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#21 KennyLee

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 12:57 PM

View Postx1yyz, on 07 April 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

I also don't like the educational divide that happens between girls and boys, and the fact that it is assumed girls don't want to learn/will have difficulty learning math and science, so instead they are coddled and helped to avoid those subjects.  This translates, in part, to some girls not liking the sciences and thinking less of the ones who do.

With guys it just seems like so much of this crap doesn't exist.

I disagree here. It totally happens to guys on the other end. If a guy can't cook or clean or know how to grocery shop or change a diaper they'll get the same type of coddling.

I'm guilty of two of those.  o.O

Interesting stuff btw.

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#22 Mara

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 01:04 PM

View Postx1yyz, on 07 April 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

View PostTombstone Mountain, on 06 April 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

I have so many questions...may I ask away? A few of you ladies have hit on something I think will lead to a deeper place.
Screw it--here are the comments that stuck out to me:

1) It's much easier for me to have a conversation with a guy than with another girl--WHY?
2) Women tend to be very competitive and judgmental in comparison--WHY?
3) Have no time for the cattiness that so many women seem to indulge in--I don't have to ask why. That kinda shit gets old fast
  
Is it your opinion that women competing for the attention of males, or just attention? Is there an underlying control thing going on?

I wish I could answer your whys, but I don't know why some girls act that way.  In my observations it seems to have dropped off with age, but that might also be a reflection of the female people I have in my life right now.  I know when I was younger, in high school and the years after, the girls I met were manipulative, using their looks and charm to take advantage of other people and I did not want to have any part of that. I saw too many girls who would target what they wanted (popularity, a certain boy, physical objects) and wouldn't let anything stand in their way as they used everything at their disposal to get that thing.  I also don't like the educational divide that happens between girls and boys, and the fact that it is assumed girls don't want to learn/will have difficulty learning math and science, so instead they are coddled and helped to avoid those subjects.  This translates, in part, to some girls not liking the sciences and thinking less of the ones who do.

With guys it just seems like so much of this crap doesn't exist.  As another poster mentioned, with guys you do run the risk of them wanting to change a platonic friendship into a romantic relationship (and to be fair, many of the guys I've slept with started off as friends) but that is easier to deal with, and it's one blatant thing that doesn't revolve around manipulation.  And it doesn't always exists, especially if one or both of you are already involved in other relationships.

The competitiveness thing gets a LITTLE better with age, but the balance shifts as well.  I've had a few female supervisors, most of whom I did not get on well with AT ALL.  The two I have clicked with are close to my own age, secure and confident, and we actually became friends of a sort.  The ones with whom I clashed were around 15 years older and tended to have a snippy, supercilious attitude.  One in particular stands out - she was a horrid drama queen (used to call in sick when she'd had a fight with her boyfriend, and she was in her 40's) in addition to just generally having a bad attitude towards anyone female and younger.  Insecurity and jealousy.

One of my very best friends is my ex-fiance.  We were great friends prior to dating, and once a few years had passed after the broken engagement, we are back to that place.  Now, does he want to sleep with me?  Yep, and he freely admits it!  But he is also happy with just being platonic and it's not weird at all.

#23 EagleMoon

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 01:26 PM

View PostMara, on 07 April 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

View Postx1yyz, on 07 April 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

View PostTombstone Mountain, on 06 April 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

I have so many questions...may I ask away? A few of you ladies have hit on something I think will lead to a deeper place.
Screw it--here are the comments that stuck out to me:

1) It's much easier for me to have a conversation with a guy than with another girl--WHY?
2) Women tend to be very competitive and judgmental in comparison--WHY?
3) Have no time for the cattiness that so many women seem to indulge in--I don't have to ask why. That kinda shit gets old fast
  
Is it your opinion that women competing for the attention of males, or just attention? Is there an underlying control thing going on?

I wish I could answer your whys, but I don't know why some girls act that way.  In my observations it seems to have dropped off with age, but that might also be a reflection of the female people I have in my life right now.  I know when I was younger, in high school and the years after, the girls I met were manipulative, using their looks and charm to take advantage of other people and I did not want to have any part of that. I saw too many girls who would target what they wanted (popularity, a certain boy, physical objects) and wouldn't let anything stand in their way as they used everything at their disposal to get that thing.  I also don't like the educational divide that happens between girls and boys, and the fact that it is assumed girls don't want to learn/will have difficulty learning math and science, so instead they are coddled and helped to avoid those subjects.  This translates, in part, to some girls not liking the sciences and thinking less of the ones who do.

With guys it just seems like so much of this crap doesn't exist.  As another poster mentioned, with guys you do run the risk of them wanting to change a platonic friendship into a romantic relationship (and to be fair, many of the guys I've slept with started off as friends) but that is easier to deal with, and it's one blatant thing that doesn't revolve around manipulation.  And it doesn't always exists, especially if one or both of you are already involved in other relationships.

The competitiveness thing gets a LITTLE better with age, but the balance shifts as well.  I've had a few female supervisors, most of whom I did not get on well with AT ALL.  The two I have clicked with are close to my own age, secure and confident, and we actually became friends of a sort.  The ones with whom I clashed were around 15 years older and tended to have a snippy, supercilious attitude.  One in particular stands out - she was a horrid drama queen (used to call in sick when she'd had a fight with her boyfriend, and she was in her 40's) in addition to just generally having a bad attitude towards anyone female and younger.  Insecurity and jealousy.

One of my very best friends is my ex-fiance.  We were great friends prior to dating, and once a few years had passed after the broken engagement, we are back to that place.  Now, does he want to sleep with me?  Yep, and he freely admits it!  But he is also happy with just being platonic and it's not weird at all.

I've always felt that women in power feel like they have to act like men to keep control of the people beneath them in the workplace. My mother told me that when she was the head of the office at the railroad where she worked, that men would only respect her if she acted like "one of the guys." However there's a distance that has to maintained between boss and employee. Sometimes it's hard to define what that is.

Edited by EagleMoon, 07 April 2015 - 01:27 PM.


#24 blueschica

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 01:46 PM

View PostDr. Sheldon Cooper, on 07 April 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

Math is hard.

Oh no!  Already had to live through that controversy once :)

#25 Digital Man

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 03:02 PM

View Postsundog, on 06 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm both.

I relate more to men, but I think I'm girly.
I have girl friends - but my best friend is Digi :wub:
I like "pretty"
I like doing my hair, and makeup (but I'm not afraid to go without & I still feel good without them "done.")
I enjoy getting my nails done - but haven't had the luxury of the extra cash for a few years to spend 40-50/ month on them. I'd rather save for a vacation or concert.
I also like loud music, and concerts and beer and partying.
I very much enjoy being told I'm pretty - and since Digi tells me everyday - I consider myself spoiled.

*edit for grammar :doh:

Sundog is the perfect amount of girly for me.

I tell her she is beautiful everyday because it happens to be the truth. If you have good, happy, positive and beautiful people in your life you should tell them as ofter as psooible.  There's enough negativity coming in from everyhwere else.

#26 Narps

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 03:25 PM

View PostDigital Man, on 07 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 06 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm both.

I relate more to men, but I think I'm girly.
I have girl friends - but my best friend is Digi :wub:
I like "pretty"
I like doing my hair, and makeup (but I'm not afraid to go without & I still feel good without them "done.")
I enjoy getting my nails done - but haven't had the luxury of the extra cash for a few years to spend 40-50/ month on them. I'd rather save for a vacation or concert.
I also like loud music, and concerts and beer and partying.
I very much enjoy being told I'm pretty - and since Digi tells me everyday - I consider myself spoiled.

*edit for grammar :doh:



I tell her she is beautiful everyday because it happens to be the truth.
This is a wonderful thing but not so wonderful when you do this and they don't believe you... :sigh:

#27 sundog

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:06 PM

View PostMara, on 06 April 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

Ohh, that is SO me.  I do have a couple of good girlfriends, but for the most part am much more comfortable with men.  I have a raunchy sense of humor, don't give a shit about fashion or purses or shoes, and have no time for the cattiness that so many women seem to indulge in.
I don't have time for cattiness either - so frustrating.

I do like purses and shoes - honestly though - I'm thrilled to bits with 12 different colours of 5 dollar flip flops as opposed to a pair of 2 or 3 hundred dollar shoes.

#28 sundog

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:08 PM

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on 07 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 06 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm both.

I relate more to men, but I think I'm girly.
I have girl friends - but my best friend is Digi :wub:
I like "pretty"
I like doing my hair, and makeup (but I'm not afraid to go without & I still feel good without them "done.")
I enjoy getting my nails done - but haven't had the luxury of the extra cash for a few years to spend 40-50/ month on them. I'd rather save for a vacation or concert.
I also like loud music, and concerts and beer and partying.
I very much enjoy being told I'm pretty - and since Digi tells me everyday - I consider myself spoiled.

*edit for grammar :doh:



I tell her she is beautiful everyday because it happens to be the truth.
This is a wonderful thing but not so wonderful when you do this and they don't believe you... :sigh:
That's a self esteem issue for them. :(

#29 gudbuytjane

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:09 PM

FWIW I'm bi, and have had relationships both with men and women, though truthfully I don't really date much at all, especially as I get older. As far as friends go, I'm pretty evenly balanced between men and women (and even between LGBT or not, too). I don't tolerate pettiness from either gender, or any sexuality. I just am too old for it now, it tires me. I think I'm a bit of an eccentric weirdo, and I tend to be drawn to other eccentric weirdos, too. :) Basically I just really like interesting people, regardless of their gender or age or size or whatever. I've seen a lot of pretty faces in my day, but I haven't heard nearly enough interesting stories. ;)

I've gone through a number of looks in my life (I definitely had my spikey hair/dykey phase in my early 30's), but the last couple of years I've been much girlier, and usually wear skirts and dresses these days. I like the girlish tomboy definition, I think that'd be me. Part of me is really into Dita Von Teese retro-femininity, but, like, I can also hang out at the music store and talk about Rickenbakers with the guys who work there. And I write stories about monsters! And I am really obsessively into progressive rock, which is supposed to be a guy thing, right? *shrug*

One thing I have noticed, that other women have mentioned here, is the lack of the competition BS as I get older. There's a thing I notice now about other women near my age, it's like we just seem to strike up conversations in public, and often laugh our asses off. It's such an awesome thing, and I think it's almost like an acknowledgement that we're both older and don't give a shit. I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's a thing. :)

Edited by gudbuytjane, 07 April 2015 - 05:10 PM.


#30 Narps

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:13 PM

View Postsundog, on 07 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on 07 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 06 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm both.

I relate more to men, but I think I'm girly.
I have girl friends - but my best friend is Digi :wub:
I like "pretty"
I like doing my hair, and makeup (but I'm not afraid to go without & I still feel good without them "done.")
I enjoy getting my nails done - but haven't had the luxury of the extra cash for a few years to spend 40-50/ month on them. I'd rather save for a vacation or concert.
I also like loud music, and concerts and beer and partying.
I very much enjoy being told I'm pretty - and since Digi tells me everyday - I consider myself spoiled.

*edit for grammar :doh:



I tell her she is beautiful everyday because it happens to be the truth.
This is a wonderful thing but not so wonderful when you do this and they don't believe you... :sigh:
That's a self esteem issue for them. :(
Oh yes. She has plenty of that. She is well overweight and hates it. That is the crux of the problem. When it comes to such things as I have found out myself, if you want to change something it must come from within for it ever to get done. If she ever decides to do something about it I will support her and have in the past but she gives up very quickly. She is still beautiful to me but she sadly doesn't buy it... :(

#31 Narps

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:15 PM

View Postgudbuytjane, on 07 April 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

FWIW I'm bi, and have had relationships both with men and women, though truthfully I don't really date much at all, especially as I get older. As far as friends go, I'm pretty evenly balanced between men and women (and even between LGBT or not, too). I don't tolerate pettiness from either gender, or any sexuality. I just am too old for it now, it tires me. I think I'm a bit of an eccentric weirdo, and I tend to be drawn to other eccentric weirdos, too. :) Basically I just really like interesting people, regardless of their gender or age or size or whatever. I've seen a lot of pretty faces in my day, but I haven't heard nearly enough interesting stories. ;)

I've gone through a number of looks in my life (I definitely had my spikey hair/dykey phase in my early 30's), but the last couple of years I've been much girlier, and usually wear skirts and dresses these days. I like the girlish tomboy definition, I think that'd be me. Part of me is really into Dita Von Teese retro-femininity, but, like, I can also hang out at the music store and talk about Rickenbakers with the guys who work there. And I write stories about monsters! And I am really obsessively into progressive rock, which is supposed to be a guy thing, right? *shrug*

One thing I have noticed, that other women have mentioned here, is the lack of the competition BS as I get older. There's a thing I notice now about other women near my age, it's like we just seem to strike up conversations in public, and often laugh our asses off. It's such an awesome thing, and I think it's almost like an acknowledgement that we're both older and don't give a shit. I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's a thing. :)
:cheers: from one eccentric weirdo to another... :)

#32 gudbuytjane

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:20 PM

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

View Postgudbuytjane, on 07 April 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

FWIW I'm bi, and have had relationships both with men and women, though truthfully I don't really date much at all, especially as I get older. As far as friends go, I'm pretty evenly balanced between men and women (and even between LGBT or not, too). I don't tolerate pettiness from either gender, or any sexuality. I just am too old for it now, it tires me. I think I'm a bit of an eccentric weirdo, and I tend to be drawn to other eccentric weirdos, too. :) Basically I just really like interesting people, regardless of their gender or age or size or whatever. I've seen a lot of pretty faces in my day, but I haven't heard nearly enough interesting stories. ;)

I've gone through a number of looks in my life (I definitely had my spikey hair/dykey phase in my early 30's), but the last couple of years I've been much girlier, and usually wear skirts and dresses these days. I like the girlish tomboy definition, I think that'd be me. Part of me is really into Dita Von Teese retro-femininity, but, like, I can also hang out at the music store and talk about Rickenbakers with the guys who work there. And I write stories about monsters! And I am really obsessively into progressive rock, which is supposed to be a guy thing, right? *shrug*

One thing I have noticed, that other women have mentioned here, is the lack of the competition BS as I get older. There's a thing I notice now about other women near my age, it's like we just seem to strike up conversations in public, and often laugh our asses off. It's such an awesome thing, and I think it's almost like an acknowledgement that we're both older and don't give a shit. I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's a thing. :)
:cheers: from one eccentric weirdo to another... :)

That's something I can cheers to! :)

#33 Lorraine

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:26 PM

Quote

One thing I have noticed, that other women have mentioned here, is the lack of the competition BS as I get older. There's a thing I notice now about other women near my age, it's like we just seem to strike up conversations in public, and often laugh our asses off. It's such an awesome thing, and I think it's almost like an acknowledgement that we're both older and don't give a shit. I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's a thing.

It makes perfect sense, and thank you for putting it so well.  :cheers: :cheers:

#34 EagleMoon

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:38 PM

I think a lot of the competitiveness with women comes from their insecurity about being able to make it in life on their own. So they feel like they have to have a man in their life which brings out the cattiness. Things are better now days than they used to be. It's okay for little girls to play with boys toys and little boys to play with girls dolls. Little girls are raised with more strong feminine influences them they were years ago. It's better but it's certainly not gone by any means. But I do think that's a lot of it.

#35 sundog

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:46 PM

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 07 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on 07 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 06 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm both.

I relate more to men, but I think I'm girly.
I have girl friends - but my best friend is Digi :wub:
I like "pretty"
I like doing my hair, and makeup (but I'm not afraid to go without & I still feel good without them "done.")
I enjoy getting my nails done - but haven't had the luxury of the extra cash for a few years to spend 40-50/ month on them. I'd rather save for a vacation or concert.
I also like loud music, and concerts and beer and partying.
I very much enjoy being told I'm pretty - and since Digi tells me everyday - I consider myself spoiled.

*edit for grammar :doh:



I tell her she is beautiful everyday because it happens to be the truth.
This is a wonderful thing but not so wonderful when you do this and they don't believe you... :sigh:
That's a self esteem issue for them. :(
Oh yes. She has plenty of that. She is well overweight and hates it. That is the crux of the problem. When it comes to such things as I have found out myself, if you want to change something it must come from within for it ever to get done. If she ever decides to do something about it I will support her and have in the past but she gives up very quickly. She is still beautiful to me but she sadly doesn't buy it... :(
You're so right.  It HAS to start from her.
Losing weight is difficult. And such a slow process, if you do it right.
:heart: It's hard to bang your heart against some mad buggers wall  someone that doesn't believe you.

#36 sundog

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:49 PM

View PostDigital Man, on 07 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 06 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm both.

I relate more to men, but I think I'm girly.
I have girl friends - but my best friend is Digi :wub:
I like "pretty"
I like doing my hair, and makeup (but I'm not afraid to go without & I still feel good without them "done.")
I enjoy getting my nails done - but haven't had the luxury of the extra cash for a few years to spend 40-50/ month on them. I'd rather save for a vacation or concert.
I also like loud music, and concerts and beer and partying.
I very much enjoy being told I'm pretty - and since Digi tells me everyday - I consider myself spoiled.

*edit for grammar :doh:

Sundog is the perfect amount of girly for me.

I tell her she is beautiful everyday because it happens to be the truth. If you have good, happy, positive and beautiful people in your life you should tell them as ofter as possible.  There's enough negativity coming in from everywhere else.

:wub:

#37 Narps

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:50 PM

View Postsundog, on 07 April 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 07 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on 07 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 06 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm both.

I relate more to men, but I think I'm girly.
I have girl friends - but my best friend is Digi :wub:
I like "pretty"
I like doing my hair, and makeup (but I'm not afraid to go without & I still feel good without them "done.")
I enjoy getting my nails done - but haven't had the luxury of the extra cash for a few years to spend 40-50/ month on them. I'd rather save for a vacation or concert.
I also like loud music, and concerts and beer and partying.
I very much enjoy being told I'm pretty - and since Digi tells me everyday - I consider myself spoiled.

*edit for grammar :doh:



I tell her she is beautiful everyday because it happens to be the truth.
This is a wonderful thing but not so wonderful when you do this and they don't believe you... :sigh:
That's a self esteem issue for them. :(
Oh yes. She has plenty of that. She is well overweight and hates it. That is the crux of the problem. When it comes to such things as I have found out myself, if you want to change something it must come from within for it ever to get done. If she ever decides to do something about it I will support her and have in the past but she gives up very quickly. She is still beautiful to me but she sadly doesn't buy it... :(
You're so right.  It HAS to start from her.
Losing weight is difficult. And such a slow process, if you do it right.
:heart: It's hard to bang your heart against some mad buggers wall  someone that doesn't believe you.
Indeed and thanks for your response and interest... :)

#38 x1yyz

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:56 PM

As I'm reading through replies I'm wondering if the cattiness and competition between younger females is their equivalent of the aggression and posturing you see in males (of many species!) as they come of age?  As a biologist/zoologist I am always looking for the most parsimonious (simplest) answer to things, and that is usually what we are biologically driven to do.  This would certainly explain why it tapers off with age.

#39 x1yyz

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 05:59 PM

View Postsundog, on 07 April 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 07 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on 07 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 06 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm both.

I relate more to men, but I think I'm girly.
I have girl friends - but my best friend is Digi :wub:
I like "pretty"
I like doing my hair, and makeup (but I'm not afraid to go without & I still feel good without them "done.")
I enjoy getting my nails done - but haven't had the luxury of the extra cash for a few years to spend 40-50/ month on them. I'd rather save for a vacation or concert.
I also like loud music, and concerts and beer and partying.
I very much enjoy being told I'm pretty - and since Digi tells me everyday - I consider myself spoiled.

*edit for grammar :doh:



I tell her she is beautiful everyday because it happens to be the truth.
This is a wonderful thing but not so wonderful when you do this and they don't believe you... :sigh:
That's a self esteem issue for them. :(
Oh yes. She has plenty of that. She is well overweight and hates it. That is the crux of the problem. When it comes to such things as I have found out myself, if you want to change something it must come from within for it ever to get done. If she ever decides to do something about it I will support her and have in the past but she gives up very quickly. She is still beautiful to me but she sadly doesn't buy it... :(
You're so right.  It HAS to start from her.
Losing weight is difficult. And such a slow process, if you do it right.
:heart: It's hard to bang your heart against some mad buggers wall  someone that doesn't believe you.

Also, someone does not have to lose weight to be beautiful.  It most certainly is a self esteem issue, and if one can learn to love themselves and their body at any weight then that is the best!  This is something I've been struggling with my whole life, unfortunately.  I know women who are perfectly happy weighing 250, 300 pounds and their comfort and happiness is reflected in their confidence, and it makes them more beautiful.

#40 Narps

Narps

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 06:04 PM

View Postx1yyz, on 07 April 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 07 April 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 07 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

View PostNarpsberg, on 07 April 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostDigital Man, on 07 April 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

View Postsundog, on 06 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

I'm both.

I relate more to men, but I think I'm girly.
I have girl friends - but my best friend is Digi :wub:
I like "pretty"
I like doing my hair, and makeup (but I'm not afraid to go without & I still feel good without them "done.")
I enjoy getting my nails done - but haven't had the luxury of the extra cash for a few years to spend 40-50/ month on them. I'd rather save for a vacation or concert.
I also like loud music, and concerts and beer and partying.
I very much enjoy being told I'm pretty - and since Digi tells me everyday - I consider myself spoiled.

*edit for grammar :doh:



I tell her she is beautiful everyday because it happens to be the truth.
This is a wonderful thing but not so wonderful when you do this and they don't believe you... :sigh:
That's a self esteem issue for them. :(
Oh yes. She has plenty of that. She is well overweight and hates it. That is the crux of the problem. When it comes to such things as I have found out myself, if you want to change something it must come from within for it ever to get done. If she ever decides to do something about it I will support her and have in the past but she gives up very quickly. She is still beautiful to me but she sadly doesn't buy it... :(
You're so right.  It HAS to start from her.
Losing weight is difficult. And such a slow process, if you do it right.
:heart: It's hard to bang your heart against some mad buggers wall  someone that doesn't believe you.
  I know women who are perfectly happy weighing 250, 300 pounds
Well she isn't one of them. She thought she was fat and overweight when we met and she weighed 130 then. She would give up a finger to be that weight again...




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