Chris Langone's Explanation

[chrislangone]

Thanks to the admins and forum members for the civility in the discourse. I'm getting a lot of flames and "hate" email from reports of the lawsuit in other forums. I know some people just don't like lawsuits, which is fine - but I feel my suit raises some important issues and I do hope it makes a difference with promoters like Live Nation in the future.

 

I want to follow up on a few points that have been raised.

 

1. The issue of a "refund" is different than a breach of contract. For instance, a store can have a "no refunds-exchanges only" policy, or a refunds honored within 30 day policy, or a no-refund/no exchange (i.e. all sales final) policy -- but if they don't sell merchandise that conforms to the reasonable expectations of the buyer they can be sued for breach of contract. In other words a "no refunds' disclaimer on the ticket does not mean that Live Nation can simply breach the contract - it just means that they have adopted a policy of "no refunds" and thus a lawsuit is the only remedy. In other words, a "no refunds" disclaimer does not immunize them from a breach of contract or consumer fraud suit - it simply means that they have chosen not to voluntarily adopt a policy of giving refunds.

 

2. Ethical promoters offer refunds. For instance, Oasis performed a show last year. Due to technical problems with the sound the show was plauged with delays and problems. The next day the band and promoter was offering full refunds on their webiste. (Notably, there was a show, but the band felt it did not meet their quality standards, so they offered an immediate refund).

 

http://dalje.com/en-bestseller/oasis-conce...d-refund/263475

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...ter/8084444.stm

 

http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story...led-gig_1105566

 

3. On the infamous issue of "beers" -- as we all know, concert beers are overpriced - fine. But my point on this is I believe the venue (operated by Live Nation) knew they were going to have to cancel the show well before admitting most people through the gates but also knew people would buy concessions - so rather than being up front and honest and immediately announcing a cancellation they let people think there was still going to be a show so they could sell concessions. I think that's deceptive.

 

4. This same argument relates to travel - things like cabs, and parking. One of my friends checked the website before coming in from the suburbs, because if people reasonably rely to their detriment on the representation of "rain or shine" then they are legally entitled to reliance damages.

 

5. My lawyer has no problem with me talking about this in the forum because as has been mentioned I do have a law degree. I practiced consumer protection law for 15 years before quiting the practice of law in 2006 to obtain my doctoral degree and pursue a career in academia. I do not currently practice and my current income is a $20,000 stipend from Cornell - so no, I am not a "rich lawyer" and the $480 I spent on tickets was a substantial expenditure for me. Normally I don't use re-sellers. But Stub Hub's policy is a reasonable one - they issue refunds if the promoter allows. I stand in the shoes of the original purchaser. If Live Nation says yes, refund - I will get one - so it's not Stub Hub's call.

 

6. Personally, I hate that I had to include RUSH in the suit - but they are necessary parties for technical legal reasons. My gripe is mainly with Live Nation, who I honestly believe is a wrong-doer here. Too often people simply roll over and take abuse from large multi-national corporations. The fact that I have a law degree, and know my legal rights, and have a specific background in consumer protection puts me in a special position to try to stand up against these kinds of practices.

 

In conclusion, I am not trying to be a "whiny baby" or suggesting RUSH should have risked electrocution, etc. Some people are telling me I should "shut up" and take "responsibility" but I've done nothing wrong to be "responsible" about. I take responsibility for my actions. I try to live up to my promises and if I can't for reasons beyond my control I try my best to make things right. I think most people do the same. Live Nation is the one that should take responsibility for their deceptive practices and the band can pressure, if not force them, to do that. Just because they are a corporation doesn't mean they can act free of moral/legal responsibility for their actions.

[chrislangone]

PS - I asked Stub Hub for my money back and was told no per Live Nation's policy - so I did not run to court and file a lawsuit before requsting my money back. Do people really think ticket holders should be left holding the bag for a show that never occurred? Wouldn't the reasonable, honest and ethical thing be to offer people their money back? I'm stunned that anyone would side with Live Nation on this.

[WCFIELDS]

QUOTE (chrislangone @ Jul 11 2010, 10:11 AM)

PS - I asked Stub Hub for my money back and was told no per Live Nation's policy - so I did not run to court and file a lawsuit before requsting my money back. Do people really think ticket holders should be left holding the bag for a show that never occurred? Wouldn't the reasonable, honest and ethical thing be to offer people their money back? I'm stunned that anyone would side with Live Nation on this.

I don't think it's the fact that anyone is siding with them......but the fine print clearly states what their policies are.....they suck yes, but when you buy the tickets, you need to read the print.

[tangy]

You will get your money back. Its just a matter of time and while I know that seems unfair to you that how companies go about their business.

 

Time Value Of Money says that a one dollar in hand today is worth more than one dollar tomorrow or months down the line.

 

This why they hold ticket sales months in advance.

 

That is why they will sit on your cash until the very last day.

 

I wish you well in reconciling this matter ( meaning getting your cash back ASAP ) but truly think you are barking up the wrong tree going after Rush for what occurred ( or for that matter any other group ).

[spirit of radio]

QUOTE (chrislangone @ Jul 11 2010, 11:11 AM)

PS - I asked Stub Hub for my money back and was told no per Live Nation's policy - so I did not run to court and file a lawsuit before requsting my money back. Do people really think ticket holders should be left holding the bag for a show that never occurred? Wouldn't the reasonable, honest and ethical thing be to offer people their money back? I'm stunned that anyone would side with Live Nation on this.

I truly hope you get a refund but this will be an exercise in futility...Good luck

[jesse2112]

Mr. Langone you sir are pathetic

[spacement]

QUOTE (chrislangone @ Jul 11 2010, 11:11 AM)

PS - I asked Stub Hub for my money back and was told no per Live Nation's policy - so I did not run to court and file a lawsuit before requsting my money back. Do people really think ticket holders should be left holding the bag for a show that never occurred? Wouldn't the reasonable, honest and ethical thing be to offer people their money back? I'm stunned that anyone would side with Live Nation on this.

Again had you purchases your tickets through Ticketmaster and not a ticket broker agency you would have your refund. Ticketmaster will only refund the original credit card used for the transaction. StubHub is feeding you a line of BS about Live Nations policy.

 

Check out the link to Live Nation about their policy.

 

http://www.livenation.com/h/returns.html

 

Canceled or Postponed Events

In either case, we'll alert you ASAP.

 

Canceled Events - You'll get an automatic refund for tickets bought online or by phone using your purchase payment method. If you bought your tickets at a retail location, please return them at the same location for a refund. (We refund all fees except UPS and retail pickup.)

 

Rescheduled Events - We'll contact you with the new date and time. Can't make the new date? Get a refund upon request.

 

 

[tel]

QUOTE (moedrabowsky @ Jul 10 2010, 11:42 PM)

They aren't keeping the cash -- they are rescheduling the show. If he can't make it he can sell the tickets. Otherwise, too bad, since the agreement -- it's not a contract -- clearly states no refunds unless the show is CANCELED. It has not been.

the date and venue have or will be rescheduled ,the concert for which and the date for which were originally paid for ARE CANCELLED.

 

FULL REFUND FOR ALL MONIES SHOULD BE REIMBURSED

[rushgoober]

If you do miraculously win, you'd have hundreds or thousands of people trying to sue for travel expenses. I would think Live Nation would do everything in their power to avoid creating that kind of ridiculous precedent.

 

In the end, whether Live Nation or Rush or whomever was in the wrong or in the right, I'd have to ask myself the question, "Is it really worth it?" Is it worth all the acrimony and ill will? Is it really worth being known as the lifelong Rush fan who sued the band?

 

I gotta say my answer on this one would be a big fat

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.aef.org.uk/downloads//NO%20at%20Heathrow.jpg

Edited July 11, 2010 by rushgoober

[spacement]

QUOTE (tel @ Jul 11 2010, 01:18 PM)

QUOTE (moedrabowsky @ Jul 10 2010, 11:42 PM) They aren't keeping the cash -- they are rescheduling the show. If he can't make it he can sell the tickets. Otherwise, too bad, since the agreement -- it's not a contract -- clearly states no refunds unless the show is CANCELED. It has not been. the date and venue have or will be rescheduled ,the concert for which and the date for which were originally paid for ARE CANCELLED.   FULL REFUND FOR ALL MONIES SHOULD BE REIMBURSED I guess you didn't see my post above. If he had purchased his tickets through an official Live Nation ticket agency, Ticketmaster, this wouldn't be a problem. Ticketmaster will issue a refund to the original credit card used to purchase the tickets. StubHub is the one not wanting to issue a refund.   Check out the link to Live Nation about their policy.   http://www.livenation.com/h/returns.html   Canceled or Postponed Events In either case, we'll alert you ASAP.   Canceled Events - You'll get an automatic refund for tickets bought online or by phone using your purchase payment method. If you bought your tickets at a retail location, please return them at the same location for a refund. (We refund all fees except UPS and retail pickup.)   Rescheduled Events - We'll contact you with the new date and time. Can't make the new date? Get a refund upon request.

[The Slanny Ganizat]

You know, Chris doesn't sound like such a bad guy if you really think about it... Honestly, I do hope something good can come of this and that it ends up being worth the time, energy, and money.

 

Good luck to you Chris!

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (chrislangone @ Jul 11 2010, 11:11 AM)

Do people really think ticket holders should be left holding the bag for a show that never occurred? Wouldn't the reasonable, honest and ethical thing be to offer people their money back? I'm stunned that anyone would side with Live Nation on this.

No, the reasonable thing would be for the ticket holder to follow the rules of the game. The show was postponed, pending a reschedule. If such a reschedule doesn't happen, then you are entitled to either a refund or comparable tickets to another event. Says so right in the "contract" that you claim they've breached.

 

Your posts so far have been filled with "I think" and "I believe". I believe a lot of things. Doesn't make me right. Doesn't make you right, either. I'm also tired of reading "a show that never occurred" in your posts. Your definition of "never" is quite different from everyone else's - unless you can see the future.

 

Wait for the reschedule, then sell the tickets if you can't attend. If a reschedule doesn't happen, that's the time to file a suit.

[tel]

QUOTE (The Slanny Ganizat @ Jul 11 2010, 01:42 PM)

You know, Chris doesn't sound like such a bad guy if you really think about it... Honestly, I do hope something good can come of this and that it ends up being worth the time, energy, and money. Good luck to you Chris!

your right,he isnt a bad guy at all,he simply wants whats his and does not take well to big corporations trying to screw him over.

you should all be congratulating him,whether its $4 or $400 the point is he has not recieved what he paid for and neither will he.

There is a principle at stake here whatever amount of smallprint was microscopically etched into the back of the ticket.

 

GIVE HIM BACK HIS MONEY!!

 

 

[ReRushed]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Jul 11 2010, 02:46 PM)

QUOTE (chrislangone @ Jul 11 2010, 11:11 AM) Do people really think ticket holders should be left holding the bag for a show that never occurred? Wouldn't the reasonable, honest and ethical thing be to offer people their money back? I'm stunned that anyone would side with Live Nation on this. No, the reasonable thing would be for the ticket holder to follow the rules of the game. The show was postponed, pending a reschedule. If such a reschedule doesn't happen, then you are entitled to either a refund or comparable tickets to another event. Says so right in the "contract" that you claim they've breached.   Your posts so far have been filled with "I think" and "I believe". I believe a lot of things. Doesn't make me right. Doesn't make you right, either. I'm also tired of reading "a show that never occurred" in your posts. Your definition of "never" is quite different from everyone else's - unless you can see the future.   Wait for the reschedule, then sell the tickets if you can't attend. If a reschedule doesn't happen, that's the time to file a suit.   The situation is so obvious to me.   I hate when people turn things into David vs. Goliath or the big bad corporation vs. the little guy.   If the concert is not rescheduled, then you ask for money back. If you don't get money back, then go to court.

[woodring2112]

Having tried to read through most of the responses to Chris' original post, I felt compelled to offer up a few of my own thoughts:

 

1) Yes. it is a bummer that the show was cancelled FOR THAT NIGHT due to weather or equipment failure due to water or whatever. Anytime you plan a trip and something happens that "ruins" it for you, it stinks. Nobody on this board seems to disagree with that point. It has happened/will happen to everybody at one time or another. I am seeing 2 shows this tour (SLC and Vegas), and it is a stretch for me monetarily to do so. If either show doesn't come off, it will stink, but I will make the best of the rescheduling when/if it happens.

 

2) You should really wait for the rescheduled date/time/location to be announced before you willy-nilly file a lawsuit against ANYBODY. If the show CAN'T go on for whatever reason, and the promoters are willing to reschedule, let the process run its course first. This seems akin to appealing a court ruling before it is made. Everything has a sequence of events, and no amount of complaining can change that.

 

3) IF you cannot make the rescheduled event, then, by all means, begin the process of getting your refund for the ticket(s) you purchased from Stubhub, Ticketmaster, or whomever has the refund policy applicable to you.

 

4) Which is it: you want your your ticket $$ back or you want "out of pocket losses"? That's a lawyer phrase and doesn't endear you to anyone. See item #1 above: if your ENTIRE trip was dependent on the show, then I'm sorry, but at least you got to spend a bunch of time with old friends in Chicago with the prospect of catching the show at a later date. I would think that would trump an entire trip being dependent on a concert, Rush or not. I know it would for me. But saying you don't want your airfare back but want "transportation costs" when you said you walked to the venue from your hotel...? Maybe I'm missing your point (it wouldn't be the first time I've missed something theoretically obvious).

 

5) I am not a lawyer, I am a retired Air Force MSgt. If you tell me that you HAVE TO put Rush's name on the lawsuit, then I will believe you. However, if you are attaching their names simply as an attempt to expedite some sort of "enhanced" outcome in your favor, then you, Sir, are sad. If, legally, LiveNation or TM or some other party is legally bound, then by all means, address your concerns to them WITHIN THE SYSTEM. See items #2 & 3 above: Let the process work.

 

 

I appreciate your willingness to address your actions with the members of the fan community, just be aware that you are opening yourself up to criticisms and attack, not just by fans, but theoretically by LN/TM/Rush's legal teams for what you espouse on boards such as this one.

 

I hope you get to see Rush in some venue on this tour and do not let one sour experience with an event - and not THE SHOW ITSELF - ruin your appreciation for what Alex, Geddy and Neil bring us year after year: great music.

[chrislangone]

@spacement:

 

Thank you for the link - that is interesting - and it totally contradicts what Live Nation prints on the ticket:

 

"IN THE EVENT OF A CANCELLATION OR RESCHEDULING OF THE APPLICABLE EVENT, MANAGEMENT SHALL NOT BE REQUIRED TO ISSUE A REFUND PROVIDED THAT YOU ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT, WITHIN TWELVE MONTHS OF THE DATE OF THE ORIGINAL EVENT, TO ATTEND A RESCHEDULED PERFORMANCE OF THE SAME EVENT OR TO

EXCHANGE THIS TICKET FOR A TICKET, COMPARABLE IN PRICE AND LOCATION, TO ANOTHER SIMILAR EVENT AS DESIGNATED BY MANAGEMENT EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE PROVIDED BY LAW. HOLDER BEARS ALL RISKS OF INCLEMENT WEATHER.

 

....

 

NO REFUNDS. NO EXCHANGES EXCEPT AS PROVIDED HEREIN. EVENT DATE & TIME SUBJECT TO CHANGE. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED."

 

I will further investigate. If the link you reference is accurate then it's odd that they print something on the ticket that's different. And if Stub Hub is lying -- well...

 

I cannot go to rescheduled event in Chicago, this was a summer trip that I picked to take some old friends to a show.

 

 

I requested a refund and was denied. And the ticket excplicitly states no refund.

 

 

[Some Half-Forgotten Stranger]

The guys feels screwed and instead of blaming people and whining, he is actually taking action and trying to do something about it. I hope he gets his money back.

[-D-RocK-]

Hmmm.......I'm no legal expert Chris.....in fact, I'm the very last guy who should be giving out legal advice, but you may have to cut your losses and walk away from this one.

 

 

 

Don't worry though, the bitterness will wear off after a few years.

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (Some Half-Forgotten Stranger @ Jul 11 2010, 02:17 PM)

The guys feels screwed and instead of blaming people and whining, he is actually taking action and trying to do something about it. I hope he gets his money back.

I'll grant you the not-whining, but he most certainly is blaming people: Rush and LiveNation, specifically - for a situation that has yet to be resolved (i.e. the rescheduling, or lack thereof, of the show).

[ReRushed]

Maybe feeling "screwed" isn't enough.

 

Yes, the whole process is complicated and frustrating, but if you're going to sue you need to do it at the right time.

 

There are risks in life, sometimes you have to take your lumps.

[Joshua]

 

Yes. That's what I think this is all about. She won't let him let this go/run its course. Just a hunch.

 

[Sarge]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Jul 11 2010, 08:20 PM)

QUOTE (Some Half-Forgotten Stranger @ Jul 11 2010, 02:17 PM) The guys feels screwed and instead of blaming people and whining, he is actually taking action and trying to do something about it. I hope he gets his money back. I'll grant you the not-whining, but he most certainly is blaming people: Rush and LiveNation, specifically - for a situation that has yet to be resolved (i.e. the rescheduling, or lack thereof, of the show). I don't see him blaming RUSH, I only see him blaming live nation but unfortunately he has to involve RUSH to get to them.   Best of luck with this Chris & I find it hard to believe that all you guys/gals saying "it's in the terms & conditions" actually read them yourselves when you make a purchase & if you where in Chris's shoes would you just want to "walk away".....doubt it.   PS do you really think Neil Geddy & Alex are gonnae be involved in this at all? it won't get past there management company!

[moedrabowsky]

QUOTE (tel @ Jul 11 2010, 01:18 PM)

QUOTE (moedrabowsky @ Jul 10 2010, 11:42 PM) They aren't keeping the cash -- they are rescheduling the show. If he can't make it he can sell the tickets. Otherwise, too bad, since the agreement -- it's not a contract -- clearly states no refunds unless the show is CANCELED. It has not been. the date and venue have or will be rescheduled ,the concert for which and the date for which were originally paid for ARE CANCELLED.   FULL REFUND FOR ALL MONIES SHOULD BE REIMBURSED Canceled means the band will not play a make-up date.   Re-scheduled and canceled do not have remotely the same meaning.

[Snaked]

The issue here is not LiveNation or TicketMaster's Terms.

It is StubHub's terms as Chris agreed to them upon making his purchase.

 

 

Since Chris did not enter into any agreement with LiveNation or TicketMaster their terms do not apply. He is bound by the contract he agreed to when he bought the tickets on StubHub.

 

 

Any claim filed against LiveNation, TicketMaster, RUSH or the venue will be thrown out in my opinion since none of those entities ever agreed to terms with Mr. Langone. The only body who agreed to terms with Mr. Langone was StubHub.

 

 

This is a case of making sure you read the terms of purchase before you decide to click the "BUY NOW" button.

[yyz98]

QUOTE (Xanadoood @ Jul 10 2010, 06:18 PM)

The issue i have is being involved in the lawsuit. If it was just LiveNation, sure, do whatever the hell you want. Waste of money and time, but you have that right. But NO WAY i would ever sue a band that i love over something they could not control.

It has already been explained why Rush was named. It isn't a slam against Rush. By legal process, they have to be named. He didn't have to come on here and explain ANYTHING to any of you. The fact that he did (and did so eloquently and without anomisity) speaks volumes about his intentions and alas, his LOVE for the band.

It wasn't like some of the crass type on here that come swinging at the fence like a teenager at a kegger....to be honest, he is handling it way better than I would. By design, he should be able to get ALL expenses incurred since the trip was exclusively for the concert.

 

The remark about how big the corporation is and the deep lawyer pool is silly. Just because a company is big doesn't mean SQUAT against a consumer that was done wrong. Nada, nothing. It is so clear cut who is responsible here, I'd eat my own ass if they prevail against Mr. Langone. If I was Chris, I'd ask for more. It is clear that the promoter knew EXACTLY what they were doing in letting people into the venue. Their concession sales to clear any payroll to the workers already in place, the venue fee, etc was probably met easily. I'd be suprised if more suits aren't filed as many fans of this band go to great lengths and distances to see their favorite band.

I think todays society is way too litigious for its own good. Lots of frivolous suits tying up the courts. However, this is not one of them. He has gone to great lengths to satisfy his interests and when he is met with a brick wall, the suit is necessary.

 

Sorry to go so long, but getting offended by RUSH being named in the suit is, well, retarded. I'd be surpised if they even catch wind of being sued at all.....