What's with all the Clockwork Angels hate?

[Pause Rewind Replay]

QUOTE (presto123 @ Jun 26 2012, 08:17 PM)

I don't see a lot of hate. It's the same few predictable posters going through the motions basically.

Bingo. There's a lot more love than hate for CA and deservedly so. It's just that the usual suspects whom we could see coming from Cygnus X-1 keep spewing into every possible thread over and over and over and over that gives the impression of more hate than there really is.

 

The overall positive consensus is far higher for CA than it was for S&A.

[Stormtron]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 26 2012, 11:12 PM)

There are people in this world that think Justin Bieber is more interesting than Rush. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Everything is wrong with that.

[OGr8imL84AD8inF8sBlackSedan]

I'm not seeing a lot of hate. There are few who don't like it and are pretty vocal about it, but I've seen more love for this record than any other in years.

[JohnnyBlaze]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 27 2012, 10:10 AM)

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e85/rushgoober6/crazy-pills.jpg So this must be what people feel like when I've put down VT, because honestly, I'm not fathoming why people are hating on this really amazing new album Rush just put out. I know it's still early on in the game, but it's surpassed my expectations by such a wide margin that I wouldn't have thought it possible. This album really has a ridiculous level of depth to it. I was hoping against hope for 2 or 3 great songs, and it's got more like 8 or 9 or 10, and a few of those are some real classics! The only song I really don't dig is BU2B2, and that's only 90 seconds! Seriously, a band at this age making music THIS good is virtually unheard of, especially considering their track record for the past 25 years has not been without its low points. Anyway, I've been hesitant to express quite this level of enthusiasm before, as I know it takes a good 6 months to a year for an album to really sink in, and it's possible my opinion of the album could still drop over time as it did with S&A to an extent, but some of the recent hate has seriously puzzled me, and I had to write about it. Surely some of those who aren't liking CA will be commenting in this thread, and just know that that in my mind, and in many others' minds, that you are SERIOUSLY missing out. I feel sorry for you, because this is a great, great latter day Rush album.

goobs, you probably have more posts about your hatred of VT in the last 2 hours than the number of hate posts I've seen about CA in the last 2 weeks.

 

Really though, there seems to be a lot less hate for this album than for what s&A had when it came out. Or don't you remember?

[Gedneil Alpeart]

QUOTE (An Enemy Without @ Jun 26 2012, 11:03 PM)

QUOTE (Gedneil Alpeart @ Jun 26 2012, 10:26 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 26 2012, 10:12 PM) Opinions. There are people in this world that think Justin Bieber is more interesting than Rush. Nothing wrong with that at all. Rush fans get this idea that if they love a Rush album then every other Rush fan should like it. I think Signals is a dull piece of garbage after albums like 2112-MP, but I see people here all the time that love it. Does it matter if someone doesnt like something you like? I sure hope not for a band who's covered so many styles. Same thing with CA. I think overall it's a really dull and lazy effort. The things I loved about 2112-MP is completely absent on this album. Each song sounds like it was just jammed out in 2 days in a studio, but you happen to love it. It doesnt matter what I think or what you think. We just share our opinions and move on. No point in arguing. Just let people say what they feel. The problem is that you just dont express your dislike for CA and move on. You are constantly putting it down in almost every thread, shoving your negativity in our faces every chance you get, never say anything you like about the album, think that your opinion is BETTER than everyone else's because of your music "credentials" and just act so obnoxious in the way you come across. You piss a lot of people off.....not because you dont like CA, but the way you promote yourself above others and how you completely minimize and dismiss CA. Heck, the other day, you would not even   ACKNOWLEDGE the high strings sound in the Anarchist until I forced you to admit it eventually. Yiu were 100% certain, in your words, that it was the sound of Ged's vocals only, as if to try and minimize what the OP was ezcited about. Even the OP proved you wrong.   You are so full of yourself. This is a forum to talk about CA, not take a swipe at it every chance you get. For an album that you put down so much, why do you keep posting here??? Your rampant negativity is something a lot of us DONT want to see. Ok, you dont like CA. I can live with that. But quit shoving that opinion in our faces all the time and respect our love for it! Remember what I said about taking things way too personally? Who are you....Trenken's Daddy? I dont take opinions personally, but I do take haters and assholes personally on a forum dedicated to something I enjoy and feel positive sbout.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Gedneil Alpeart

[Todem]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 26 2012, 11:12 PM)

Opinions. There are people in this world that think Justin Bieber is more interesting than Rush. Nothing wrong with that at all. Rush fans get this idea that if they love a Rush album then every other Rush fan should like it. I think Signals is a dull piece of garbage after albums like 2112-MP, but I see people here all the time that love it. Does it matter if someone doesnt like something you like? I sure hope not for a band who's covered so many styles. Same thing with CA. I think overall it's a really dull and lazy effort. The things I loved about 2112-MP is completely absent on this album. Each song sounds like it was just jammed out in 2 days in a studio, but you happen to love it. It doesnt matter what I think or what you think. We just share our opinions and move on. No point in arguing. Just let people say what they feel.

I totally agree with your post in the sense about opinions and music being totally subjective.

 

I remember a ton of Rush fans back in 82 bailing on the band after Signals. I loved the album...and when I was 12 years old I defended it with a passion.

 

But as I grew older....you learn that opinions are like assholes.

 

I never understood why people get so heated about music. It's art...not government policy.

 

Freedom is a wonderful thing.

 

What I don't like though is obvious trolling by so caaled Rush fans who bait people into the heated flame wars. It is ridiculous. And fans are foolish who always take the bait.

 

And I also get slightly annoyed with rose colored fans. Where Rush can and has never done wrong. They themselves have admitted mis-steps. Every band makes them.

 

I am a true die hard fan but I can listen with an objective ear and have good conversation with other Rush fans who want to discuss the finer details of their music. I would not be a musician if it were not for Rush. They have given me life long inspiration and I love their music, but I can also be objective about certain albums or songs or sound decisions.

 

It's fun. It is what keeps things interesting around here and keeps the conversation going.

 

I just think the Trolls (and they are on both sides of the fence) can try to ruin the fun a lot of us try to have.

[Ged Lent's sis]

@rushgoober

It depends on what you mean by "hate". Not spending a lot of time on the forum, I end up coming upon threads after the crapstorm has already set in; that is, the hate has already begun to get slung in every direction. Therefore, I am replying to this OP without reading what came after it. The hate, as it is, I suppose sometimes comes from when someone trolls exaggerated criticism. In such cases, equal-and-opposite overreaction is to be expected. And so on.

 

But I have noticed a trend, that when someone tries to have a discussion about the fact that they don't care for an album, they get belittled as not being a true fan, if not called outright stupid. Some of this has to do with the way people communicate on The Net, trying to be clever and snarky, I suppose.

 

As regards your OP: What you say about the album in the wider context is telling:

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 26 2012, 08:10 PM)

...it's surpassed my expectations by such a wide margin that I wouldn't have thought it possible. ...I was hoping against hope for 2 or 3 great songs, and it's got more like 8 or 9 or 10, and a few of those are some real classics!

So you had really low expectations? Might that be because you didn't like a more recent work? Did you not like that previous effort to an extent that one might misinterpret your opinion about it as "hate"?

 

I have seen on this forum thusfar expressions of everything from gushing praise, measured scepticism, outright disappointment, to severe dislike. The reactions to those expressions varied less than the original criticisms: Everything from "keep listening to it, and if you don't like it you're stupid" to "your stupid, Rush knows better than you." I think trolls love nothing more than to garner those kinds of responses.

 

But it seems to me that there are two good places to discuss what or why we don't like something the band has put out: 1) Threads about that topic. 2) Threads like this one, which ask the question. I hasten to add here: For those who get into "it's only your opinion" pissing matches, No friggin' duh! It should not be necessary to type IMO. Any time you are talking about an affinity for the music, or a distaste of the same, it is your opinion.

 

Back to the OP:

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 26 2012, 08:10 PM)

This album really has a ridiculous level of depth to it.

Pretty strong statement. I cannot share your opinion. Firstly, the sound quality has made it difficult to listen to. Nevertheless, repeatedly listen to it I have. Just like I repeatedly listened to Moving Pictures, Signals, P/G, Power Windows, and Hold Your Fire repeatedly. Why? Because it took me a while to appreciate their brilliance.

 

But like many Rush fans (and many opinions on this forum bear this out), part of Hold Your Fire, most of Presto, almost all of Roll the Bones lost me in spite of giving all of them a go. And like many of the aforementioned opinions, I was won over by Counterparts. Perhaps like you, rushgoober, I had low expectations based upon the previous couple of records. Therefore I was thrilled.

 

So as a Rush fan, I give every single album tries upon multiple-tries before I come to any hard conclusions. I did so with Clockwork Angels, as I did with Snakes and Arrows and Vapor Trails. You see, Test for Echo solidified my lower expectations that had begun to surface in the early 90s.

 

It doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the band. It doesn't mean that I am gonna stop giving each record a fair chance. All the World's a Stage and 2112 were my first two albums. Permanent Waves was my first concert. Every album I got after that exceeded very high expectations. That began to wane with side two of Hold Your Fire. But because of the great work these guys have done, I am always ready for another Counterparts. (I am talking about an album that will surprise me, not the style or era.)

 

I am thrilled that Rush are still going at it and have maintained the successful following (that began in ernst in the 80s). But I don't like Clockwork Angels. I wish it had been mixed differently, then I might be able to warm to it for what it is. But I can't even do that.

 

AND BACK TO THE HATE: I don't hate anything Rush have done. Some people clearly do and have a problem expressing themselves in a pleasant fashion. On the other hand, some people are quick to label criticism as hate.

 

Why, do people join a thread only to tell the poster of that thread that he or she should leave? Where better for a Rush fan to go to discuss their one or more little disappointments than a Rush forum? Wouldn't it be better for some folks if they just stayed away from certain threads, if they have a problem with other folks' opinions?

[Gompers]

I like it quite a lot, but it is fun to poke holes in it because LostIt2K's annoying fanboi-ism tempts me.

 

 

 

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (JohnnyBlaze @ Jun 27 2012, 03:04 AM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 27 2012, 10:10 AM) http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e85/rushgoober6/crazy-pills.jpg So this must be what people feel like when I've put down VT, because honestly, I'm not fathoming why people are hating on this really amazing new album Rush just put out.  I know it's still early on in the game, but it's surpassed my expectations by such a wide margin that I wouldn't have thought it possible. This album really has a ridiculous level of depth to it.  I was hoping against hope for 2 or 3 great songs, and it's got more like 8 or 9 or 10, and a few of those are some real classics!  The only song I really don't dig is BU2B2, and that's only 90 seconds!  Seriously, a band at this age making music THIS good is virtually unheard of, especially considering their track record for the past 25 years has not been without its low points. Anyway, I've been hesitant to express quite this level of enthusiasm before, as I know it takes a good 6 months to a year for an album to really sink in, and it's possible my opinion of the album could still drop over time as it did with S&A to an extent, but some of the recent hate has seriously puzzled me, and I had to write about it.  Surely some of those who aren't liking CA will be commenting in this thread, and just know that that in my mind,  and in many others' minds, that you are SERIOUSLY missing out.  I feel sorry for you, because this is a great, great latter day Rush album. goobs, you probably have more posts about your hatred of VT in the last 2 hours than the number of hate posts I've seen about CA in the last 2 weeks.   Really though, there seems to be a lot less hate for this album than for what s&A had when it came out. Or don't you remember? what i remember is almost universal praise about S&A when it came out, and that the backlash took a LONG time to show up.

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (Ged Lent's sis @ Jun 27 2012, 05:34 AM)

@rushgoober It depends on what you mean by "hate". Not spending a lot of time on the forum, I end up coming upon threads after the crapstorm has already set in; that is, the hate has already begun to get slung in every direction. Therefore, I am replying to this OP without reading what came after it. The hate, as it is, I suppose sometimes comes from when someone trolls exaggerated criticism. In such cases, equal-and-opposite overreaction is to be expected. And so on. But I have noticed a trend, that when someone tries to have a discussion about the fact that they don't care for an album, they get belittled as not being a true fan, if not called outright stupid. Some of this has to do with the way people communicate on The Net, trying to be clever and snarky, I suppose. As regards your OP: What you say about the album in the wider context is telling: QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 26 2012, 08:10 PM) ...it's surpassed my expectations by such a wide margin that I wouldn't have thought it possible. ...I was hoping against hope for 2 or 3 great songs, and it's got more like 8 or 9 or 10, and a few of those are some real classics! So you had really low expectations? Might that be because you didn't like a more recent work? Did you not like that previous effort to an extent that one might misinterpret your opinion about it as "hate"?   I have seen on this forum thusfar expressions of everything from gushing praise, measured scepticism, outright disappointment, to severe dislike. The reactions to those expressions varied less than the original criticisms: Everything from "keep listening to it, and if you don't like it you're stupid" to "your stupid, Rush knows better than you." I think trolls love nothing more than to garner those kinds of responses.   But it seems to me that there are two good places to discuss what or why we don't like something the band has put out: 1) Threads about that topic. 2) Threads like this one, which ask the question. I hasten to add here: For those who get into "it's only your opinion" pissing matches, No friggin' duh! It should not be necessary to type IMO. Any time you are talking about an affinity for the music, or a distaste of the same, it is your opinion.   Back to the OP: QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 26 2012, 08:10 PM) This album really has a ridiculous level of depth to it. Pretty strong statement. I cannot share your opinion. Firstly, the sound quality has made it difficult to listen to. Nevertheless, repeatedly listen to it I have. Just like I repeatedly listened to Moving Pictures, Signals, P/G, Power Windows, and Hold Your Fire repeatedly. Why? Because it took me a while to appreciate their brilliance.   But like many Rush fans (and many opinions on this forum bear this out), part of Hold Your Fire, most of Presto, almost all of Roll the Bones lost me in spite of giving all of them a go. And like many of the aforementioned opinions, I was won over by Counterparts. Perhaps like you, rushgoober, I had low expectations based upon the previous couple of records. Therefore I was thrilled.   So as a Rush fan, I give every single album tries upon multiple-tries before I come to any hard conclusions. I did so with Clockwork Angels, as I did with Snakes and Arrows and Vapor Trails. You see, Test for Echo solidified my lower expectations that had begun to surface in the early 90s.   It doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the band. It doesn't mean that I am gonna stop giving each record a fair chance. All the World's a Stage and 2112 were my first two albums. Permanent Waves was my first concert. Every album I got after that exceeded very high expectations. That began to wane with side two of Hold Your Fire. But because of the great work these guys have done, I am always ready for another Counterparts. (I am talking about an album that will surprise me, not the style or era.)   I am thrilled that Rush are still going at it and have maintained the successful following (that began in ernst in the 80s). But I don't like Clockwork Angels. I wish it had been mixed differently, then I might be able to warm to it for what it is. But I can't even do that.   AND BACK TO THE HATE: I don't hate anything Rush have done. Some people clearly do and have a problem expressing themselves in a pleasant fashion. On the other hand, some people are quick to label criticism as hate.   Why, do people join a thread only to tell the poster of that thread that he or she should leave? Where better for a Rush fan to go to discuss their one or more little disappointments than a Rush forum? Wouldn't it be better for some folks if they just stayed away from certain threads, if they have a problem with other folks' opinions? My low expectations were set by the fact that prior to the album being released, I didn't care for Caravan, REALLY didn't care for BU2B, and was less than very enthusiastic for Headlong Flight. Headlong Flight really started to grow on me a lot right before the album was released. The other two songs I didn't appreciate until VERY recently when I finally got to hear them in the context of the story - I had no story prior to that, only the promise that they came from a larger context.   I'm a fan of S&A. I don't love all of it, but I like or love a large portion of it, but I didn't like the two albums that came before it. Also, seemingly like you, I saw Counterparts as a huge comeback album after two very weak albums. S&A was like that for me to. SO, the combination of four weak albums out of the previous six (IMHO obviously), and the fact that I wasn't loving the new songs prior to the album release didn't give me a lot of hope.   Thankfully, not only did I get a lot of great new songs, but a complete turnaround of how I felt about the tracks I had already heard! Hence, an album that wildly surpassed my low expectations. Couldn't be happier about that!

[GeddyRulz]

Why so touchy, Gary? What little "hate" I've seen so far for CA is extremely mild compared to the GOBS of hate spilled on VT and then on S&A.

 

Sure, you didn't mind the hate spilled on VT because you were the biggest contributor, but still. How about the hate spilled on S&A? There was a lot more of it than there's been so far for CA.

 

 

[vital signz]

QUOTE (Merely Space @ Jun 26 2012, 09:43 PM)

I suspect the people who don't like it feel sickened by all the positive response, and feel the need to be all the more vocal to provide a counterpoint. I also suspect some folks feel the need to go against anything that is popular, even if it is only popular on this board.

Here's the thing though...The critics pretty much all are going crazy for this record. That was absolutely not the case for VT or S&A. So folks that aren't getting this, though entitled to their opinions of course, are by and large in a minority. I would say safely that 80-90% of folks who hear this are very impressed, pleased, moved in some way by it's brilliance.

[Gompers]

Hate spilled on VT is for damn good reason.

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Jun 27 2012, 06:26 AM)

Why so touchy, Gary? What little "hate" I've seen so far for CA is extremely mild compared to the GOBS of hate spilled on VT and then on S&A. Sure, you didn't mind the hate spilled on VT because you were the biggest contributor, but still. How about the hate spilled on S&A? There was a lot more of it than there's been so far for CA.

I haven't been a fan of the hate spilled on S&A either, but this album is so much more consistent that it makes even less sense to me.

 

VT, on the other hand, deserves all the hate it gets. If anything, it deserves a thread called "What's with all the Vapor Trails love?" Don't get it, never will.

[Gompers]

Edited June 27, 2012 by Gompers

[Gompers]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 27 2012, 09:33 AM)

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Jun 27 2012, 06:26 AM) Why so touchy, Gary?  What little "hate" I've seen so far for CA is extremely mild compared to the GOBS of hate spilled on VT and then on S&A.  Sure, you didn't mind the hate spilled on VT because you were the biggest contributor, but still.    How about the hate spilled on S&A?  There was a lot more of it than there's been so far for CA. I haven't been a fan of the hate spilled on S&A either, but this album is so much more consistent that it makes even less sense to me.   VT, on the other hand, deserves all the hate it gets. If anything, it deserves a thread called "What's with all the Vapor Trails love?" Don't get it, never will.   What he said.

[GeddyRulz]

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (Gompers @ Jun 27 2012, 08:31 AM)

Hate spilled on VT is for damn good reason.

you might not care for vt but the worst concert timeframe in any rush concert was the first 5 songs to start the second set on the s & a tour. it was complete and utter torture.

[metaldad]

[Khan]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Jun 27 2012, 09:26 AM)

Why so touchy, Gary?  What little "hate" I've seen so far for CA is extremely mild compared to the GOBS of hate spilled on VT and then on S&A.

No kidding...and S&A is way better than VT.

[metaldad]

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Jun 27 2012, 08:51 AM)

QUOTE (Gompers @ Jun 27 2012, 08:31 AM) Hate spilled on VT is for damn good reason. you might not care for vt but the worst concert timeframe in any rush concert was the first 5 songs to start the second set on the s & a tour. it was complete and utter torture.

[The Owl]

To the contrary thoung, I have not seen a Rush album get this much acclaim since the Moving picture days. (aside from counterparts, which most agree is a damn good album)

The synth era albums (sig-hyf) get a fair share of abuse due to the musical directioal change in the 80s, even though Signals and GuP are fantastic records IMO I see where alot do not like these albums (thuogh PW was mediocre in every sense, and HYF was other than a couple of tracks a terrible record)

Presto and RTB had their share of hate, much for good reasons (though I do find alot of RTB to be underrated) as well as T4E gets alot of criticism as it deserves as well.

VT ans SnA got quite a bit of criticism as well, though for different reasons.....CA in comparison to all the albums since Moving Pictures seems to be the most universally acclaimed album..

[GeddyRulz]

QUOTE (The Owl @ Jun 27 2012, 09:34 AM)

I have not seen a Rush album get this much acclaim since the Moving picture days... CA in comparison to all the albums since Moving Pictures seems to be the most universally acclaimed album..

I agree.

 

This is the closest we've come to a universal "thumbs up" consensus on a Rush album since the Internet started. Clockwork Angels is getting very very few "thumbs down" votes.

 

 

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Jun 27 2012, 07:38 AM)

QUOTE (The Owl @ Jun 27 2012, 09:34 AM) I have not seen a Rush album get this much acclaim since the Moving picture days... CA in comparison to all the albums since Moving Pictures seems to be the most universally acclaimed album.. I agree.   This is the closest we've come to a universal "thumbs up" consensus on a Rush album since the Internet started. Clockwork Angels is getting very very few "thumbs down" votes. I absolutely hear you, and that is very cool. I guess that's why the people hating on the album seem so incomprehensible to me. What are they hearing that the rest of us aren't?

[rcsrich]

I absolutely agree with the OP- great new "modern" Rush album with almost all killer tracks- it certainly surpassed my expectations! I've seen a fair share of comments about the mix (as per usual), but if you look at comments all over the interweb comparing the many remastered versions of the older albums, you don't see a general consensus on which is the better mix. It just shows me that unless you are talking about an album like VT with obvious sound issues, folks are always going to have different ideas about the mix. Edited June 27, 2012 by rcsrich