AL: You know something, you get into a particular way of doing things, and it's very comfortable, and you get a little resistant to change sometimes, especially when it comes to sound of a guitar. I mean, I like to think this is my own particular sound, one that I've developed over a number of years. For that reason alone it's time to change it; you know, and mix it up a bit. And I have been very resistant to this kind of an approach to recording the guitar; I always thought that we could get power and size and total depth in a number of other ways. But, I have to say that after doing it this way, there's only one way to get a really great electric guitar sound, and that is to plug the thing into the amp and turn it up. And the shortest distance from the guitar to the amp is the best and the most effective. GL: This is not the guy I've known for the last 13 years. I don't know who this imposter is, but get him out of this control room! AL: Doh! You are a liar! Fake! Imposter!

Edited June 12, 2012 by Gompers

[Gompers]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 11 2012, 05:53 PM)

There is so much going on in every track that it is hard to hear what the intention is. When I think about how strong S&A is the new album lacks the same intensity. It sounds jammy and lacks focus. It sounds more like they a "trying" rather than "doing" compared to much of their catalog.

This reminds me of the early days, when I felt there was so much going on, yet there weren't layers over layers of recorded instruments. If I think of a song like La Villa, even though it is as busy as hell, there is defintely less, and that less resulted in more.

[Presto-digitation]

I'm not going to read this thread (but I will post in it!!). I really have no desire to read a bunch (more) of beating down S&A to lift up CA. It's old, it's stale...and it's pretty lame. I get that it's natural to compare recent releases, but shitting on S&A is the mob mentality around here....many of the same people who used to go on about this album, I might add. (I know who you are!!!)

 

CA is great in its very own right, compared to nothing else. It doesn't need to stand next to an album that disappointed you to be fine.

 

I'm glad that they're so different (to me anyhow). It actually makes S&A's place in their catalogue that much sweeter and unique.