Drummerrobin Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Interested to know what you guys think. I much prefer Neil after Gruber's teaching - he sounds soooo much more fluent now IMO. And after studying the moeller technique, i can also say that if he had continued to play the way he did, he would more than likely have developed some bad physical problems. That kind of stiff technique is notorious for leading to carpal tunnel syndrome. To anyone who thinks Neil would have been better off without Gruber, I beg to differ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Oh easily before. He seemed much more raw and energetic, a lot more bombastic which I prefer in a drummer. After he became a lot more low key, started sounding too technical and sounded like he was trained, unlike when he was younger, and I feel that he lost a lot of creativity in his fill work too. He had his own unique style before he took lessons, and after them he stated sounding like a lot of other drummers to me. When he was younger he was one of the most creative fill guys out there, throwing things in there that you wouldn't even think would fit, but he made it work, and after he just started doing a lot of standard issue type fills, thing that just sounded safe and predictable to me, everything sounded overly written and rehearsed, and in the old days it just sounded like he was flying on the edge of his seat all the time. I prefer that style in this kind of band. I prefer raw talent that hasnt been tampered with by someone on the outside. You develop your own style that way without lessons. Geddy said many times he plays the way he does because he never took lessons, and that makes his style unique. Edited June 16, 2011 by trenken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowItIs Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) After. Yes, he was energetic and wild in his younger days but the OP is correct in saying that his posture and stick grip would have led to some bad problems. The change, IMO, is really most evident in his posture: in older videos, he'd be hunched over the drums. His form now is so much better both for health reasons and for efficiency and control. I love that after drumming for 30-some years, Neil was smart enough to know that he could always improve. Edited June 16, 2011 by HowItIs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummerrobin Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 QUOTE (HowItIs @ Jun 16 2011, 10:28 AM)After. Yes, he was energetic and wild in his younger days but the OP is correct in saying that his posture and stick grip would have led to some bad problems. The change, IMO, is really most evident in his posture: in older videos, he'd be hunched over the drums. His form now is so much better both for health reasons and for efficiency and control. I love that after drumming for 30-some years, Neil was smart enough to know that he could always improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangy Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 he may play better now but was a better player then??? i look at what they recorded. young dudes rock harder than old dudes......... ( as i have said before ) i prefer youthful energy and aggression in rock music more so than the polish and precision of middle to old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babycat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khan Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 after for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druid13 Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I am going to surprise people here by saying AFTER Freddie... I do however think there are things he could take further...start working on things like the Moeller stroke etc. I think it is tough to go from being a hard rock guy used to making such large strokes to a Moeller stroke guy using the whipping motion when playing. I agree his old technique was limited and playing with the stick while more or less holding a death grip is not an overall effective technique. It quickly becomes inefficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 QUOTE (tangy @ Jun 16 2011, 10:39 AM) he may play better now but was a better player then??? i look at what they recorded. young dudes rock harder than old dudes......... ( as i have said before ) i prefer youthful energy and aggression in rock music more so than the polish and precision of middle to old age. Agree. To put it simply young drummers > old drummers in rock music. I think his playing is very tame and boring now. Not that he isnt still good, but he isnt even close to being as creative as he once was. His older stuff is far more interesting to my ears, and a hell of a lot more difficult to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theredtamasrule Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Before Gruber: B.G. Not for how he plays, his technique is neither here nor there when it comes to the parts he creates for songs. Neil simply isn't as adventurous as he used to be. Thank gawd Nick R. is there to kick him in the ass now to get him to stretch it out a bit. An interesting example is on the BTLS documentary where Terry Brown, Ged & Al are discussing the recording of Tom Sawyer, specifically the drum parts by Pratt. Ged himself said that nowadays Neil wouldn't do those kinds of incredible fills. And I agree. Neil kinda sounds like lots of other drummers today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate1647 Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 After. For reasons far too complex for most people to understand. zomg i wush h3 wud ply fster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarJetman Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Before, but, as I'm not a drummer myself, I don't pretend that I'm making an informed decision. I just loved his drumming on Hold Your Fire and Presto. Edited June 17, 2011 by StellarJetman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Cocky Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) After. It made him a better drummer, what more needs be said. But not surprisingly, the "Old Rush > New Rush" crowd is going to stuff the ballot box with "before" votes, so get ready for that. Edited June 16, 2011 by Rush Cocky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummerrobin Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 If you listen to counterparts, you can hear his playing was already going in a more groove orientated direction, so I think it was inevitable that he would have moved away from much of the flamboyence anyway. Freddie just helped him to do it more confidently and I think the results really show on Test for Echo. I've always preferred a grooving and un-robotic approach to rock drumming, yet im also a massive rush fan which in itself is a strange paradox. But I'm glad Neil has being bringing the two together recently and because of that I see him as a much better musician now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangy Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 would you rather watch the solo from ATWAS or the one on Letterman the other night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormtron Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todem Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) For me it comes down to ,has he written better drum parts before or after? After Freddy he is a more "in the pocket drummer". And I love his work on Test for Echo and Snakes and Arrows. But man, he was laser precison in the 80's, wrote fantastic and truly original fills and grooves. His body of work is defined by his pre-Freddy playing. And soncially I much prefer Hemispheres - Hold Your Fire So I will take before. But I love the fact he drives to become better and seeked out a new challenge. It was apparent he had taken his previous apporach as far as it could go. Edited June 16, 2011 by Todem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Cocky Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 QUOTE (Drummerrobin @ Jun 16 2011, 02:50 PM) If you listen to counterparts, you can hear his playing was already going in a more groove orientated direction, so I think it was inevitable that he would have moved away from much of the flamboyence anyway. Freddie just helped him to do it more confidently and I think the results really show on Test for Echo. I've always preferred a grooving and un-robotic approach to rock drumming, yet im also a massive rush fan which in itself is a strange paradox. But I'm glad Neil has being bringing the two together recently and because of that I see him as a much better musician now. I think Test For Echo hs some of the best drumming.....if not THE best....of any Rush album out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merely Space Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I am amazed at how balanced the responses on this topic are. Bravo, Rush Forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good,bad,andrush Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Before, but I think it's marvelous that he still wanted to learn. He improved his playing and technique for sure, at the cost of originality. But he already laid down an amazing path that ultimately lead current drummers to push themselves, contributing a lot to the music world. I don't think we'd have Gavin Harrison, Mike Portnoy, and many others, as well as entire bands like The Mars Volta and Muse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummerrobin Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 QUOTE (tangy @ Jun 16 2011, 02:05 PM)would you rather watch the solo from ATWAS or the one on Letterman the other night? You're comparing some of his best solo work from before to some of his IMO weakest from after. In this case yes I would take the Exit solo but if you were comparing it to the Rio or SandA Live solos I would take the two newer ones as they come across to me as a lot more creative and original - particularly the Snakes one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yokkov Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) Usually when I listen to music, if I don't really listen to it, I can't really notice the drumming. Tats' what I like about about Neil before Freddie Gruber: I can really ntice the drums in the music. After I feel like he just blended in. Edited June 16, 2011 by Yokkov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerofthor Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 If Test For Echo was Neils first appearance on the scene, would he even be talked about as an all time great drummer? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerofthor Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Plus Gruber encouraged the use of the DW's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushman14 Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 have to go with before. him and the band were at their creative peaks with AFTK thru MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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