Which do You Love More ?

[Dscrapre]

I already paid for the album and I'll probably be buying it two more times as gifts for friends of mine. Plus, I bought concert tickets, t-shirts, tour books, and oh yeah.... EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE OTHER ALBUMS! Because of me getting the leak, at least one other person I know is going to go buy the album.

 

They're still getting my money, which they so richly deserve. I just wanted to hear new music by the band I love as soon as it became available. I've done nothing wrong here.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dscrapre

[Mr. Not]

You pretty much all fail.

[JohnnyBlaze]

QUOTE (Just an Escape Artist @ Jun 7 2012, 12:30 PM)

Now that someone has taken it upon themselves to leak the new Rush album against the wishes of the band that we all say we love, I wonder how we all feel about ourselves knowing that we are ripping off our favorite band. I see all these threads about how great the album is or "the official whatever" thread, and i am thinking, wait a minute, the album is not out yet. I am sure many of you will rationalze that you will purchase later. Maybe so, but many won't, that is a fact, so the band we love is getting ripped off. We now have about a million threads about the new album that Rush has not released the album yet. Rush did not intend for anyone to hear it until it is released next week. Rush has stated thier distaste for this since VT was leaked, but here we are again pissing on the band the band once again. Does this not bother anyones concience, or do we all just care about ourselves? Just a thought as I wait "Lit up in anticipation" for June 12 Let the flaming begin

Hey man, where do I fit in? I love myself more and I did NOT listen to any leaks. Is there a special category for self-centered bastards like myself?

 

You will never EVER convince anyone that listened to these leaks that they ripped off the band. But you probably already know that.

[deslock]

I downloaded it without using file-sharing (specifically to avoid helping anyone that isn't going to buy it), I have the fanpack on preorder, and I'll probably also get it at Best Buy or iTunes/Amazon-MP3 on Tuesday.

 

Am I contributing to Rush's decline in album sales? No.

 

Do I feel stupid for feeding the troll? Yes.

[Hatchetaxe&saw]

I'm listening to my fanpack cd.

 

Guilt free zone baby!

 

(And, I've the vinyl ordered, which means I've paid for at least 2 downloading ne'er-do-wells! )

[Tony R]

QUOTE (Just an Escape Artist @ Jun 7 2012, 04:30 AM)

Now that someone has taken it upon themselves to leak the new Rush album against the wishes of the band that we all say we love, I wonder how we all feel about ourselves knowing that we are ripping off our favorite band. I see all these threads about how great the album is or "the official whatever" thread, and i am thinking, wait a minute, the album is not out yet. I am sure many of you will rationalze that you will purchase later. Maybe so, but many won't, that is a fact, so the band we love is getting ripped off. We now have about a million threads about the new album that Rush has not released the album yet. Rush did not intend for anyone to hear it until it is released next week. Rush has stated thier distaste for this since VT was leaked, but here we are again pissing on the band the band once again. Does this not bother anyones concience, or do we all just care about ourselves? Just a thought as I wait "Lit up in anticipation" for June 12 Let the flaming begin

It's is a difficult subject. I think the rip or rips would still be out there whether we or anyone accessed them or not and there is no profit to be made by the "ripper" although there is theoretically profit to be lost once the file is out there. Even if record companies took the bold decision to allow customers who had pre-purchased the disc to download a low bit rate encrypted digital version say a week before release date, the album would still leak and those that choose to download "for free" would continue to do so. Personally I have no problems accessing any album I've already purchased as I feel that my downloading it does not contribute to the process of robbing the artist - the original uploader has made no profit from it and I have only gained time by downloading it. At the end of the day I do not believe a band like Rush loses much money due to piracy as most of the illegal downloads (not done by fans) would never have been sales at all in fact if only a tiny percentage of the illegal downloaders become fans and attend gigs then the band win that way.

 

Piracy is obviously wrong and it is destructive and ultimately it costs the consumers more than it does the artist. Look at the price of concert tickets for starters, and merch. Think about the price of cd's and Blu-rays, the special editions, the re-releases etc - all part of retrieving lost revenue and squeezing the real fans to compensate.

[Tony R]

QUOTE (beherit @ Jun 7 2012, 05:44 AM)

Man, if I don't buy this album, Rush won't be able to pay the bills

If everyone thought like that they definitely wouldn't...so in effect you are relying on other people to pay for you. Nice thinking there Dick Whittington.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Tony R

[Lerxster]

QUOTE (Just an Escape Artist @ Jun 6 2012, 10:30 PM)

Now that someone has taken it upon themselves to leak the new Rush album against the wishes of the band that we all say we love, I wonder how we all feel about ourselves knowing that we are ripping off our favorite band. I see all these threads about how great the album is or "the official whatever" thread, and i am thinking, wait a minute, the album is not out yet. I am sure many of you will rationalze that you will purchase later. Maybe so, but many won't, that is a fact, so the band we love is getting ripped off. We now have about a million threads about the new album that Rush has not released the album yet. Rush did not intend for anyone to hear it until it is released next week. Rush has stated thier distaste for this since VT was leaked, but here we are again pissing on the band the band once again. Does this not bother anyones concience, or do we all just care about ourselves? Just a thought as I wait "Lit up in anticipation" for June 12 Let the flaming begin

You cut a wide swath there. You may not realize the fanpacks have been shipping for a week now, and hundreds of folks got their album early.. legitimately. And they are posting here too. Your thread is rendered moot by that fact alone. Your timing sucks. Not to mention.. well, I'll leave it at that.

[Rush Cocky]

QUOTE (Just an Escape Artist @ Jun 6 2012, 11:30 PM)

Now that someone has taken it upon themselves to leak the new Rush album against the wishes of the band that we all say we love, I wonder how we all feel about ourselves knowing that we are ripping off our favorite band. I see all these threads about how great the album is or "the official whatever" thread, and i am thinking, wait a minute, the album is not out yet. I am sure many of you will rationalze that you will purchase later. Maybe so, but many won't, that is a fact, so the band we love is getting ripped off. We now have about a million threads about the new album that Rush has not released the album yet. Rush did not intend for anyone to hear it until it is released next week. Rush has stated thier distaste for this since VT was leaked, but here we are again pissing on the band the band once again. Does this not bother anyones concience, or do we all just care about ourselves? Just a thought as I wait "Lit up in anticipation" for June 12 Let the flaming begin

 

This is right on point.

 

It's also exactly why I'm waiting until I have the finished product in my hands before listening to it.

[Rush Cocky]

QUOTE (Lerxster @ Jun 7 2012, 09:50 AM)

You may not realize the fanpacks have been shipping for a week now, and hundreds of folks got their album early.. legitimately. And they are posting here too. Your thread is rendered moot by that fact alone. Your timing sucks. Not to mention.. well, I'll leave it at that.

We all realize that, but it doesn't take away from the argument.....people have an entitlement mentality in this world now, and can rationalize anything to suit their own selfish desires.

 

I'm sure if we interviewed Rush today and you asked them about people downloading the album from the Internet, we KNOW what their answer would be. NEVER would any artist say "yeah sure, get it early, because I trust the integrity of our fanbase to go out and buy it anyway".

 

The issue here is not an album, it's an attitude.

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 7 2012, 07:07 AM)

QUOTE (Lerxster @ Jun 7 2012, 09:50 AM) You may not realize the fanpacks have been shipping for a week now, and hundreds of folks got their album early.. legitimately.  And they are posting here too.  Your thread is rendered moot by that fact alone.  Your timing sucks. Not to mention.. well, I'll leave it at that. We all realize that, but it doesn't take away from the argument.....people have an entitlement mentality in this world now, and can rationalize anything to suit their own selfish desires.   I'm sure if we interviewed Rush today and you asked them about people downloading the album from the Internet, we KNOW what their answer would be. NEVER would any artist say "yeah sure, get it early, because I trust the integrity of our fanbase to go out and buy it anyway".   The issue here is not an album, it's an attitude. Understood, but if you're sincerely going to buy it (or especially if you've ALREADY pre-ordered it), what's the harm in listening to it early given the chance? If you want to listen to it in CD quality with the physical product in front of you for the first time for whatever reason, that's cool and a completely valid choice, but why put down the people who didn't want to wait who are still going to be buying the album and are not just getting it for free? What harm is being done?   It's already out there on these sites regardless of whether anyone downloads it or not. You could say, yes, but if no one ever downloaded it for free then people wouldn't upload it and put it online in the first place and the band would never lose out from anyone, but that's obviously not how things work these days.

[Lerxster]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 7 2012, 09:07 AM)

QUOTE (Lerxster @ Jun 7 2012, 09:50 AM) You may not realize the fanpacks have been shipping for a week now, and hundreds of folks got their album early.. legitimately.  And they are posting here too.  Your thread is rendered moot by that fact alone.  Your timing sucks. Not to mention.. well, I'll leave it at that. We all realize that, but it doesn't take away from the argument.....people have an entitlement mentality in this world now, and can rationalize anything to suit their own selfish desires.   I'm sure if we interviewed Rush today and you asked them about people downloading the album from the Internet, we KNOW what their answer would be. NEVER would any artist say "yeah sure, get it early, because I trust the integrity of our fanbase to go out and buy it anyway".   The issue here is not an album, it's an attitude. Okay, it's the attitude. But is this the right forum for his point? I would guess 98% (or very high 90's) of members of this site who downloaded the leak or whatever are still buying the cd, or the legal download from itunes, etc. If OP wants to change the world, this isn't the best place to start.

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (Just an Escape Artist @ Jun 6 2012, 10:30 PM)

Now that someone has taken it upon themselves to leak the new Rush album against the wishes of the band that we all say we love, I wonder how we all feel about ourselves knowing that we are ripping off our favorite band. I see all these threads about how great the album is or "the official whatever" thread, and i am thinking, wait a minute, the album is not out yet. I am sure many of you will rationalze that you will purchase later. Maybe so, but many won't, that is a fact, so the band we love is getting ripped off. We now have about a million threads about the new album that Rush has not released the album yet. Rush did not intend for anyone to hear it until it is released next week. Rush has stated thier distaste for this since VT was leaked, but here we are again pissing on the band the band once again. Does this not bother anyones concience, or do we all just care about ourselves? Just a thought as I wait "Lit up in anticipation" for June 12 Let the flaming begin

The band we love isn't getting rip off as long as we attend their shows. That's where they make their money! It is a well known fact that bands make minimal $$$ of record sales. Besides we all go out and buy everything they produce anyway, even if its toilet paper or panties. The only people getting ripped off are the Record Companies and they have plenty of dough!

 

[phoenix87]

I feel great about myself.

 

I make no excuses or justifications and have no regrets.

 

I feel fantastic.

[LeaveMyThingAlone]

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (LeaveMyThingAlone @ Jun 7 2012, 07:45 AM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 7 2012, 09:13 AM) QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 7 2012, 07:07 AM) QUOTE (Lerxster @ Jun 7 2012, 09:50 AM) You may not realize the fanpacks have been shipping for a week now, and hundreds of folks got their album early.. legitimately.  And they are posting here too.  Your thread is rendered moot by that fact alone.  Your timing sucks. Not to mention.. well, I'll leave it at that. We all realize that, but it doesn't take away from the argument.....people have an entitlement mentality in this world now, and can rationalize anything to suit their own selfish desires.   I'm sure if we interviewed Rush today and you asked them about people downloading the album from the Internet, we KNOW what their answer would be. NEVER would any artist say "yeah sure, get it early, because I trust the integrity of our fanbase to go out and buy it anyway".   The issue here is not an album, it's an attitude. Understood, but if you're sincerely going to buy it (or especially if you've ALREADY pre-ordered it), what's the harm in listening to it early given the chance? If you want to listen to it in CD quality with the physical product in front of you for the first time for whatever reason, that's cool and a completely valid choice, but why put down the people who didn't want to wait who are still going to be buying the album and are not just getting it for free? What harm is being done?   It's already out there on these sites regardless of whether anyone downloads it or not. You could say, yes, but if no one ever downloaded it for free then people wouldn't upload it and put it online in the first place and the band would never lose out from anyone, but that's obviously not how things work these days. It's a very gray area.   Kind of like stealing a hundred dollars from some rich fool that wouldn't even know he's missing it because you desperately need the money when you KNOW you're going to give it back. And say a month later you've given back the money and he never knew it was gone. People have complained about how Rush have done things forever. I've done it plenty - wishing they released albums more than every 5 years instead of endless touring, taking apart their music bit by bit and over-analyzing everything, etc. Some decisions of theirs I really agree with, and others I really don't.   That's the thing though. Rush doesn't care. They do things their own way, whether any given fan likes it or not. They don't cater to how I or how anyone wants them to do things or thinks they should do things. That's how it should be.   Similarly, if I decide to grab a copy of the album a week early because I can, knowing full well 150% that I'm buying the CD the day it's released anyway, why should anyone care how I do things? You can say yes but it's still wrong, that's not how Rush wants it done! So? They don't respect my personal wishes and I don't respect theirs. I apologize if I'm too big a fan of their music to resist. Stick a big piece of chocolate cake in front of your eyes and don't take a bite if that's your choice. Some of us aren't as strong.   If they really didn't want it downloaded a week early, they shouldn't have licensed it to Classic Rock magazine knowing they'd be arriving at people's doors a week early because they knew full well the second it was in anyone's hands it would be all over the internet. It was a miracle they kept the album under wraps as long as they did. And even if they did manage to prevent a leak until the day it was released, that still wouldn't stop the people who would only download it and not buy it. I'm not in that category. I'm buying it ASAP Tuesday morning.   Seriously, what's the BFD? If you want to deprive yourself for the sake of morality and wait till June 12th, go for it - totally valid point of view. Some of us can't wait. In the end we're really big fans who can't contain our enthusiasm. Is that really that bad a thing? Is that really a bad thing for Rush that it has such wildly enthusiastic fans who would chance a download because they can't wait to hear their new music? Call it rationalizing and justifying or whatever if you must, but I'm telling you, no one who's downloaded it and who's been enjoying the hell out of the new album for days is going to feel bad about that because you've decided to deprive yourself of the new Rush album a few days longer than the rest of us.   Why should we feel guilty for our enjoyment if we know in our hearts we're not ripping off the band since we're getting the CD anyway? Would that make YOU feel better since you think we're cheating somehow that at least we feel bad or guilty about it? The OP certainly thinks we should feel guilty.

Edited June 7, 2012 by rushgoober

[danielmclark]

Look, this is very simple. There are two arguments being made.

 

1. Philosophical. It's "wrong" to download an album. You guys can argue that til you're blue in the face because like ALL philosophical arguments, it can't be won.

 

2. Monetary. It "damages" the artist. Well, no. It doesn't. This is a very clear argument. Only those people that don't buy the album who otherwise would have damage the artist. Many of us have bought this album already or have it on pre-order. Our downloading doesn't damage the band in the least.

 

The last argument, which barely counts as one, is what the band wants. They don't want us getting it early... well, too bad. Welcome to the world where you don't always get what you want.

 

Rather than cry and bitch and moan on behalf of the band, how about coming up with a solution? Maybe figure out a way the band can capitalize on leaks? They can, you know. I've been an internet marketer long enough that I can probably tick off a half a dozen ways myself. But the band, the industry, is set in their ways. They're doing things the way things were done 20 years ago, pre-internet. And as long as they keep that up, there will be leaks - and pompous asses to tell us what horrible people we are.

[wilb1972]

 

I love myself more.

 

You know, you can tell me selfishness is wrong -- but it was for me not you that I came to download these songs!

[Rush Cocky]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 7 2012, 11:11 AM)

People have complained about how Rush have done things forever. I've done it plenty - wishing they released albums more than every 5 years instead of endless touring, taking apart their music bit by bit and over-analyzing everything, etc. Some decisions of theirs I really agree with, and others I really don't. That's the thing though. Rush doesn't care. They do things their own way, whether any given fan likes it or not. They don't cater to how I or how anyone wants them to do things or thinks they should do things. That's how it should be. Similarly, if I decide to grab a copy of the album a week early because I can, knowing full well 150% that I'm buying the CD the day it's released anyway, why should anyone care how I do things? You can say yes but it's still wrong, that's not how Rush wants it done! So? They don't respect my personal wishes and I don't respect theirs. I apologize if I'm too big a fan of their music to resist. Stick a big piece of chocolate cake in front of your eyes and don't take a bite if that's your choice. Some of us aren't as strong. If they really didn't want it downloaded a week early, they shouldn't have licensed it to Classic Rock magazine knowing they'd be arriving at people's doors a week early because they knew full well the second it was in anyone's hands it would be all over the internet. It was a miracle they kept the album under wraps as long as they did. And even if they did manage to prevent a leak until the day it was released, that still wouldn't stop the people who would only download it and not buy it. I'm not in that category. I'm buying it ASAP Tuesday morning. Seriously, what's the BFD? If you want to deprive yourself for the sake of morality and wait till June 12th, go for it - totally valid point of view. Some of us can't wait. In the end we're really big fans who can't contain our enthusiasm. Is that really that bad a thing? Is that really a bad thing for Rush that it has such wildly enthusiastic fans who would chance a download because they can't wait to hear their new music? Call it rationalizing and justifying or whatever if you must, but I'm telling you, no one who's downloaded it and who's been enjoying the hell out of the new album for days is going to feel bad about that because you've decided to deprive yourself of the new Rush album a few days longer than the rest of us. Why should we feel guilty for our enjoyment if we know in our hearts we're not ripping off the band since we're getting the CD anyway? Would that make YOU feel better since you think we're cheating somehow that at least we feel bad or guilty about it? The OP certainly thinks we should feel guilty.

This has to be the most eloquent rationalization in this thread......but it IS a rationalization nonetheless.

 

Ask yourself: If you were busted for downloading the album before you had legitimately paid for the artist's work, and you were in a court of law and offered to the judge "well I was gonna pay for it next week"....do you honestly believe you would get a "not guilty" verdict based on your intentions?

 

Deep down we all know we shouldn't get the album without paying for it, but many of us do it anyway. We just don't believe that we're going to get caught because it's the Internet, they can't find me, Rush doesn't care, etc.

 

I don't think the OP intended a "guilt trip" for anyone....he's just calling attention to the fact of what people have openly admitted on this board to doing, regardless of the justification given.

 

And personally I think it's pretty sad that matters of simple morality are open for debate....self-denial continues to be most underrated and undervalued.

[metaldad]

I love me some metaldad

[metaldad]

QUOTE (Just an Escape Artist @ Jun 6 2012, 10:30 PM)

We now have about a million threads about the new album that Rush has not released the album yet.

A million and 1, thank's...................

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 7 2012, 10:31 AM)

Ask yourself: If you were busted for downloading the album before you had legitimately paid for the artist's work, and you were in a court of law and offered to the judge "well I was gonna pay for it next week"....do you honestly believe you would get a "not guilty" verdict based on your intentions?

Okay, how about: "Well, judge, I downloaded it, but I paid for the album already in the form of the UK fan pack which is currently on a plane on its way to my house? Oh, and I've already pre-ordered the vinyl from Amazon, and while the money hasn't been charged to my credit card yet, that's a hell of a lot more than just saying that I intend to buy the album."

 

You can try to argue that downloads hurt the band all you like, but the fact is that they don't hurt them significantly enough to matter - especially to a band with a dedicated following. Preaching to people in this forum about supporting Rush is like walking into a church to berate people and tell them they should be following Christ.

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 7 2012, 09:31 AM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 7 2012, 11:11 AM) People have complained about how Rush have done things forever.  I've done it plenty - wishing they released albums more than every 5 years instead of endless touring, taking apart their music bit by bit and over-analyzing everything, etc.  Some decisions of theirs I really agree with, and others I really don't. That's the thing though.  Rush doesn't care.  They do things their own way, whether any given fan likes it or not.  They don't cater to how I or how anyone wants them to do things or thinks they should do things.  That's how it should be. Similarly, if I decide to grab a copy of the album a week early because I can, knowing full well 150% that I'm buying the CD the day it's released anyway, why should anyone care how I do things?  You can say yes but it's still wrong, that's not how Rush wants it done!  So?  They don't respect my personal wishes and I don't respect theirs.  I apologize if I'm too big a fan of their music to resist.  Stick a big piece of chocolate cake in front of your eyes and don't take a bite if that's your choice.  Some of us aren't as strong.  If they really didn't want it downloaded a week early, they shouldn't have licensed it to Classic Rock magazine knowing they'd be arriving at people's doors a week early because they knew full well the second it was in anyone's hands it would be all over the internet.  It was a miracle they kept the album under wraps as long as they did.  And even if they did manage to prevent a leak until the day it was released, that still wouldn't stop the people who would only download it and not buy it.  I'm not in that category.  I'm buying it ASAP Tuesday morning. Seriously, what's the BFD?  If you want to deprive yourself for the sake of morality and wait till June 12th, go for it - totally valid point of view.  Some of us can't wait.  In the end we're really big fans who can't contain our enthusiasm.  Is that really that bad a thing? Is that really a bad thing for Rush that it has such wildly enthusiastic fans who would chance a download because they can't wait to hear their new music?  Call it rationalizing and justifying or whatever if you must, but I'm telling you, no one who's downloaded it and who's been enjoying the hell out of the new album for days is going to feel bad about that because you've decided to deprive yourself of the new Rush album a few days longer than the rest of us.  Why should we feel guilty for our enjoyment if we know in our hearts we're not ripping off the band since we're getting the CD anyway?  Would that make YOU feel better since you think we're cheating somehow that at least we feel bad or guilty about it?  The OP certainly thinks we should feel guilty. This has to be the most eloquent rationalization in this thread......but it IS a rationalization nonetheless.   Ask yourself: If you were busted for downloading the album before you had legitimately paid for the artist's work, and you were in a court of law and offered to the judge "well I was gonna pay for it next week"....do you honestly believe you would get a "not guilty" verdict based on your intentions?   Deep down we all know we shouldn't get the album without paying for it, but many of us do it anyway. We just don't believe that we're going to get caught because it's the Internet, they can't find me, Rush doesn't care, etc.   I don't think the OP intended a "guilt trip" for anyone....he's just calling attention to the fact of what people have openly admitted on this board to doing, regardless of the justification given.   And personally I think it's pretty sad that matters of simple morality are open for debate....self-denial continues to be most underrated and undervalued. Well, I'm nothing if not eloquent in my rationalizations.   FWIW, and I know it's completely another rationalization, but this is maybe the 2nd album I've ever downloaded. I almost never ever do it, and I don't plan on making a habit of it.

[drgrendel]

Nothing is ever sacred - this applies to everyone and everything. Once an idea is set into motion, it is bound to be discovered by somebody. Feel bad about it? Nope...life is a game. I like Iron Maiden's approach to their music - share it and spread it all around (Dance of Death/Got Great Ed... promotional tour - Cleveland, OH. - Motorhead, DIO, and IM). Edited June 7, 2012 by drgrendel

[metaldad]

QUOTE (drgrendel @ Jun 7 2012, 12:58 PM)

I like Iron Maiden's approach to their music - share it and spread it all around.

And they know people will still buy it when it is released