Neil's drumming...what gives?

[Captain Avatar]

Back in 1996 I listened to the Test for Echo world premier and heard Neil talk about his drum lessons with Freddie Gruber. He said, "I feel as though I knew nothing before." Not long after that, I read a guitar magazine in which Alex "marveled" at Neil's new capabilities and said, "He's taken his drumming to a whole new level!"

 

Given that info, I couldn't wait to listen to Test for Echo, expecting drum parts that blew away anything Neil had ever done before. I listened to it for the first time and was completely underwhelmed, thinking that it contained some of his simplest sounding stuff (ex. Half the World, Color of Right).

 

Since then he's taken many more lessons (with Peter Erskine), he's talked about "breaking the time barrier," and he's talked about sections in songs that were so incredibly difficult that he didn't even dare try them at first (the "soloing" at the end of Far Cry). Each time he says these kinds of things, I head into each respective album expecting complexity and awesomeness the likes of which we've never heard before from him.

 

I am not a drummer, but it seems to me that he played much more complex and difficult passages on Hemispheres or Permanent Waves. Ironically, to my ears pretty much every album before Freddie Gruber contains much more complex drumming than every album after Gruber.

 

What gives? If Neil really is so much better than he used to be, as he claims, then why does he marvel at being able to play things that are relatively simple compared to things he played in 1978?

 

Can any drummers fill me in on this? Is the new stuff really that much more complex, and my non-drumming ears just can't appreciate the complexity? Are the post-Gruber albums really much tougher to play? Obviously Neil is the best judge of his abilities, so I believe what he's saying. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[EagleMoon]

I've often wondered about this. It seems like he played much more complex parts back when he knew less. Though he mentioned lately that he used to map out his parts much more than he does now, so maybe that's the difference? I think their music used to be more complex than it is now.

[hammerofthor]

Yeah, his comments basically ruined S&A for me before I even heard it. Hearing it didn't help much either...lol. He even mentioned about having to write down parts of Headlong Flight because of the complexity. Really?

[bluefox4000]

Yea neil's drumming from T4E on is much less exciting. And it REALLY Sticks out if you marathon the entire discography, IMO.

 

Mick

[EagleMoon]

Yea neil's drumming from T4E on is much less exciting. And it REALLY Sticks out if you marathon the entire discography, IMO.

 

Mick

 

I don't know if maybe he's focusing on the small things rather than the whole song? He got a lot more into the electronic side of things at that point, so maybe that's part of it? It's like he doesn't really experiment much anymore. I would love to see the acoustic stuff make a comeback, like the bells and the chimes..etc...but I doubt that'll ever happen.

[bluefox4000]

I think he's older........he had those lessons which fit him in a tiny tiny box musically......which sadly he's aged into. Just my take.

 

Mick

[EagleMoon]

I think he's older........he had those lessons which fit him in a tiny tiny box musically......which sadly he's aged into. Just my take.

 

Mick

 

Yeah that's true. Things that were fun and exciting at one point can become old and jaded. Just like people.

[antiquark]

Try a youtube search for something like "headlong flight drum cover." Usually the drummers have something to say about the difficulty level. For example:

 

...Although there are no real crushingly difficult individual parts in this song, taken as a whole it is extraordinarily difficult to play on the drums. Neil Peart is such a master, and learning his unusual accents, how he puts a song together, the incredible dynamics, and the tough time signatures and changes throughout the song...whew! I have been missing playing Rush, and this song really satisfied that urge.

 

...This is a VERY demanding song, very fast, never repeating itself and it's full of drumming "tricks". You can tell that Neil was having a blast on that one, with new stuff he has been using in songs on the Time Machine tour and some improvised parts as well. There are several things that I'm still not sure about...

 

...This song is up there with one of the most difficult songs I've covered so far. In typical Neil Peart fashion, the transitions are played differently at each pass, so it's a challenge to remember where you are in the song. Throw in some odd time signature changes and a crazy single stroke roll solo, and, well, he just makes it difficult for all of us!

 

...A cover of Rush's Headlong Flight, The best I could do before my arms and legs fell off!! By no means perfect, a little sloppy in places, almost lost it a few times, but what a great track, one of the most difficult ones I've covered, great fun though!!

[Narps]

Yeah, his comments basically ruined S&A for me before I even heard it. Hearing it didn't help much either...lol.

....

[Captain Avatar]

I think he's older........he had those lessons which fit him in a tiny tiny box musically......which sadly he's aged into. Just my take.

 

Mick

 

Yeah, but when he came back from his initial tutelage under Gruber, he wasn't that old. He was in his forties and hadn't suffered the tragedies yet. He talked as though everything he learned from Gruber made him a much better drummer than before, and his bandmates seemed to echo that sentiment. Where, on Test for Echo, is this demonstrated? Is there anything on that album that showcases this so-called incredible leap in technique? Again, to my ears it all seems, with the exception of perhaps Test for Echo itself, much more basic than most everything previous. Hell, even Limbo seems lame considering instrumentals are where they usually showcase their "chops."

[Union 5-3992]

Clockwork Angels & The Anarchist's drums sound pretty good to me

[YYZumbi]

I must say, even thou I don't understand the big greatness with Clockwork Angels, when everybody is saying that it is Rush best album ever, I must say that the drums on it is similar, at least to me, to the sound that Neil had on this drums during the 70s. I like that.

[RUSHHEAD666]

Back in 1996 I listened to the Test for Echo world premier and heard Neil talk about his drum lessons with Freddie Gruber. He said, "I feel as though I knew nothing before." Not long after that, I read a guitar magazine in which Alex "marveled" at Neil's new capabilities and said, "He's taken his drumming to a whole new level!"

 

Given that info, I couldn't wait to listen to Test for Echo, expecting drum parts that blew away anything Neil had ever done before. I listened to it for the first time and was completely underwhelmed, thinking that it contained some of his simplest sounding stuff (ex. Half the World, Color of Right).

 

Since then he's taken many more lessons (with Peter Erskine), he's talked about "breaking the time barrier," and he's talked about sections in songs that were so incredibly difficult that he didn't even dare try them at first (the "soloing" at the end of Far Cry). Each time he says these kinds of things, I head into each respective album expecting complexity and awesomeness the likes of which we've never heard before from him.

 

I am not a drummer, but it seems to me that he played much more complex and difficult passages on Hemispheres or Permanent Waves. Ironically, to my ears pretty much every album before Freddie Gruber contains much more complex drumming than every album after Gruber.

 

What gives? If Neil really is so much better than he used to be, as he claims, then why does he marvel at being able to play things that are relatively simple compared to things he played in 1978?

 

Can any drummers fill me in on this? Is the new stuff really that much more complex, and my non-drumming ears just can't appreciate the complexity? Are the post-Gruber albums really much tougher to play? Obviously Neil is the best judge of his abilities, so I believe what he's saying. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

As a fanatic Neil Peart drumming whore I must say that everything up to "Counterparts" is fun to play.

 

I'm willing to bet that if it wasn't for his embarrassing attempt at trying to swing during "Cottontail" at the Buddy Rich Memorial Concert he never would have changed his drumming style.

Nothing beats the "old" Neil style of drumming. The grip it and rip technique. Now he trie to be all jazzy and do that traditional grip shit.

No offense to all of the great drummers in the world who play that way but when it comes to Neil he should has stuck to what he knew best.

Sadly his ego was damaged on that Buddy Rich Memorial Stage.

He had to change. He wanted to swing. He wanted to do that circular motion shit and try and apply it to Rush music.

 

Obviously he hasn't failed at his new drumming approach but it is different and it doesn't go smoothly with Geddy and Alex. JMO

 

His fills lack creativity.

Personally I hated when he went to one kick drum with a double bass pedal but that was before Freddie helped ruin his true feel for the drums.

 

Why do you think he added that jazz drumming at the end of his solo?

A homage to the great jazz greats but sadly Neil simply can't swing.

 

The proof is in the progressive pudding.

[hammerofthor]

What he got from Freddie was more of a feel thing, not necessarily a blazing show of techniques, but him trying to groove more. Its more of a subtle thing, easier to feel than hear.

[hammerofthor]

But yeah, Neil really can't swing. If you have to force it and try so hard, you don't have it.

[ThatLightInYourEyes]

But yeah, Neil really can't swing. If you have to force it and try so hard, you don't have it.

 

Well, if you look up "trying too hard" in a lexicon, you'll probably find Neil's picture. So that's not going to change.

[cygnify]

Yeah, I think you are missing the point of Neil's drum lessons. I am a disciple of Neil's drumming career and a semi-pro drummer myself; If I were to try to summarize Neil's intent of lessons with Gruber and Erksine it wasn't at all to play more complex or technical things. It was all about feel, groove, pocket, etc. Neil has spoken about it ad nauseum in drum-related interviews and in his instructional DVDs from "A Work in Progress" all the way up to "Taking Center Stage". He felt his timing was feeling too metronomic and stiff. Gruber got him into the fluidity of motion and circular time. I do think this was all spurred by his involvement with the Buddy Rich projects (of which, even Neil himself was embarrassed about the first live show.)

 

In my own 3+ decades of drumming, I've come to recognize two extremes in spectrum of drummers - those that have an innate sense of "feel" that can play a groove (even a very simple groove) and just make it feel perfectly placed in the song (a la Jeff Pocaro, John Bonham, Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta, etc.) and then there are those that have a more mathematical view that have developed insane chops, but not necessarily to the point of "grooving" with the song (Mike Portnoy comes to mind as an extreme example.) Of course, there are dudes that span the entire spectrum (Billy Cobham, Dennis Chambers, and Vinnie), and all drummers are a balance somewhere on that spectrum - but I think Neil definitely started on the mathematical side (indeed, he inspired many down that path, myself included) and his intent in "re-programming" himself was to slide closer to the "Feel" side. Personally, I think he succeeded in shifting himself (though there are multitudes others that can make a groove feel as good or better.) So, you were looking for fireworks - but what Neil was actually after is something much more subtle and, in fact, what most non-drummers may even interpret as "boring" because it is less complex and mathematical, is actually exactly what Neil had set out to do!

 

Anyway, just my $0.02. Hope it makes some sense. :)

Edited November 26, 2014 by cygnify

[Powderfinger]

I think the mistake being made here is equating "technique" with "difficulty." Gruber's influence on Peart has more to do with feel and groove than with crafting even more complicated drum parts. This reminds me of when a couple years ago I mentioned on this board that Charlie Watts is one of the all-time great rock drummers, and a few posters ridiculed that suggestion. Yet, I maintain, you won't find many drummers who can play like Charlie. It's similar to AC/DC: most folks assume that stuff is so easy to play, but put anyone else in Phil Rudd's spot and it just doesn't quite sound right.

 

In addition to that, as strange as it sounds, Neil's incredibly complex parts on Hemispheres, AFTK, Permanent Waves, etc. were his comfort zone. Pushing Neil to think and drum in a more relaxed manner, and to not always pursue the path of most resistance, to no uncertain degree compromised Neil's comfort zone. Simply put, I seem to recall Neil stating in an interview that Freddie taught him how to groove.

 

Now, I'm not wanting to suggest that I personally like the outcome. I too prefer his drumming on the earlier records, and find his more recent output much less exciting. But I don't think that necessarily even begins with Test for Echo or Vapor Trails. I think Roll the Bones, for example, is fairly dull when compared to his parts for Hemispheres. He has slowly been reining it in since P/G, I would argue.

 

Just my assessment/two cents. Only trying to help advance the discussion. Good topic.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Powderfinger

[Powderfinger]

Yeah, I think you are missing the point of Neil's drum lessons. I am a disciple of Neil's drumming career and a semi-pro drummer myself; If I were to try to summarize Neil's intent of lessons with Gruber and Erksine it wasn't at all to play more complex or technical things. It was all about feel, groove, pocket, etc. Neil has spoken about it ad nauseum in drum-related interviews and in his instructional DVDs from "A Work in Progress" all the way up to "Taking Center Stage". He felt his timing was feeling too metronomic and stiff. Gruber got him into the fluidity of motion and circular time. I do think this was all spurred by his involvement with the Buddy Rich projects (of which, even Neil himself was embarrassed about the first live show.)

 

In my own 3+ decades of drumming, I've come to recognize two extremes in spectrum of drummers - those that have an innate sense of "feel" that can play a groove (even a very simple groove) and just make it feel perfectly placed in the song (a la Jeff Pocaro, John Bonham, Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta, etc.) and then there are those that have a more mathematical view that have developed insane chops, but not necessarily to the point of "grooving" with the song (Mike Portnoy comes to mind as an extreme example.) Of course, there are dudes that span the entire spectrum (Billy Cobham, Dennis Chambers, and Vinnie), and all drummers are a balance somewhere on that spectrum - but I think Neil definitely started on the mathematical side (indeed, he inspired many down that path, myself included) and his intent in "re-programming" himself was to slide closer to the "Feel" side. Personally, I think he succeeded in shifting himself (though there are multitudes others that can make a groove feel as good or better.) So, you were looking for fireworks - but what Neil was actually after is something much more subtle and, in fact, what most non-drummers may even interpret as "boring" because it is less complex and mathematical, is actually exactly what Neil had set out to do!

 

Anyway, just my $0.02. Hope it makes some sense. :)

 

I wrote my post before reading yours. Funny how similar they are, right down to the two cents statement. I agree with your evaluation.

[KennyLee]

I honestly feel a similar way about Geddy. His bass playing has gotten better and better even over the last 5-6 years. Incredible how a man his age can continue to improve.

 

However, I do not care for his style of play now. He's still aggressive but that flamenco, flicky style and his runs are not as melodic as they once were. What drew me to his playing was how melodic he played while still being aggressive and "nasty" at times.

 

All that said, he has gotten better.

 

I think the same goes for Neil. You may not like what he's playing but his technique and subtleties have improved.

[BigBob]

Yeah, I think you are missing the point of Neil's drum lessons. I am a disciple of Neil's drumming career and a semi-pro drummer myself; If I were to try to summarize Neil's intent of lessons with Gruber and Erksine it wasn't at all to play more complex or technical things. It was all about feel, groove, pocket, etc. Neil has spoken about it ad nauseum in drum-related interviews and in his instructional DVDs from "A Work in Progress" all the way up to "Taking Center Stage". He felt his timing was feeling too metronomic and stiff. Gruber got him into the fluidity of motion and circular time. I do think this was all spurred by his involvement with the Buddy Rich projects (of which, even Neil himself was embarrassed about the first live show.)

 

In my own 3+ decades of drumming, I've come to recognize two extremes in spectrum of drummers - those that have an innate sense of "feel" that can play a groove (even a very simple groove) and just make it feel perfectly placed in the song (a la Jeff Pocaro, John Bonham, Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta, etc.) and then there are those that have a more mathematical view that have developed insane chops, but not necessarily to the point of "grooving" with the song (Mike Portnoy comes to mind as an extreme example.) Of course, there are dudes that span the entire spectrum (Billy Cobham, Dennis Chambers, and Vinnie), and all drummers are a balance somewhere on that spectrum - but I think Neil definitely started on the mathematical side (indeed, he inspired many down that path, myself included) and his intent in "re-programming" himself was to slide closer to the "Feel" side. Personally, I think he succeeded in shifting himself (though there are multitudes others that can make a groove feel as good or better.) So, you were looking for fireworks - but what Neil was actually after is something much more subtle and, in fact, what most non-drummers may even interpret as "boring" because it is less complex and mathematical, is actually exactly what Neil had set out to do!

 

Anyway, just my $0.02. Hope it makes some sense. :)

Well said. I don't know much about drumming or music complexity, but I know what I like! And, I like Neil's drumming.

I like to think that the purpose of Neil changing his technique up was to challenge himself. Maybe, playing the drums his old was burning him out. I always have this saying "If you do the same thing everyday, then you'll get the same thing everyday". I remember in the "Beyond the lighted stage" someone mentioned how awesome it was to know that greatest drummer of all time, can still find ways to motivate and improve himself!

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I really could care less if Neil's new styles and techniques have increased the complexity of his drumming. If the result of his learnings are that he has more fun while playing, more motivation to keep playing, and more stamina while he's playing, then that makes me (a RUSH fan) happy, cause you know that will lend itself to more new material...hopefully!

[Captain Avatar]

Thanks for all the knowledgable replies! It makes sense, then, that when Neil says he knew "nothing" before, etc., he was indicating, not that he could play much more complex parts now, but that he had added another dimension (jazz/swing) to his arsenal.

 

I guess the only thing that still baffles me a bit is why he thinks some of these newer songs present such technical difficulty, such as the solo at the end of Far Cry or Headlong Flight. Perhaps it's because, in light of what some of you have said, he's doing things in those songs that are not what he would naturally play, which is what makes it difficult for him.

[Captain Avatar]

Yeah, I think you are missing the point of Neil's drum lessons. I am a disciple of Neil's drumming career and a semi-pro drummer myself; If I were to try to summarize Neil's intent of lessons with Gruber and Erksine it wasn't at all to play more complex or technical things. It was all about feel, groove, pocket, etc. Neil has spoken about it ad nauseum in drum-related interviews and in his instructional DVDs from "A Work in Progress" all the way up to "Taking Center Stage". He felt his timing was feeling too metronomic and stiff. Gruber got him into the fluidity of motion and circular time. I do think this was all spurred by his involvement with the Buddy Rich projects (of which, even Neil himself was embarrassed about the first live show.)

 

In my own 3+ decades of drumming, I've come to recognize two extremes in spectrum of drummers - those that have an innate sense of "feel" that can play a groove (even a very simple groove) and just make it feel perfectly placed in the song (a la Jeff Pocaro, John Bonham, Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta, etc.) and then there are those that have a more mathematical view that have developed insane chops, but not necessarily to the point of "grooving" with the song (Mike Portnoy comes to mind as an extreme example.) Of course, there are dudes that span the entire spectrum (Billy Cobham, Dennis Chambers, and Vinnie), and all drummers are a balance somewhere on that spectrum - but I think Neil definitely started on the mathematical side (indeed, he inspired many down that path, myself included) and his intent in "re-programming" himself was to slide closer to the "Feel" side. Personally, I think he succeeded in shifting himself (though there are multitudes others that can make a groove feel as good or better.) So, you were looking for fireworks - but what Neil was actually after is something much more subtle and, in fact, what most non-drummers may even interpret as "boring" because it is less complex and mathematical, is actually exactly what Neil had set out to do!

 

Anyway, just my $0.02. Hope it makes some sense. :)

Well said. I don't know much about drumming or music complexity, but I know what I like! And, I like Neil's drumming.

I like to think that the purpose of Neil changing his technique up was to challenge himself. Maybe, playing the drums his old was burning him out. I always have this saying "If you do the same thing everyday, then you'll get the same thing everyday". I remember in the "Beyond the lighted stage" someone mentioned how awesome it was to know that greatest drummer of all time, can still find ways to motivate and improve himself!

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I really could care less if Neil's new styles and techniques have increased the complexity of his drumming. If the result of his learnings are that he has more fun while playing, more motivation to keep playing, and more stamina while he's playing, then that makes me (a RUSH fan) happy, cause you know that will lend itself to more new material...hopefully!

 

I agree to a certain extent. Obviously, it's Neil's life we're talking about here. If he was tired of his playing style and wanted to challenge himself, and if the changes he's incorporated have made him happier, then good for him. I mean that sincerely. On the other hand, I, as the listener and fan, just don't find his new approach as exciting or interesting as his older style, and in my opinion, Rush's music has suffered some because of the changes he's made to his drumming style.

[hammerofthor]

Contrary to popular belief, I don't think Neil is "natural" drummer. Things don't come easily for him, and everything he has achieved has been through hard work. He's pretty much admitted this. His comments regarding the "The drum also waltzes" 3/4 foot thing are pretty telling.

[toymaker]

I honestly feel a similar way about Geddy. His bass playing has gotten better and better even over the last 5-6 years. Incredible how a man his age can continue to improve.

 

However, I do not care for his style of play now. He's still aggressive but that flamenco, flicky style and his runs are not as melodic as they once were. What drew me to his playing was how melodic he played while still being aggressive and "nasty" at times.

 

All that said, he has gotten better.

 

I think the same goes for Neil. You may not like what he's playing but his technique and subtleties have improved.

 

I think Lee's busy runs (okay . . . let me rephrase that: Lee's busy bass runs) in Headlong Flight seem like his old style of playing. I'll have to watch the video again to see if he's doing that with is his, as you call it, "flicky style" (which I think should be adopted as the official term for that technique).