Entre_Perpetuo Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 New discussion point--my qualm with LZ: Often times I find when I'm listening to LZ that I love the vocals, drums, and bass consistently, but Page is a total wild card. He might play something really cool and inspired, or he might fumble around for notes in a pretty amateur sounding manner, and often times I find he does a bit of both. I suppose it's mostly his leads I'm talking about, but he takes so many of them, it just seems like they could sound a bit less...sloppy? You know he was a heroin addict from about 1975 until 1980, right? Are you talking about before 1975? I tend to assume nearly anyone famous in that decade was on some kind of drugs, but most of them still manage to sound consistenly good, bad, average, inspiring, etc. Page just makes me mad because I often feel like he had much more potential had he just worked harder. are you talking about his live performances? I don't find page's studio work sloppy or amateur at all. maybe "loose" or "unstructured" at times, but led zeppelin doesn't need al di meola or allan holdsworth. page's flaws just add to the sexiness of the led! Well amateur might not be the right word, but I often get the impression that he could play better but doesn't care enough to, now that I think about it I don't really hear much if this on Zep II, so maybe it came with fame.The sloppiness is the bluesy aspect of Zeppelin. It's intentional.Jimmy Page was the top session musician in England pre-Led Zeppelin. You don't achieve that by being a "sloppy" player. I once bought into the "Jimmy Page is a sloppy player" narrative. But, when I give Led Zeppelin a focused listen I find his playing anything but sloppy. Raw. Emotional. Free. At times, brilliant. But not sloppy. Well, I don't think listening any closer is gonna make me think he couldn't've played better at this point, though I do think he could be an amazing player when he wanted to and certainly had the background for it. Once again, maybe I'm choosing the wrong words ("amateurish," "sloppy"), but something about roughly half of his playing rubs me the wrong way and comes off as kind of not-cared-for. He does have some particularly great moments on most tracks though, and somehow the guitar break in Heartbreaker manages to take exactly what I'm talking about with him and turns it into something wonderful and extraordinary, where it usually comes off as under rehearsed or underwritten or something. Spontanaity's great and totally bluesy/jazzy when it sounds good, but when you're just making noise up there because you've not put much thought into what you'll play, you tend to lose my attention and a bit of my respect.Can you provide more examples of Page not putting much thought into what he plays? Okay. So I went back and did some closer listening to find places where I felt Page's playing didn't strike me in a good way, and I found that I wasn't quite right about what I didn't like about some of his playing. It's not that he didn't put much thought into his leads and such, because they all sounded like pretty developed and at least supportive ideas, though I contest that he looked totally unprofessional and sounded at least at bit like I was saying of him earlier in a modern day LZ concert (with Bonzo's son behind the kit I think) my dad and I saw on TV. I think my main issue is that he often has cool ideas of what to play, but he plays them really laid back when (I feel/IMO) the ideas he plays could do with a bit more emphasis and focus. Thus, I get kind of a blurry effect from his leads and such unless I listen closely, as he often doesn't emphasize his leads and solos as much as the main riffs and backing guitar parts in a song. Notable examples inclue the aforementioned leads and solos on STH and NQ, which I find directly appealing because they're given a ton of weight and emphasis and played much more intensely. Not that I don't like or appreciate his laid back style, but, when he plays more melodic notes, his laid back rhythm gets in the way for me. So no, he's not sloppy, and he's certainly not amateurish, but he is more laid back than I think he should be at times, not really presenting his cool ideas as strongly as my ear might prefer. But I can hear the ideas quite well when I listen closer, which is great. So that's what I have to say on that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorraine Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 New discussion point--my qualm with LZ: Often times I find when I'm listening to LZ that I love the vocals, drums, and bass consistently, but Page is a total wild card. He might play something really cool and inspired, or he might fumble around for notes in a pretty amateur sounding manner, and often times I find he does a bit of both. I suppose it's mostly his leads I'm talking about, but he takes so many of them, it just seems like they could sound a bit less...sloppy? You know he was a heroin addict from about 1975 until 1980, right? Are you talking about before 1975? I tend to assume nearly anyone famous in that decade was on some kind of drugs, but most of them still manage to sound consistenly good, bad, average, inspiring, etc. Page just makes me mad because I often feel like he had much more potential had he just worked harder. are you talking about his live performances? I don't find page's studio work sloppy or amateur at all. maybe "loose" or "unstructured" at times, but led zeppelin doesn't need al di meola or allan holdsworth. page's flaws just add to the sexiness of the led! Well amateur might not be the right word, but I often get the impression that he could play better but doesn't care enough to, now that I think about it I don't really hear much if this on Zep II, so maybe it came with fame.The sloppiness is the bluesy aspect of Zeppelin. It's intentional.Jimmy Page was the top session musician in England pre-Led Zeppelin. You don't achieve that by being a "sloppy" player. I once bought into the "Jimmy Page is a sloppy player" narrative. But, when I give Led Zeppelin a focused listen I find his playing anything but sloppy. Raw. Emotional. Free. At times, brilliant. But not sloppy. I happen to agree completely with you, and I never realized how brilliant he was until I was able to watch him. He makes Alex look like an amateur. I know that won't be a popular opinion around here but, nevertheless, it is one that I hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReRushed Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 New discussion point--my qualm with LZ: Often times I find when I'm listening to LZ that I love the vocals, drums, and bass consistently, but Page is a total wild card. He might play something really cool and inspired, or he might fumble around for notes in a pretty amateur sounding manner, and often times I find he does a bit of both. I suppose it's mostly his leads I'm talking about, but he takes so many of them, it just seems like they could sound a bit less...sloppy? You know he was a heroin addict from about 1975 until 1980, right? Are you talking about before 1975? I tend to assume nearly anyone famous in that decade was on some kind of drugs, but most of them still manage to sound consistenly good, bad, average, inspiring, etc. Page just makes me mad because I often feel like he had much more potential had he just worked harder. are you talking about his live performances? I don't find page's studio work sloppy or amateur at all. maybe "loose" or "unstructured" at times, but led zeppelin doesn't need al di meola or allan holdsworth. page's flaws just add to the sexiness of the led! Well amateur might not be the right word, but I often get the impression that he could play better but doesn't care enough to, now that I think about it I don't really hear much if this on Zep II, so maybe it came with fame.The sloppiness is the bluesy aspect of Zeppelin. It's intentional.Jimmy Page was the top session musician in England pre-Led Zeppelin. You don't achieve that by being a "sloppy" player. I once bought into the "Jimmy Page is a sloppy player" narrative. But, when I give Led Zeppelin a focused listen I find his playing anything but sloppy. Raw. Emotional. Free. At times, brilliant. But not sloppy. I happen to agree completely with you, and I never realized how brilliant he was until I was able to watch him. He makes Alex look like an amateur. I know that won't be a popular opinion around here but, nevertheless, it is one that I hold.You can definitely see Jimmy Page's influence in the way Alex Lifeson plays the guitar, but I would never describe Alex's talent as amateur. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorraine Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 New discussion point--my qualm with LZ: Often times I find when I'm listening to LZ that I love the vocals, drums, and bass consistently, but Page is a total wild card. He might play something really cool and inspired, or he might fumble around for notes in a pretty amateur sounding manner, and often times I find he does a bit of both. I suppose it's mostly his leads I'm talking about, but he takes so many of them, it just seems like they could sound a bit less...sloppy? You know he was a heroin addict from about 1975 until 1980, right? Are you talking about before 1975? I tend to assume nearly anyone famous in that decade was on some kind of drugs, but most of them still manage to sound consistenly good, bad, average, inspiring, etc. Page just makes me mad because I often feel like he had much more potential had he just worked harder. are you talking about his live performances? I don't find page's studio work sloppy or amateur at all. maybe "loose" or "unstructured" at times, but led zeppelin doesn't need al di meola or allan holdsworth. page's flaws just add to the sexiness of the led! Well amateur might not be the right word, but I often get the impression that he could play better but doesn't care enough to, now that I think about it I don't really hear much if this on Zep II, so maybe it came with fame.The sloppiness is the bluesy aspect of Zeppelin. It's intentional.Jimmy Page was the top session musician in England pre-Led Zeppelin. You don't achieve that by being a "sloppy" player. I once bought into the "Jimmy Page is a sloppy player" narrative. But, when I give Led Zeppelin a focused listen I find his playing anything but sloppy. Raw. Emotional. Free. At times, brilliant. But not sloppy. I happen to agree completely with you, and I never realized how brilliant he was until I was able to watch him. He makes Alex look like an amateur. I know that won't be a popular opinion around here but, nevertheless, it is one that I hold.You can definitely see Jimmy Page's influence in the way Alex Lifeson plays the guitar, but I would never describe Alex's talent as amateur. I didn't say that he had amateur talent. I wrote: "He makes Alex look like an amateur." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entre_Perpetuo Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 As I said in the Xanadu vs. Kashmir thread, Jimmy's pretty cool, but I'll take Alex over him every day of the week for the next forever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReRushed Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 New discussion point--my qualm with LZ: Often times I find when I'm listening to LZ that I love the vocals, drums, and bass consistently, but Page is a total wild card. He might play something really cool and inspired, or he might fumble around for notes in a pretty amateur sounding manner, and often times I find he does a bit of both. I suppose it's mostly his leads I'm talking about, but he takes so many of them, it just seems like they could sound a bit less...sloppy? You know he was a heroin addict from about 1975 until 1980, right? Are you talking about before 1975? I tend to assume nearly anyone famous in that decade was on some kind of drugs, but most of them still manage to sound consistenly good, bad, average, inspiring, etc. Page just makes me mad because I often feel like he had much more potential had he just worked harder. are you talking about his live performances? I don't find page's studio work sloppy or amateur at all. maybe "loose" or "unstructured" at times, but led zeppelin doesn't need al di meola or allan holdsworth. page's flaws just add to the sexiness of the led! Well amateur might not be the right word, but I often get the impression that he could play better but doesn't care enough to, now that I think about it I don't really hear much if this on Zep II, so maybe it came with fame.The sloppiness is the bluesy aspect of Zeppelin. It's intentional.Jimmy Page was the top session musician in England pre-Led Zeppelin. You don't achieve that by being a "sloppy" player. I once bought into the "Jimmy Page is a sloppy player" narrative. But, when I give Led Zeppelin a focused listen I find his playing anything but sloppy. Raw. Emotional. Free. At times, brilliant. But not sloppy. I happen to agree completely with you, and I never realized how brilliant he was until I was able to watch him. He makes Alex look like an amateur. I know that won't be a popular opinion around here but, nevertheless, it is one that I hold.You can definitely see Jimmy Page's influence in the way Alex Lifeson plays the guitar, but I would never describe Alex's talent as amateur. I didn't say that he had amateur talent. I wrote: "He makes Alex look like an amateur."Semantics! I think Jimmy Page is a tremendous talent, but I certainly don't agree that his playing makes Alex Lifeson look like a amateur. Push comes to shove, I think Jimmy Page is a better musician than Alex, but I'll always prefer Alex over Jimmy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorraine Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 New discussion point--my qualm with LZ: Often times I find when I'm listening to LZ that I love the vocals, drums, and bass consistently, but Page is a total wild card. He might play something really cool and inspired, or he might fumble around for notes in a pretty amateur sounding manner, and often times I find he does a bit of both. I suppose it's mostly his leads I'm talking about, but he takes so many of them, it just seems like they could sound a bit less...sloppy? You know he was a heroin addict from about 1975 until 1980, right? Are you talking about before 1975? I tend to assume nearly anyone famous in that decade was on some kind of drugs, but most of them still manage to sound consistenly good, bad, average, inspiring, etc. Page just makes me mad because I often feel like he had much more potential had he just worked harder. are you talking about his live performances? I don't find page's studio work sloppy or amateur at all. maybe "loose" or "unstructured" at times, but led zeppelin doesn't need al di meola or allan holdsworth. page's flaws just add to the sexiness of the led! Well amateur might not be the right word, but I often get the impression that he could play better but doesn't care enough to, now that I think about it I don't really hear much if this on Zep II, so maybe it came with fame.The sloppiness is the bluesy aspect of Zeppelin. It's intentional.Jimmy Page was the top session musician in England pre-Led Zeppelin. You don't achieve that by being a "sloppy" player. I once bought into the "Jimmy Page is a sloppy player" narrative. But, when I give Led Zeppelin a focused listen I find his playing anything but sloppy. Raw. Emotional. Free. At times, brilliant. But not sloppy. I happen to agree completely with you, and I never realized how brilliant he was until I was able to watch him. He makes Alex look like an amateur. I know that won't be a popular opinion around here but, nevertheless, it is one that I hold.You can definitely see Jimmy Page's influence in the way Alex Lifeson plays the guitar, but I would never describe Alex's talent as amateur. I didn't say that he had amateur talent. I wrote: "He makes Alex look like an amateur."Semantics! I think Jimmy Page is a tremendous talent, but I certainly don't agree that his playing makes Alex Lifeson look like a amateur. Push comes to shove, I think Jimmy Page is a better musician than Alex, but I'll always prefer Alex over Jimmy. It's cloudy out and I say: "It looks like rain." Doesn't mean that it is raining. Someone isn't smiling and I say: "It's looks like something happened." Doesn't mean that something something did. I'm not asking you to agree with me. It's my opinion. And I'm entitled to it as much as you are your own. :cheers: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom55 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) On this day in 1969, this album was released :haz: http://youtu.be/Mln0RciE2o0 Edited October 22, 2015 by custom55 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorraine Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) Right around the time of Abbey Road and Court of the Crimson King. That was some Autumn. I remember it well. The greatest gift for me that Fall was the discovery of Days of Future Passed. Edited October 22, 2015 by Lorraine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorraine Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 :musicnote: And if I say to you tomorrow.... :musicnote: 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goose Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 :musicnote: And if I say to you tomorrow.... :musicnote: :musicnote: Do Be Do Bop Bop M' Doo Whoah :musicnote: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod in Toronto Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 The musicianship and relevance of Physical Grafitti is undeniable, and I would have voted for it. I just have a soft spot for ITTOD...it was their first album I heard. I got it from an uncle back in the early 80´s just as I was getting into rock and metal. I still listen to it every now and then, and enjoy every minute of it. Of course, I had the benefit of experiencing it before I heard everything else in their catalogue, otherwise I probably would loathe it, just like many others in th forum do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReRushed Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 The musicianship and relevance of Physical Grafitti is undeniable, and I would have voted for it. I just have a soft spot for ITTOD...it was their first album I heard. I got it from an uncle back in the early 80´s just as I was getting into rock and metal. I still listen to it every now and then, and enjoy every minute of it. Of course, I had the benefit of experiencing it before I heard everything else in their catalogue, otherwise I probably would loathe it, just like many others in th forum do.I can understand it not being someone's favorite or least favorite Led Zeppelin album, but to loathe it is baffling. It's a good album. I guess "true" fans felt betrayed? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom55 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 enough said 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital Dad Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 The musicianship and relevance of Physical Grafitti is undeniable, and I would have voted for it. I just have a soft spot for ITTOD...it was their first album I heard. I got it from an uncle back in the early 80´s just as I was getting into rock and metal. I still listen to it every now and then, and enjoy every minute of it. Of course, I had the benefit of experiencing it before I heard everything else in their catalogue, otherwise I probably would loathe it, just like many others in th forum do. That's the magic of music right there. No matter how anyone else feels about it it still holds a place for you. No one can take that place away. It's all yours. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digital Dad Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 PG is my favorite followed by II and then Presence. The rest I like about as much equally. Pretty solid catalog imo. Live they were a beast despite Page's overall sloppy playing. I have realized he's not so much worried about being precise as he is about looking like a complete badass on stage, and one has to give him much credit for that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorraine Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Does anyone know if Robert's hair was naturally curly like that or did he get permanents all the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleMoon Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Does anyone know if Robert's hair was naturally curly like that or did he get permanents all the time? From looking at his childhood photos I would say his hair is probably naturally wavy. When it was curly probably he had a permanent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorraine Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Does anyone know if Robert's hair was naturally curly like that or did he get permanents all the time? From looking at his childhood photos I would say his hair is probably naturally wavy. When it was curly probably he had a permanent. Too bad you couldn't have seen me laugh when I saw the picture. It's priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleMoon Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Does anyone know if Robert's hair was naturally curly like that or did he get permanents all the time? From looking at his childhood photos I would say his hair is probably naturally wavy. When it was curly probably he had a permanent. Too bad you couldn't have seen me laugh when I saw the picture. It's priceless. :) Here's all of them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjbear05 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) New discussion point--my qualm with LZ: Often times I find when I'm listening to LZ that I love the vocals, drums, and bass consistently, but Page is a total wild card. He might play something really cool and inspired, or he might fumble around for notes in a pretty amateur sounding manner, and often times I find he does a bit of both. I suppose it's mostly his leads I'm talking about, but he takes so many of them, it just seems like they could sound a bit less...sloppy? You know he was a heroin addict from about 1975 until 1980, right? Are you talking about before 1975? From the various things I've read, I believe he didn't kick heroin until about 1984. I never got involved with it, either, but early in my recovery, I was friends with some people who had been. How a person maintains as a performing musician when addicted to it is beyond my understanding. Same goes for all of the great jazz and blues players who had a history with it, going back to the 1950s- Charles Mingus, Billie Holiday, Ray Charles...and on and on.Mingus said "If God made anything better, He kept for himself. " Edited November 11, 2015 by pjbear05 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutlefan Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 PG is my favorite followed by II and then Presence. The rest I like about as much equally. Pretty solid catalog imo. Live they were a beast despite Page's overall sloppy playing. I have realized he's not so much worried about being precise as he is about looking like a complete badass on stage, and one has to give him much credit for that. If you think about it, he's usually playing two or three guitar parts at once when he's playing live. Maybe an indication of his overlarge ego, but still pretty amazing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorraine Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) He's Alex's idol. I read the other day when Alex finally met him in the nineties. To hear Alex tell the story is amazing - our icon meeting his own icon. Edited November 12, 2015 by Lorraine 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue J Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 New discussion point--my qualm with LZ: Often times I find when I'm listening to LZ that I love the vocals, drums, and bass consistently, but Page is a total wild card. He might play something really cool and inspired, or he might fumble around for notes in a pretty amateur sounding manner, and often times I find he does a bit of both. I suppose it's mostly his leads I'm talking about, but he takes so many of them, it just seems like they could sound a bit less...sloppy? You know he was a heroin addict from about 1975 until 1980, right? Are you talking about before 1975? From the various things I've read, I believe he didn't kick heroin until about 1984. I never got involved with it, either, but early in my recovery, I was friends with some people who had been. How a person maintains as a performing musician when addicted to it is beyond my understanding. Same goes for all of the great jazz and blues players who had a history with it, going back to the 1950s- Charles Mingus, Billie Holiday, Ray Charles...and on and on.Mingus said "If God made anything better, He kept for himself. " Another Mingus fan, are you? :) I mean I loved his playing, and his arrangements. He was a great, quiet and understated bandleader as well. His smack habit, I didn't love so much. But he saw it as part of the art that he made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue J Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Does anyone know if Robert's hair was naturally curly like that or did he get permanents all the time? From looking at his childhood photos I would say his hair is probably naturally wavy. When it was curly probably he had a permanent. Too bad you couldn't have seen me laugh when I saw the picture. It's priceless. That is pretty funny! I've never seen that before. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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