Question about the US flag

[Fridge]

Just heard that my Niece, who is currently over on a Camp America activities holiday, had her 21st birthday...as a result, the organisers asked her to raise the flag for that day...being unused to doing this, she pulled a little vigorously and the flag flew off the top.

 

She was completely nonplussed at the expressions of horror and dismay that followed, with people saying the flag was contaminated and couldn't be used again.

 

Surely this is a wind up, right?, I mean, I find the prospect that a simple object which is meant to symbolise freedom and liberty could itself be subject to so many rules....if this had happened in a UK equivalent camp, no one would have made a fuss, and it would simply have been hoisted again amid much laughter and ribbing the person involved...in fact there probably wouldn't even be a flag at a UK gathering.

 

So I'm interested to find out if this sounds like a wind up, or if it's plausible, and if so, for Gods sake, why?

[The Analog Grownup]

I say that if a flag touching the ground can get you bend completely out of shape, you probably have bigger issues you need to tend to first. I understand it's a symbol that means a lot to many people, but in this case where I think it should be obvious that there was no intentional malpractice, those horrified should be able to calm down again. Why the flag couldn't be used again I don't understand.

 

Where I come from we hardly ever flag anymore which I find saddening.

Edited July 3, 2017 by The Analog Grownup

[Ancient Ways]

The flag should not touch the ground at any time out of respect but it doesn't get contaminated by touching the ground. Not sure where they got that idea. The only time the flag is not suitable for flying is when it starts to fray or fall apart.

[Mithrandir]

"Murica" dammit!!

 

That piece of cloth is more important than any and everything!!

[Principled Man]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

[Fridge]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

Appreciate the reply, which was quite informative....

 

Why do you think this mindset is particular to the USA?....are there other countries who feel the same way about their particular emblems?

[blueschica]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

:goodone:

 

Yeah, Fridge, the camp sounds a little extreme. I'm not sure what they would have done with the third graders at my kids' primary school. It was a big deal to be in third grade there because you got to take a turn one week to raise and lower the big US flag outside the school. Vietnam vets came at the beginning of the year to show all the kids how to do it properly, and that was really cool. (I used to come take yearbook photos.).

 

Regardless, the kids usually got it wrong. Flag at half mast. Flag clipped on upside down. Rope not tight and flag slid back to the ground by noon. (it was pretty funny if you weren't a flag etiquette person!) But no one really cared; someone would just stop and fix it, because the kids listened REALLY HARD to those Vietnam vets and they really got how important it was to honor the flag. The kids went out every morning, even at like -10F, and tried their hardest. They were so proud to be doing the flag raising. Everyone thought that was kind of more important than where the flag actually ended up.

Edited July 3, 2017 by blueschica

[JARG]

[Tick]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

Appreciate the reply, which was quite informative....

Why do you think this mindset is particular to the USA?....are there other countries who feel the same way about their particular emblems?

I think there is a feeling of superiority in the U.S. you likely won't find anywhere else. The U.S, the protectors of the world, the melting pot of people who came here from elsewhere to have a life that couldn't have in many places.

Am I patriotic? Yes, and I do think people should show respect at sporting events by removing caps and remaining silent during the anthem and be respectful as a courtesy to others. It's not asking much.

 

Sadly though the U.S. is now the divided states of America. People draw lines in the sand and won't cross them no matter what. It's rare you find someone who thinks and judges things independently. Instead they will follow one ideology to a fault with no room flexibility on any issues. It's actually quite scary that the side someone supports will be defended whether they do wrong or not. There is always a way to justify the wrong doing of the party you support because the other side is worse.

The media is one sided and compartmentalized so you only get one the side. The side they want to present, and the other side is always wrong. MSNBC would NEVER in a million years support anything Trump could ever do no matter what much as Fox news would NEVER give president Obama credit for anything he did in 8 years in office.

 

Sorry, I went off track a bit....

 

There are no absolutes but in the general the right loses there minds over this issue while the left is more apt to say, hey is not the end of the world its only a flag.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Tick

[JARG]

Just heard that my Niece, who is currently over on a Camp America activities holiday, had her 21st birthday...as a result, the organisers asked her to raise the flag for that day...being unused to doing this, she pulled a little vigorously and the flag flew off the top.

 

She was completely nonplussed at the expressions of horror and dismay that followed, with people saying the flag was contaminated and couldn't be used again.

 

Surely this is a wind up, right?, I mean, I find the prospect that a simple object which is meant to symbolise freedom and liberty could itself be subject to so many rules....if this had happened in a UK equivalent camp, no one would have made a fuss, and it would simply have been hoisted again amid much laughter and ribbing the person involved...in fact there probably wouldn't even be a flag at a UK gathering.

 

So I'm interested to find out if this sounds like a wind up, or if it's plausible, and if so, for Gods sake, why?

 

More fetishization than you can shake a flag pole at:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

[Maverick]

I've heard many different things about how one should treat the American flag. Most of it came in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's.

 

I know that the flag:

 

1) Should never touch the ground. What happens if it does is up for debate. Some people want to burn it if it does, but they are most often the people who object to it being burned as a form of political protest. One aside note, flag burning seems to have really gotten out of vogue, for the time being.

 

2) If the flag becomes frayed, it needs to be replaced.

 

3) The flag should always be lit. So if you fly the flag and don't take it down at night, you should have a light illuminating it.

 

Personally, I would give your niece, or any other person, a break for what happened. It was accidental. No need to get your jimmies in a bunch.

[Mithrandir]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

Appreciate the reply, which was quite informative....

Why do you think this mindset is particular to the USA?....are there other countries who feel the same way about their particular emblems?

I think there is a feeling of superiority in the U.S. you likely won't find anywhere else. The U.S, the protectors of the world, the melting pot of people who came here from elsewhere to have a life that couldn't have in many places.

Am I patriotic? Yes, and I do think people should show respect at sporting events by removing caps and remaining silent during the anthem and be respectful as a courtesy to others. It's not asking much.

 

Sadly though the U.S. is now the divided states of America. People draw lines in the sand and won't cross them no matter what. It's rare you find someone who thinks and judges things independently. Instead they will follow one ideology to a fault with no room flexibility on any issues. It's actually quite scary that the side someone supports will be defended whether they do wrong or not. There is always a way to justify the wrong doing of the party you support because the other side is worse.

The media is one sided and compartmentalized so you only get one the side. The side they want to present, and the other side is always wrong. MSNBC would NEVER in a million years support anything Trump could ever do no matter what much as Fox news would NEVER give president Obama credit for anything he did in 8 years in office.

 

Sorry, I went off track a bit....

 

There are no absolutes but in the general the right loses there minds over this issue while the left is more apt to say, hey is not the end of the world its only a flag.

I know plenty of people who think and judge independently. I'm one.

[Principled Man]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

Appreciate the reply, which was quite informative....

 

Why do you think this mindset is particular to the USA?....are there other countries who feel the same way about their particular emblems?

 

Just my opinion, but I think that over the last 250 years, a "secular religion" has evolved in the USA. Breaking from the Old World doctrine of declaring Divine Right or Mandate From Heaven, our nation and its government were founded on a secular constitution and secular branches of government. As a consequence, there was nothing that the People could point to and say, "This is what we hold Sacred." There was nothing to officially worship as an entire Nation.....except for ourselves and our new way of life.

 

The U.S. Flag has become, for many, a quasi-religious symbol. As the Cross is a symbol for Christendom, so are the Stars & Stripes a symbol for the USA. It is why desecrating the Flag is such a major taboo. The definition of the word desecrate is "to make unsacred". Hence the superstitious behavior of people at ball parks and flag raisings & lowerings.

[blueschica]

We fly a US flag outdoors through much of the summer, but we are not good with the "Light at night" thing, on purpose. My husband does it kind of in remembrance of his dad. When we first got it, I told my husband, "I think we are supposed to put a light on it at night." ( I wanted a new spotlight.) I fell right into his trap!

 

Mr. blues told me he learned the light thing in Cub scouts when teeny, and went home and told his dad to light their flag. Dad in law blues said, "Son, I was in the supply corps in WWII (chasing Rommel in Africa!), and when we showed up at a post with supplies, we were just glad to see the flag still flying. Didn't matter if it was light, dark, wet, dry or muddy. So don't tell me how to fly a flag." My husband has taken that to heart and just flies the flag, 24/7 in July. ( I take it down in bad weather because it's sad looking. :( )

 

ETA: I guess this makes my father-in-law sound a little gruff! Actually, you never met a more gentle, awesome guy. He didn't like to talk about himself, so I didn't hear this and other stories about his service until after he passed, which is a shame.

Edited July 4, 2017 by blueschica

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Unfortunately, a lot of people are nuts about the US flag. Everything about it and about handling it must be exactly right or else that happens. They're likely not pulling her leg, sorry to say.

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

Nationalism is the disease that directly caused both World Wars and all that resulted from them.

 

I love America, but I am not blindly patriotic.

[JohnnyBlaze]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

 

I love America, but I am not blindly patriotic.

 

I hear you.

 

Related...

I've met and known a lot of expats abroad that DO think most of (if not ALL) Americans ARE blindly patriotic though. A Welsh co-worker of mine I used to work with once condescendingly commented, "Why do you guys always carry around the American flag and wear t-shirts that say 'Love it or leave it' with your flag on it?" Our Canadian co-worker agreed with her.

 

I've never known anyone to "carry around" an American flag. And the only time I've seen someone wear a t-shirt that the Welsh chick was talking about was on some pro-wrestling tv show.

 

The irony is that the Welsh and Canadian co-workers of mine had flags of their respective nations on their daily used backpacks and regularly worn clothing. Nobody ever commented on that (and nobody should) but IF I did those same things with the American flag, I surely would've received criticism. Hell, I received criticism even when I've NEVER done it.

Edited July 3, 2017 by JohnnyBlaze

[Principled Man]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

 

I love America, but I am not blindly patriotic.

 

I hear you.

 

Related...

I've met and known a lot of expats abroad that DO think most of (if not ALL) Americans ARE blindly patriotic though. A Welsh co-worker of mine I used to work with once condescendingly commented, "Why do you guys always carry around the American flag and wear t-shirts that say 'Love it or leave it' with your flag on it?" Our Canadian co-worker agreed with her.

 

I've never known anyone to "carry around" an American flag. And the only time I've seen someone wear a t-shirt that the Welsh chick was talking about was on some pro-wrestling tv show.

 

The irony is that the Welsh and Canadian co-workers of mine had flags of their respective nations on their daily used backpacks and regularly worn clothing. Nobody ever commented on that (and nobody should) but IF I did those same things with the American flag, I surely would've received criticism. Hell, I received criticism even when I've NEVER done it.

 

Don'cha just love stereotypes? They always go both ways! :laughing guy: Hearing how people around the world see us Americans is fascinating to no end!

[JohnnyBlaze]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

 

I love America, but I am not blindly patriotic.

 

I hear you.

 

Related...

I've met and known a lot of expats abroad that DO think most of (if not ALL) Americans ARE blindly patriotic though. A Welsh co-worker of mine I used to work with once condescendingly commented, "Why do you guys always carry around the American flag and wear t-shirts that say 'Love it or leave it' with your flag on it?" Our Canadian co-worker agreed with her.

 

I've never known anyone to "carry around" an American flag. And the only time I've seen someone wear a t-shirt that the Welsh chick was talking about was on some pro-wrestling tv show.

 

The irony is that the Welsh and Canadian co-workers of mine had flags of their respective nations on their daily used backpacks and regularly worn clothing. Nobody ever commented on that (and nobody should) but IF I did those same things with the American flag, I surely would've received criticism. Hell, I received criticism even when I've NEVER done it.

 

Don'cha just love stereotypes? They always go both ways! :laughing guy: Hearing how people around the world see us Americans is fascinating to no end!

 

Oh man yeah.

Given my geography, I probably hear the American stereotypes more than most.

According to many here, I eat steak every day and own a shotgun arsenal. Truth: I rarely eat steak and I've only fired a gun once - on vacation...in Vietnam. True story though

[Lucas]

Like Colin Kaepernick, Denver Bronco LBer Brandon Marshall took a knee during The National Anthem last season

 

And because he exercised his right to free expression, he received a fan letter

 

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2904946.1481309099!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/marshall10s-1-web.jpg

 

 

[Ancient Ways]

This thread has veered far off course.

[The Analog Grownup]

Here in the USA, we are experiencing (suffering from) the formation of secular superstitions when it comes to patriotism. The two main superstitions are:

 

1) "Disrepecting" or "desecrating" the U.S. flag.

2) Sports fans being pressured to stand at attention and take off their hats when the Star Spangled Banner is played.

 

While not everyone takes these things so seriously, there are quite a few citizens who do. Desecrating the U.S. flag has been a longstanding point of contention. Title 18 of the U.S. Code actually calls for imprisonment of those who willfully desecrate a U.S. flag, but that penalty (up to a year in prison) is not enforced. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag to express one's political beliefs is protected speech under the 1st Amendment.

 

Peer pressure to "respect" the flag and show your patriotism in public is one of our nation's flaws. One of the first steps in creating a fascist state is to legally require the People to be patriotic in public. There are many U.S. citizens today who would support such requirements.

 

 

I love America, but I am not blindly patriotic.

 

I hear you.

 

Related...

I've met and known a lot of expats abroad that DO think most of (if not ALL) Americans ARE blindly patriotic though. A Welsh co-worker of mine I used to work with once condescendingly commented, "Why do you guys always carry around the American flag and wear t-shirts that say 'Love it or leave it' with your flag on it?" Our Canadian co-worker agreed with her.

 

I've never known anyone to "carry around" an American flag. And the only time I've seen someone wear a t-shirt that the Welsh chick was talking about was on some pro-wrestling tv show.

 

The irony is that the Welsh and Canadian co-workers of mine had flags of their respective nations on their daily used backpacks and regularly worn clothing. Nobody ever commented on that (and nobody should) but IF I did those same things with the American flag, I surely would've received criticism. Hell, I received criticism even when I've NEVER done it.

 

So you're saying that the generic image of the american we've been spoonfed abroad isn't true?!

[The Analog Grownup]

Like Colin Kaepernick, Denver Bronco LBer Brandon Marshall took a knee during The National Anthem last season

 

And because he exercised his right to free expression, he received a fan letter

 

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2904946.1481309099!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/marshall10s-1-web.jpg

 

Sorry to all southerners but I couldn't help reading this in the voice of a redneck.

[The Analog Grownup]

This thread has veered far off course.

 

Maybe I can try and navigate it back?

 

How important is the flag generally in the US? My assumption is that most everybody will lose their mind over it, if someone either tries to burn it, stomp it or just speak badly about. But is that really the case? I know it's the picture a lot of people in Europe likely has, but here we're in the progress of equating flags with fascism, so there's that.

[OldRUSHfan]

I'm an Eagle Scout. Even thought as far as I can remember, if the flag fell on the ground no one was Killed because of it. General honor of the flag was learned and such, but we didn't kill people for not learning it. But then, if you felt that way, that the flag didn't deserve honor, Boy Scouts was probably not your cup of tea. http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j223/OldRUSHfan/Characters/boy%20scouttny.gif

:banana: