FountainOfSyrinx Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I'm loving the album, and i've been reading through the liner notes and all, but I do not understand the Anarchist? What are some of y'alls takes on the character and what does he represent in the Protagonist's journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILSnwdog Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Dread Pirate Robert. This will only make sense to the SOCN regulars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnify Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Just my initial interpretation- The Anarchist is an evildoer that holds the grudge against the world for what he lacks and sets up the protagonist at the Carnival (with some sort of detonator) (see "Carnies") The Anarchist is the first; the Wreckers are the second confrontation with this type of evil when take advantage of other's misery, kill the others, and nearly kill the protagonist. Along with the Pedlar, his illusions of love (Halo effect) and his search for the Seven Cities of Gold, that lead the protagonist to his current mental state - not harboring ill-will (Wish Them Well) and to measure his life by love and respect (The Garden) I'd like to hear other's interpretations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkingBig Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 QUOTE (FountainOfSyrinx @ Jun 12 2012, 03:39 PM) I'm loving the album, and i've been reading through the liner notes and all, but I do not understand the Anarchist? What are some of y'alls takes on the character and what does he represent in the Protagonist's journey. He's the opposite of the Watchmaker, chaos, disorder. There's obvious some history there, that will be revealed, I assume in the book. Anarchist is out for revenge as he feels slighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnify Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 12 2012, 03:48 PM) QUOTE (FountainOfSyrinx @ Jun 12 2012, 03:39 PM) I'm loving the album, and i've been reading through the liner notes and all, but I do not understand the Anarchist? What are some of y'alls takes on the character and what does he represent in the Protagonist's journey. He's the opposite of the Watchmaker, chaos, disorder. There's obvious some history there, that will be revealed, I assume in the book. Anarchist is out for revenge as he feels slighted. Good take! I'd like to further the question to "What do the clockwork angels represent?" They work for the Watchmaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
losingit2k Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 QUOTE (cygnify @ Jun 12 2012, 03:46 PM) Just my initial interpretation- The Anarchist is an evildoer that holds the grudge against the world for what he lacks and sets up the protagonist at the Carnival (with some sort of detonator) (see "Carnies") The Anarchist is the first; the Wreckers are the second confrontation with this type of evil when take advantage of other's misery, kill the others, and nearly kill the protagonist. Along with the Pedlar, his illusions of love (Halo effect) and his search for the Seven Cities of Gold, that lead the protagonist to his current mental state - not harboring ill-will (Wish Them Well) and to measure his life by love and respect (The Garden) I'd like to hear other's interpretations This is what I made out of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthshine Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 QUOTE (cygnify @ Jun 12 2012, 03:46 PM) Just my initial interpretation- The Anarchist is an evildoer that holds the grudge against the world for what he lacks and sets up the protagonist at the Carnival (with some sort of detonator) (see "Carnies") The Anarchist is the first; the Wreckers are the second confrontation with this type of evil when take advantage of other's misery, kill the others, and nearly kill the protagonist. Along with the Pedlar, his illusions of love (Halo effect) and his search for the Seven Cities of Gold, that lead the protagonist to his current mental state - not harboring ill-will (Wish Them Well) and to measure his life by love and respect (The Garden) I'd like to hear other's interpretations That sounds pretty accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthshine Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 12 2012, 03:48 PM) There's obvious some history there, that will be revealed, I assume in the book. I am sorry if I am late, but what book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush-O-Matic Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 QUOTE (Earthshine @ Jun 13 2012, 04:49 AM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 12 2012, 03:48 PM) There's obvious some history there, that will be revealed, I assume in the book. I am sorry if I am late, but what book? Kevin J Anderson's Blog Pre-order From Amazon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthshine Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 QUOTE (Rush-O-Matic @ Jun 13 2012, 08:04 AM) QUOTE (Earthshine @ Jun 13 2012, 04:49 AM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 12 2012, 03:48 PM) There's obvious some history there, that will be revealed, I assume in the book. I am sorry if I am late, but what book? Kevin J Anderson's Blog Pre-order From Amazon Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstmompj Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 12 2012, 03:48 PM) QUOTE (FountainOfSyrinx @ Jun 12 2012, 03:39 PM) I'm loving the album, and i've been reading through the liner notes and all, but I do not understand the Anarchist? What are some of y'alls takes on the character and what does he represent in the Protagonist's journey. He's the opposite of the Watchmaker, chaos, disorder. I see him as the opposite of the protagonist--life's vicissitudes cause him to become bitter and destructive to others whereas the protagonist learns to "wish them well" and focus on tending his own garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush-O-Matic Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 QUOTE (mstmompj @ Jun 14 2012, 08:45 AM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 12 2012, 03:48 PM) QUOTE (FountainOfSyrinx @ Jun 12 2012, 03:39 PM) I'm loving the album, and i've been reading through the liner notes and all, but I do not understand the Anarchist? What are some of y'alls takes on the character and what does he represent in the Protagonist's journey. He's the opposite of the Watchmaker, chaos, disorder. I see him as the opposite of the protagonist--life's vicissitudes cause him to become bitter and destructive to others whereas the protagonist learns to "wish them well" and focus on tending his own garden. Based on what Neil said in the Jim Ladd interview last night, I believe the Anarchist is the opposite of the Watchmaker, not the protagonist. The Watchmaker represents Order and the Anarchist represents Freedom (not chaos); anarchy is the idea that we are better off without "government" or "constraints" or "rules" - so, this Anarchist would believe in absolute freedom. The protagonist, in his journey was brought up to believe that all of the Watchmaker's world is the way things should be. He encounters the Anarchist who stokes the fire in the protagonist for a completely opposing set of ideals to the rigidity of the Watchmaker's world. I believe as our hero makes his way to the garden, he finds that freedom, maybe not as extreme as the Anarchist, but nonetheless recognizing that freer view. It's interesting to me that in Neil's interview, he admitted that the Watchmaker is benevolent. He is rigid, and I guess controlling, but he wants the best for the people. The Pedlar is the Watchmaker in digsuise, trying to find out what you lack in order to provide it (or, possibly convince you you don't really need it). The Anarchist, who is just short of a terrorist, really, wants the people (the protagonist included) to break free of the chains of the Watchmaker. The four Clockwork Angels are beautiful (and who doesn't love a carnival?), and there to remind the people to lean not on their own understanding; but, the Anarchist offers the beauty of freedom, and the idea that those Angels are just Carnies, hiding the reality that all that glitters is not gold. Or something . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Cocky Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 QUOTE (Rush-O-Matic @ Jun 14 2012, 10:37 AM) Based on what Neil said in the Jim Ladd interview last night, I believe the Anarchist is the opposite of the Watchmaker, not the protagonist. The Watchmaker represents Order and the Anarchist represents Freedom (not chaos); anarchy is the idea that we are better off without "government" or "constraints" or "rules" - so, this Anarchist would believe in absolute freedom. The protagonist, in his journey was brought up to believe that all of the Watchmaker's world is the way things should be. He encounters the Anarchist who stokes the fire in the protagonist for a completely opposing set of ideals to the rigidity of the Watchmaker's world. I believe as our hero makes his way to the garden, he finds that freedom, maybe not as extreme as the Anarchist, but nonetheless recognizing that freer view. It's interesting to me that in Neil's interview, he admitted that the Watchmaker is benevolent. He is rigid, and I guess controlling, but he wants the best for the people. The Pedlar is the Watchmaker in digsuise, trying to find out what you lack in order to provide it (or, possibly convince you you don't really need it). The Anarchist, who is just short of a terrorist, really, wants the people (the protagonist included) to break free of the chains of the Watchmaker. The four Clockwork Angels are beautiful (and who doesn't love a carnival?), and there to remind the people to lean not on their own understanding; but, the Anarchist offers the beauty of freedom, and the idea that those Angels are just Carnies, hiding the reality that all that glitters is not gold. Or something . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstmompj Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 QUOTE (Rush-O-Matic @ Jun 14 2012, 09:37 AM)QUOTE (mstmompj @ Jun 14 2012, 08:45 AM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 12 2012, 03:48 PM) QUOTE (FountainOfSyrinx @ Jun 12 2012, 03:39 PM) I'm loving the album, and i've been reading through the liner notes and all, but I do not understand the Anarchist? What are some of y'alls takes on the character and what does he represent in the Protagonist's journey. He's the opposite of the Watchmaker, chaos, disorder. I see him as the opposite of the protagonist--life's vicissitudes cause him to become bitter and destructive to others whereas the protagonist learns to "wish them well" and focus on tending his own garden. Based on what Neil said in the Jim Ladd interview last night, I believe the Anarchist is the opposite of the Watchmaker, not the protagonist. The Watchmaker represents Order and the Anarchist represents Freedom (not chaos); anarchy is the idea that we are better off without "government" or "constraints" or "rules" - so, this Anarchist would believe in absolute freedom. The protagonist, in his journey was brought up to believe that all of the Watchmaker's world is the way things should be. He encounters the Anarchist who stokes the fire in the protagonist for a completely opposing set of ideals to the rigidity of the Watchmaker's world. I believe as our hero makes his way to the garden, he finds that freedom, maybe not as extreme as the Anarchist, but nonetheless recognizing that freer view. It's interesting to me that in Neil's interview, he admitted that the Watchmaker is benevolent. He is rigid, and I guess controlling, but he wants the best for the people. The Pedlar is the Watchmaker in digsuise, trying to find out what you lack in order to provide it (or, possibly convince you you don't really need it). The Anarchist, who is just short of a terrorist, really, wants the people (the protagonist included) to break free of the chains of the Watchmaker. The four Clockwork Angels are beautiful (and who doesn't love a carnival?), and there to remind the people to lean not on their own understanding; but, the Anarchist offers the beauty of freedom, and the idea that those Angels are just Carnies, hiding the reality that all that glitters is not gold. Or something . . . I wish I'd heard the interview, so I appreciate your sharing some of the jist of it here (don't know if you're the one who also posted some notes at RIAB; if so, thanks for that, too). I can see the absolute freedom/absolute control axis here with the Anarchist and the Watchmaker, but I still posit that the protagonist represents a third alternative life philosophy that the reader/listener is meant to take as the most sympathetic choice. After all, even if the Watchmaker isn't evil intentioned, I don't think we're supposed to see the vision of control (the cradle-to-grave "nanny state," to use a modern political analogy, or perhaps the intentions of many religious groups, which are also intended out of charity but which too often end up being restrictive or intolerant) as the way to go, nor is the Anarchist's destructive approach meant to be our example (even if we are meant to empathize with his frustrations with inequity and with TPTB as Milton intended Satan to be a sympathetic-to-a-degree anti-hero in Paradise Lost). The protagonist, however is our Cygnus--though not a god, and just "a regular guy." He represents balance, a freedom that is largely just concerned with minding its own business and responding to others with tolerance (though not necessarily acceptance), not with remaking the world in his own image. Sounds a bit like what Neil has called his "bleeding-heart libertarianism." Speaking as an introvert myself, it also seems a typical introvert approach to life: just leave me alone and let me enjoy my own Garden. If you don't get in my face, we can co-exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeddyRulz Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Good stuff. Ah, but here's a question many of us have probably thought but nobody's asked yet: Why is "peddler" mis-spelled as "pedlar"? I'm sure it's intentional, but why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangiato Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Jun 14 2012, 03:15 PM) Good stuff. Ah, but here's a question many of us have probably thought but nobody's asked yet: Why is "peddler" mis-spelled as "pedlar"? I'm sure it's intentional, but why? Here is my best guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedlar The British English form and original spelling of peddler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronos Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Jun 14 2012, 03:15 PM) Why is "peddler" mis-spelled as "pedlar"? I'm sure it's intentional, but why? According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, pedlar is the preferred spelling in the U.K. (can our British friends verify?) Perhaps this is the preferred spelling in Canada as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstmompj Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Jun 14 2012, 03:15 PM)Why is "peddler" mis-spelled as "pedlar"? I'm sure it's intentional, but why? My guess is just the archaic/British usage is meant to suggest another place and time, but not be so "foreign" as to make people have to look up what the heck it means. I'll be honest, as a medievalist by training, I didn't even notice the alternate spelling "pedlar" until people on the forum started commenting on it. It seemed normal to me. What struck me as more out of place was the use of the word "score" (in the sense of "steal") in "The Wreckers." It seems jarringly modern to me. But hey, at least, the rhyme scheme is preserved and it's still metrical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Rebel Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 QUOTE (mstmompj @ Jun 14 2012, 02:56 PM) QUOTE (Rush-O-Matic @ Jun 14 2012, 09:37 AM)QUOTE (mstmompj @ Jun 14 2012, 08:45 AM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 12 2012, 03:48 PM) QUOTE (FountainOfSyrinx @ Jun 12 2012, 03:39 PM) I'm loving the album, and i've been reading through the liner notes and all, but I do not understand the Anarchist? What are some of y'alls takes on the character and what does he represent in the Protagonist's journey. He's the opposite of the Watchmaker, chaos, disorder. I see him as the opposite of the protagonist--life's vicissitudes cause him to become bitter and destructive to others whereas the protagonist learns to "wish them well" and focus on tending his own garden. Based on what Neil said in the Jim Ladd interview last night, I believe the Anarchist is the opposite of the Watchmaker, not the protagonist. The Watchmaker represents Order and the Anarchist represents Freedom (not chaos); anarchy is the idea that we are better off without "government" or "constraints" or "rules" - so, this Anarchist would believe in absolute freedom. The protagonist, in his journey was brought up to believe that all of the Watchmaker's world is the way things should be. He encounters the Anarchist who stokes the fire in the protagonist for a completely opposing set of ideals to the rigidity of the Watchmaker's world. I believe as our hero makes his way to the garden, he finds that freedom, maybe not as extreme as the Anarchist, but nonetheless recognizing that freer view. It's interesting to me that in Neil's interview, he admitted that the Watchmaker is benevolent. He is rigid, and I guess controlling, but he wants the best for the people. The Pedlar is the Watchmaker in digsuise, trying to find out what you lack in order to provide it (or, possibly convince you you don't really need it). The Anarchist, who is just short of a terrorist, really, wants the people (the protagonist included) to break free of the chains of the Watchmaker. The four Clockwork Angels are beautiful (and who doesn't love a carnival?), and there to remind the people to lean not on their own understanding; but, the Anarchist offers the beauty of freedom, and the idea that those Angels are just Carnies, hiding the reality that all that glitters is not gold. Or something . . . I wish I'd heard the interview, so I appreciate your sharing some of the jist of it here (don't know if you're the one who also posted some notes at RIAB; if so, thanks for that, too). I can see the absolute freedom/absolute control axis here with the Anarchist and the Watchmaker, but I still posit that the protagonist represents a third alternative life philosophy that the reader/listener is meant to take as the most sympathetic choice. After all, even if the Watchmaker isn't evil intentioned, I don't think we're supposed to see the vision of control (the cradle-to-grave "nanny state," to use a modern political analogy, or perhaps the intentions of many religious groups, which are also intended out of charity but which too often end up being restrictive or intolerant) as the way to go, nor is the Anarchist's destructive approach meant to be our example (even if we are meant to empathize with his frustrations with inequity and with TPTB as Milton intended Satan to be a sympathetic-to-a-degree anti-hero in Paradise Lost). The protagonist, however is our Cygnus--though not a god, and just "a regular guy." He represents balance, a freedom that is largely just concerned with minding its own business and responding to others with tolerance (though not necessarily acceptance), not with remaking the world in his own image. Sounds a bit like what Neil has called his "bleeding-heart libertarianism." Speaking as an introvert myself, it also seems a typical introvert approach to life: just leave me alone and let me enjoy my own Garden. If you don't get in my face, we can co-exist. Excellent post. As far as the Control vs Freedom axis I think we'll see the story unfold as the protagonist (Cygnus) charachter coming to the realization that the universe isn't controlled by the Angels. The issue or contention over the Clockwork Universe Theory is whether there is somone behind the scenes who created the clocks and runs everything, (control), or whether the universe is simply set in motion by the big bang and follows set rules with no controlling influence (laws of physics) which some argue negate free will. The anarchist probably brings the fraud of the Watchmaker to light but also goes to extremes with the (freedom) and seems to be somewhat as Neil says, narcissistic. Finding out that the faith you have been "brought up believing", that all you held to be facts about the world can be soul crushing. We see this from many people attacking Neil for his "anti-faith" stance. I see this as Neil's way of getting across his perspective on life, without faith and that he isn't a malignant narcissistic freedom extremist. I agree with your view on his character in the story who is learning to strike a balance between the two sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakly Criminal Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 QUOTE (cygnify @ Jun 12 2012, 02:46 PM) Just my initial interpretation- The Anarchist is an evildoer that holds the grudge against the world for what he lacks and sets up the protagonist at the Carnival (with some sort of detonator) (see "Carnies") The Anarchist is the first; the Wreckers are the second confrontation with this type of evil when take advantage of other's misery, kill the others, and nearly kill the protagonist. Along with the Pedlar, his illusions of love (Halo effect) and his search for the Seven Cities of Gold, that lead the protagonist to his current mental state - not harboring ill-will (Wish Them Well) and to measure his life by love and respect (The Garden) I'd like to hear other's interpretations I would add only this: The Anarchist is what the protagonist might have become if he had allowed himself to become bitter and hateful over his losses (and gains). Thus the connection with the tossing of the time bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shail Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 It's Bob Hope! Duh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Rebel Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 QUOTE (Weakly Criminal @ Jun 14 2012, 06:32 PM) QUOTE (cygnify @ Jun 12 2012, 02:46 PM) Just my initial interpretation- The Anarchist is an evildoer that holds the grudge against the world for what he lacks and sets up the protagonist at the Carnival (with some sort of detonator) (see "Carnies") The Anarchist is the first; the Wreckers are the second confrontation with this type of evil when take advantage of other's misery, kill the others, and nearly kill the protagonist. Along with the Pedlar, his illusions of love (Halo effect) and his search for the Seven Cities of Gold, that lead the protagonist to his current mental state - not harboring ill-will (Wish Them Well) and to measure his life by love and respect (The Garden) I'd like to hear other's interpretations I would add only this: The Anarchist is what the protagonist might have become if he had allowed himself to become bitter and hateful over his losses (and gains). Thus the connection with the tossing of the time bomb. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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