Mangini limited role in songwriting

[Xanadoood]

I'm no DT fan. But was curious what everyone thinks of this. I sense some frustration in him. And it shows how integral original members are in a bands sound. Apparently Portnoy was a big part of the DT sound.

 

 

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-mangini-explains-his-limited-role-in-dream-theater-songwriting-process/

 

 

[Mr. Not]

Mangini's logic of taking a while to observe and adjust to the band before becoming an active songwriter is sound.

Portnoy influenced the band's direction in a way I didn't like much leading up to his leave.

 

At this point (e.g. After the astonishing) I'm ready for a more involved song writing process from all the members.

[Xanadoood]

Mangini's logic of taking a while to observe and adjust to the band before becoming an active songwriter is sound.

Portnoy influenced the band's direction in a way I didn't like much leading up to his leave.

 

At this point (e.g. After the astonishing) I'm ready for a more involved song writing process from all the members.

 

Do you think they will allow his input? It sounds like they rule with an iron fist..haha

[Mr. Not]

Mangini's logic of taking a while to observe and adjust to the band before becoming an active songwriter is sound.

Portnoy influenced the band's direction in a way I didn't like much leading up to his leave.

 

At this point (e.g. After the astonishing) I'm ready for a more involved song writing process from all the members.

 

Do you think they will allow his input? It sounds like they rule with an iron fist..haha

 

Yeah. Unless I've been fed a very false impression of these guys, they're both very talented and very kind/open. I think the problem here is that the band is trying too hard to pander to the uncertain portion of its fan-base. From releasing a self-titled "this is the epitome of dream theater" album in 2013 to releasing their "next epic rock opera, metropolis pt 2 pt 2" in 2016, it seems like they're compensating.

 

The 2013 album was great, but not their best. The 2016 album was their worst next to "When Dream and Day Unite". The biggest problem about the album aside from the massive amount of filler was that the music was written solely by Jordan & Petrucci. It's not as if they aren't capable of beautiful writing between just themselves (see: An Evening with JP & JR, or the very ending of "Illumination Theory"), but this alone isn't substantial enough for a Dream Theater album.

 

If what I think is going on here is true, then the band probably has realized their mistake by now and will release something superb next. Ever since shortly after The Astonishing's release I've been of the mentality that their next album is going to be a great comeback.

[J2112YYZ]

Wasn't even aware he did any songwriting to begin with. Always thought he was a good drummer who played with bands that needed someone solid to fill the spot.

[Xanadoood]

Wasn't even aware he did any songwriting to begin with. Always thought he was a good drummer who played with bands that needed someone solid to fill the spot.

 

That's what I was thinking as well. He's a hired gun type of guy. Amazing drummer for sure. It makes you appreciate a guy like Peart who was fortunate enough to hook up with like minded musical collaborators.

[stoopid]

If what I think is going on here is true, then the band probably has realized their mistake by now and will release something superb next. Ever since shortly after The Astonishing's release I've been of the mentality that their next album is going to be a great comeback.

 

Why do you think this or think you know this? The suck-sess of The Astonishing would tell me to expect more of this, not less. Sadly.

 

It sounds like wishful thinking to me. Reality likely has its own plans though.

[stoopid]

Portnoy is/was a very active songwriter in the band, musically and lyrically. The element he brought to the band was one of the underpinnings to the music that made DT what it became. For anyone to say "Portnoy influenced the band's direction in a way I didn't like much leading up to his leave" is really saying "I didn't like Dream Theater before the new drummer arrived".

 

I am on the other side of this spectrum, I became a fan when Images and Words was released and now don't listen to them hardly ever (and only listened to the Mangini albums out of obligation after they're released, only to be shelved due to lack of interest). I'm not blind (or deaf) and will gladly list all the DT songs pre-Mangini I don't enjoy, but notice I say SONGS. Not entire, back to back to back albums. So Portnoy's absence has, for this DT fan, made ALL the difference. It's even soured me to the band in general. Without new music to get excited about I'm forced to focus my time and attention elsewhere.

 

Mr Not, sorry to say, does NOT know what they are talking about [at best their thinking is contradictory]. And this seems like a thought I've had more than once reading their posts on this forum.

Edited March 8, 2017 by stoopid

[Segue Myles]

I don't care about Dream Theater anymore. Their music is soulless and once I've got as much joy as possible from the musicianship, it gets old fast and their is nothing left that sticks with me.

[Rod in Toronto]

I don't care about Dream Theater anymore. Their music is soulless and once I've got as much joy as possible from the musicianship, it gets old fast and their is nothing left that sticks with me.

 

We both know this opinion of yours has an expiry date, we just don´t know what it is.

 

On the issue of Mangini´s input, I think there will never be someone who´s able to replace Portnoy´s shoes exactly. Drumming wise Mangini is awesome, but the chemistry between band members of course is different since MP left. And this is something than can never be duplicated. MP cared also for the setlists, produced a few albums, handled the DVD and live releases, the finance side of the band, did most of the press...and generally set the "tone" of each release. For instance, he created the whole Octavarium concept, all those nuggets and symbolism between the numbers 5 and 8 (see here: http://dt.spatang.com/octavarium.php). It´s hard to expect someone to join and have the same influence on 04 world class musicians like he did. Actually, he didn´t come up with all his influence from scratch, it is just how the band evolved, and MP welcomed this role. In his later years with the band, the consensus was that if you wanted to contribute with lyrics, you should bring a finished product to the band, and that´s why Myung and LaBrie stopped bringing ideas. There are scenes in the "making of Systematc Chaos" where MP is directing LaBrie´s vocals where it´s clear how uncomfortable LaBrie is with his input. But the band as a whole allowed this to happen, and then I think "the monster got too big".

 

When Mangini joined, I got the impression that their releases would be more of a collective effort. John Myung apparently longed for that, and he even made it clear in one of his few lines in the audio commentary of Live at Budokan, only to be dismissed by Portnoy. But then, aside from a few songs in A Dramatic Turn of Events, whata we have is 99% Petrucci+Jordan. It took me a while to warm up to "Dramatic", and I loved their self titled album upon the very first listen. I thought they were on a Hot Streak (pun intended for those who get it), but The Astonishing was to me a major shot in the foot. It alienated a huge chunk of their fan base and didn´t attract new ones. The fact that they went straight from the Astonishing Tour into another touor playing Images & Words speaks volumes to me. If anything, I´m expecting their next release to be "Dream Theater by numbers". And for me, there´s a good chance I´ll be happy with that.

[J2112YYZ]

Portnoy is/was a very active songwriter in the band, musically and lyrically. The element he brought to the band was one of the underpinnings to the music that made DT what it became. For anyone to say "Portnoy influenced the band's direction in a way I didn't like much leading up to his leave" is really saying "I didn't like Dream Theater before the new drummer arrived".

 

I am on the other side of this spectrum, I became a fan when Images and Words was released and now don't listen to them hardly ever (and only listened to the Mangini albums out of obligation after they're released, only to be shelved due to lack of interest). I'm not blind (or deaf) and will gladly list all the DT songs pre-Mangini I don't enjoy, but notice I say SONGS. Not entire, back to back to back albums. So Portnoy's absence has, for this DT fan, made ALL the difference. It's even soured me to the band in general. Without new music to get excited about I'm forced to focus my time and attention elsewhere.

 

Mr Not, sorry to say, does NOT know what they are talking about [at best their thinking is contradictory]. And this seems like a thought I've had more than once reading their posts on this forum.

 

I think you misunderstood what Mr. Not was saying. He didn't mean he disliked everything they recorded before Mangini joined. He's talking about not liking the last few albums before Portnoy left.

Edited March 8, 2017 by J2112YYZ

[stoopid]

Portnoy is/was a very active songwriter in the band, musically and lyrically. The element he brought to the band was one of the underpinnings to the music that made DT what it became. For anyone to say "Portnoy influenced the band's direction in a way I didn't like much leading up to his leave" is really saying "I didn't like Dream Theater before the new drummer arrived".

 

I am on the other side of this spectrum, I became a fan when Images and Words was released and now don't listen to them hardly ever (and only listened to the Mangini albums out of obligation after they're released, only to be shelved due to lack of interest). I'm not blind (or deaf) and will gladly list all the DT songs pre-Mangini I don't enjoy, but notice I say SONGS. Not entire, back to back to back albums. So Portnoy's absence has, for this DT fan, made ALL the difference. It's even soured me to the band in general. Without new music to get excited about I'm forced to focus my time and attention elsewhere.

 

Mr Not, sorry to say, does NOT know what they are talking about [at best their thinking is contradictory]. And this seems like a thought I've had more than once reading their posts on this forum.

 

I think you misunderstood what Mr. Not was saying. He didn't mean he disliked everything they recorded before Mangini joined. He's talking about not liking the last few albums before Portnoy left.

 

No, I didn't misunderstand. What seems to be lost is how long MP has impacted this band's sound. It wasn't just one or two albums. He's been involved the entire time, sometimes heavily, and more heavily as time went on.

[Del_Duio]

I don't care about Dream Theater anymore. Their music is soulless and once I've got as much joy as possible from the musicianship, it gets old fast and their is nothing left that sticks with me.

 

The only problem Segue, is you will most likely change your stance on this by tomorrow! :D

[Del_Duio]

Portnoy is/was a very active songwriter in the band, musically and lyrically. The element he brought to the band was one of the underpinnings to the music that made DT what it became. For anyone to say "Portnoy influenced the band's direction in a way I didn't like much leading up to his leave" is really saying "I didn't like Dream Theater before the new drummer arrived".

 

I am on the other side of this spectrum, I became a fan when Images and Words was released and now don't listen to them hardly ever (and only listened to the Mangini albums out of obligation after they're released, only to be shelved due to lack of interest). I'm not blind (or deaf) and will gladly list all the DT songs pre-Mangini I don't enjoy, but notice I say SONGS. Not entire, back to back to back albums. So Portnoy's absence has, for this DT fan, made ALL the difference. It's even soured me to the band in general. Without new music to get excited about I'm forced to focus my time and attention elsewhere.

 

Mr Not, sorry to say, does NOT know what they are talking about [at best their thinking is contradictory]. And this seems like a thought I've had more than once reading their posts on this forum.

 

I think you misunderstood what Mr. Not was saying. He didn't mean he disliked everything they recorded before Mangini joined. He's talking about not liking the last few albums before Portnoy left.

 

No, I didn't misunderstand. What seems to be lost is how long MP has impacted this band's sound. It wasn't just one or two albums. He's been involved the entire time, sometimes heavily, and more heavily as time went on.

 

Portnoy was basically DT's frontman, more or less.

He also had a huge say in how their setlists went (ex. "We haven't played Erotomania in this city for 14 years so let's add it to the set for the 1st night").

 

But I don't know. I also really enjoyed The Astonishing too.

[cygnify]

Portnoy is/was a very active songwriter in the band, musically and lyrically. The element he brought to the band was one of the underpinnings to the music that made DT what it became. For anyone to say "Portnoy influenced the band's direction in a way I didn't like much leading up to his leave" is really saying "I didn't like Dream Theater before the new drummer arrived".

 

I am on the other side of this spectrum, I became a fan when Images and Words was released and now don't listen to them hardly ever (and only listened to the Mangini albums out of obligation after they're released, only to be shelved due to lack of interest). I'm not blind (or deaf) and will gladly list all the DT songs pre-Mangini I don't enjoy, but notice I say SONGS. Not entire, back to back to back albums. So Portnoy's absence has, for this DT fan, made ALL the difference. It's even soured me to the band in general. Without new music to get excited about I'm forced to focus my time and attention elsewhere.

 

Man, I was about to write a post but your first two paragraphs perfectly encapsulated what I was going to write. Thanks. Stoopid. :P

 

Though, full disclosure, I fairly liked the DT album and it stuck with me for a little while longer. Whereas, TA was an instant rejection; could barely get through one sitting.

 

Also, I would say I was a fan of Mangini's playing. His technical virtuosity is pretty mind-blowing and was inspiring. I recall feeling excited when he was joining the band (though I am a bigger Minneman fan, but realized he wasn't as good a fit for DT.) Looking back, I can't help but feel disappointed. His amazing chops are still on display, but there's something missing in the organic chemistry of the band. I always felt there was a slice of cheese that went along with DT, now it's a super-size queso dip.

[Rod in Toronto]

Another thing that bugs me is that after Mangini joined, they started to use a click track, because the backing vocals are not done by MP, but pre-recorded by LaBrie and Petrucci. This ruins the spontaneity. And also, the setlists are now fixed since the Dramatic Tour.

[stoopid]

Also, I would say I was a fan of Mangini's playing. His technical virtuosity is pretty mind-blowing and was inspiring. I recall feeling excited when he was joining the band (though I am a bigger Minneman fan, but realized he wasn't as good a fit for DT.) Looking back, I can't help but feel disappointed. His amazing chops are still on display, but there's something missing in the organic chemistry of the band. I always felt there was a slice of cheese that went along with DT, now it's a super-size queso dip.

 

Mangini sounds extremely mechanical. Portnoy had his moments with double bass blasts that sounded like gunfire, but even he learned to add subtlety and 'swing' (for lack of a better descriptor) to his playing as time went on. Mangini might be able to execute, but there's no life behind it.

 

I've only dabbled in drums, so I'm posting this less as a musician than as a fan. Portnoy's parts added energy, injected life into the compositions and Mangini is more akin to an elaborate drum machine. It gets the job done, but by god it's still just a friggin drum machine to these ears. :P

Edited March 8, 2017 by stoopid

[tangy]

Did you guys hear about new mp prog metal band?

 

Not much info out there right now other than mp will have total creative control.

[Segue Myles]

I don't care about Dream Theater anymore. Their music is soulless and once I've got as much joy as possible from the musicianship, it gets old fast and their is nothing left that sticks with me.

 

The only problem Segue, is you will most likely change your stance on this by tomorrow! :D

 

I hope so Coz I have tonnes of their stuff!

[treeduck]

I don't care about Dream Theater anymore. Their music is soulless and once I've got as much joy as possible from the musicianship, it gets old fast and their is nothing left that sticks with me.

 

The only problem Segue, is you will most likely change your stance on this by tomorrow! :D

 

I hope so Coz I have tonnes of their stuff!

Mangina talking about Mangini!

[Fordgalaxy]

I'm no DT fan. But was curious what everyone thinks of this. I sense some frustration in him. And it shows how integral original members are in a bands sound. Apparently Portnoy was a big part of the DT sound.

 

 

http://www.blabbermo...riting-process/

Portnoy was the sound. Just ask him, he'll tell you.

[stoopid]

I'm no DT fan. But was curious what everyone thinks of this. I sense some frustration in him. And it shows how integral original members are in a bands sound. Apparently Portnoy was a big part of the DT sound.

 

 

http://www.blabbermo...riting-process/

Portnoy was the sound. Just ask him, he'll tell you.

 

lol The truth.

[KenJennings]

I feel like Dream Theater has gone a little bit rudderless without Portnoy there to take charge. My impressions of the band are that they are all musical geniouses in their own right, but Portnoy had the real bold fearless attitude, and ultimately put his foot down to lead the band. It's easy to see how this kind of a relationship would go south, but it's also easy to see how it's necessary with that group.

 

It seems like ADToE was a careful next step after BCSL, and then DT (as awesome as it was) was stylistically similar again: like a glorious burning out of everything they still had in the tank from that era. The Astonishing played like a band that didn't know who it was anymore. It was rambling, uncohesive, longwinded and lacking that ballsy decisiveness that I think MP brought to the band.

 

I'd like to say that's it on JP to step up and lead with confidence. He's my favorite guitarist in the world, and he should feel totally empowered to be as bold and decisive as he can be... but from what I've gleaned of his personality type, he's going to be cautious, he's going to worry about putting some people out, he's going to try and avoid the mistakes MP made. I think his nature is to be careful and thoughtful, not so much ballsy and decisive. So maybe it's a role that JLB could set up to. He's certainly great at taking the gravitas to the stage, but not being instrumentally expert like the others in the band, maybe he feels unqualified as behind the scenes leader.

 

It's just a weird situation. I feel like DT needs mike Portnoy. No disrespect to Mangini at all, but MP was a one of a kind personality who just had the feel for his role. His instincts were fantastic, his playing was inspired, and he gave the band an unbelivable spark. It's going to be hard for them to fill that gap.

[The K Man]

 

 

And this is something than can never be duplicated. MP cared also for the setlists, produced a few albums, handled the DVD and live releases, the finance side of the band, did most of the press...and generally set the "tone" of each release.

 

First off, let's not act like writing set lists is difficult; it is pretty easy, actually.

 

Plus, he got to a point where he overthought the set lists, and they suffered as a result. He got too obsessed with not repeating songs across live DVDs, resulting in their 20th anniversary show set list (Score) having a pretty underwhelming set list. I remember getting home from work that night to see online what they had played at the show, seeing the set list, and thinking, "That's it?"

 

Portnoy doing most of the press was obnoxious. Being a fan wasn't as fan once he dominated that aspect, since you couldn't watch any DT interview without his abrasive, overbearing personality dominating it. Same applies to every documentary, audio commentary, etc. they did.

 

I agree that he is a more exciting drummer to listen to than Mangini (who, while amazing, is just too stiff with his playing at times), but for many fans, like myself, not having some obnoxious drummer as the face of the band has made it fun to be a fan again.

Edited March 9, 2017 by The K Man

[tangy]

 

 

And this is something than can never be duplicated. MP cared also for the setlists, produced a few albums, handled the DVD and live releases, the finance side of the band, did most of the press...and generally set the "tone" of each release.

 

First off, let's not act like writing set lists is difficult; it is pretty easy, actually.

 

Plus, he got to a point where he overthought the set lists, and they suffered as a result. He got too obsessed with not repeating songs across live DVDs, resulting in their 20th anniversary show set list (Score) having a pretty underwhelming set list. I remember getting home from work that night to see online what they had played at the show, seeing the set list, and thinking, "That's it?"

 

Portnoy doing most of the press was obnoxious. Being a fan wasn't as fan once he dominated that aspect, since you couldn't watch any DT interview without his abrasive, overbearing personality dominating it. Same applies to every documentary, audio commentary, etc. they did.

 

I agree that he is a more exciting drummer to listen to than Mangini (who, while amazing, is just too stiff with his playing at times), but for many fans, like myself, not having some obnoxious drummer as the face of the band has made it fun to be a fan again.

 

And its real easy if you play the same songs every night....

 

I agree with rod. Mp gave a shit and gave it more thought than most.

 

Mangini is not the problem with dt today it is james la febreze.