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#1901 goose

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 08:04 PM

View Postliquidcrystalcompass, on 13 February 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

View PostRick N. Backer, on 13 February 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 13 February 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

View PostRick N. Backer, on 12 February 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 12 February 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

Lots of talk today around Belichik having a "fear-based" approach to his team.  Thoughts?

Fear is ultimately not a healthy way to motivate people.
In education we refer to what we call having a "level of concern".  Simply put (so a even a guy like you can understand? [hee hee] ), people perform better when they care  (enough, but not too much). A healthy level of concern can be fostered in many ways, including with fear (a negative leadership style) or with praise (a positive leadership style) or combinations of the two.  A neutral climate/culture tends to be ineffective.  

The downside of using fear and discipline to motivate people is that, while it can produce results, in the long run it fosters resentment.

I don't think "fear" of losing your job is necessarily using "fear" as a leadership style, if that makes sense.  If you're not producing you're going to lose your job.  If you care, you "fear" that happening.  But I think of "fear" as a leadership style more in the sense of threatening and intimidating people.
I suppose I'm viewing "fear" as a leadership style differently than you and goose.  Tom Landry was feared but he wasn't a threatening person.  I feared my Dad but I loved him and never carried resentment.  There are many ways a leader can make his men fear him.
It's fear in a sense of an expectation personal responsibility and accountability, like Rick pointed out, I think.  You can achieve this without yelling or threatening.  Landry or John Wooden are great examples.

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#1902 lerxt1990

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 11:18 PM

View Postgoose, on 13 February 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

View PostRick N. Backer, on 12 February 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 12 February 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

Lots of talk today around Belichik having a "fear-based" approach to his team.  Thoughts?

Fear is ultimately not a healthy way to motivate people.
In education we refer to what we call having a "level of concern".  Simply put (so a even a guy like you can understand? [hee hee] ), people perform better when they care  (enough, but not too much). A healthy level of concern can be fostered in many ways, including with fear (a negative leadership style) or with praise (a positive leadership style) or combinations of the two.  A neutral climate/culture tends to be ineffective.  

The downside of using fear and discipline to motivate people is that, while it can produce results, in the long run it fosters resentment.

"The beatings will continue until morale improves." ™

#1903 goose

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:05 AM

View PostFordgalaxy, on 13 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

I can relate this to dog training (the style of which seems to be verboten raising kids). Using negative reinforcement ...
re: "negative reinforcement", a Psychology pro tip for the interested...

Punishment, administering an unwanted stimulus following an unwanted behavior (e,g, beating a dog) is sometimes mislabeled  as negative reinforcement.  While punishment follows a behavior, negative reinforcement is a training device that introduces an unwanted stimulus that is removed once the desired behavior is demonstrated.  Think of your car's seat belt warning indicator.  That annoying endless chime is designed you to put on your seatbelt.  Once you do, it stops.  Eventually you learn to just put on your seatbelt and avoid the chime altogether.

So now you know why kids whine and throw fits.  They're training you.

Posted Image

Edited by goose, 14 February 2018 - 10:06 AM.


#1904 Fordgalaxy

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 12:48 PM

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 13 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

I can relate this to dog training (the style of which seems to be verboten raising kids). Using negative reinforcement ...
re: "negative reinforcement", a Psychology pro tip for the interested...

Punishment, administering an unwanted stimulus following an unwanted behavior (e,g, beating a dog) is sometimes mislabeled  as negative reinforcement.  While punishment follows a behavior, negative reinforcement is a training device that introduces an unwanted stimulus that is removed once the desired behavior is demonstrated.  Think of your car's seat belt warning indicator.  That annoying endless chime is designed you to put on your seatbelt.  Once you do, it stops.  Eventually you learn to just put on your seatbelt and avoid the chime altogether.

So now you know why kids whine and throw fits.  They're training you.

Posted Image
I get that, but many dog trainers don't like to use the word "punishment" when they are training. That's reserved for when the animal does something wrong outside of training time, like piss on the floor. But your definition is accurate.

#1905 goose

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 07:57 PM

View PostFordgalaxy, on 14 February 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 13 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

I can relate this to dog training (the style of which seems to be verboten raising kids). Using negative reinforcement ...
re: "negative reinforcement", a Psychology pro tip for the interested...

Punishment, administering an unwanted stimulus following an unwanted behavior (e,g, beating a dog) is sometimes mislabeled  as negative reinforcement.  While punishment follows a behavior, negative reinforcement is a training device that introduces an unwanted stimulus that is removed once the desired behavior is demonstrated.  Think of your car's seat belt warning indicator.  That annoying endless chime is designed you to put on your seatbelt.  Once you do, it stops.  Eventually you learn to just put on your seatbelt and avoid the chime altogether.

So now you know why kids whine and throw fits.  They're training you.

Posted Image
I get that, but many dog trainers don't like to use the word "punishment" when they are training. That's reserved for when the animal does something wrong outside of training time, like piss on the floor. But your definition is accurate.
How about "aversive" training.  That's the term that's used these days.  

undesired behavior > aversive stimulus > behavior stops


You have to use aversives sparingly, because the subject will get used to it.  But they can be very effective and even necessary.

#1906 liquidcrystalcompass

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:02 PM

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 14 February 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 13 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

I can relate this to dog training (the style of which seems to be verboten raising kids). Using negative reinforcement ...
re: "negative reinforcement", a Psychology pro tip for the interested...

Punishment, administering an unwanted stimulus following an unwanted behavior (e,g, beating a dog) is sometimes mislabeled  as negative reinforcement.  While punishment follows a behavior, negative reinforcement is a training device that introduces an unwanted stimulus that is removed once the desired behavior is demonstrated.  Think of your car's seat belt warning indicator.  That annoying endless chime is designed you to put on your seatbelt.  Once you do, it stops.  Eventually you learn to just put on your seatbelt and avoid the chime altogether.

So now you know why kids whine and throw fits.  They're training you.

Posted Image
I get that, but many dog trainers don't like to use the word "punishment" when they are training. That's reserved for when the animal does something wrong outside of training time, like piss on the floor. But your definition is accurate.
How about "aversive" training.  That's the term that's used these days.  

undesired behavior > aversive stimulus > behavior stops


You have to use aversives sparingly, because the subject will get used to it.  But they can be very effective and even necessary.
I suppose I'm old school.  I give ass whippings.  They don't seem to mind too much.

#1907 Fordgalaxy

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:57 PM

View Postliquidcrystalcompass, on 14 February 2018 - 08:02 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 14 February 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 13 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

I can relate this to dog training (the style of which seems to be verboten raising kids). Using negative reinforcement ...
re: "negative reinforcement", a Psychology pro tip for the interested...

Punishment, administering an unwanted stimulus following an unwanted behavior (e,g, beating a dog) is sometimes mislabeled  as negative reinforcement.  While punishment follows a behavior, negative reinforcement is a training device that introduces an unwanted stimulus that is removed once the desired behavior is demonstrated.  Think of your car's seat belt warning indicator.  That annoying endless chime is designed you to put on your seatbelt.  Once you do, it stops.  Eventually you learn to just put on your seatbelt and avoid the chime altogether.

So now you know why kids whine and throw fits.  They're training you.

Posted Image
I get that, but many dog trainers don't like to use the word "punishment" when they are training. That's reserved for when the animal does something wrong outside of training time, like piss on the floor. But your definition is accurate.
How about "aversive" training.  That's the term that's used these days.  

undesired behavior > aversive stimulus > behavior stops


You have to use aversives sparingly, because the subject will get used to it.  But they can be very effective and even necessary.
I suppose I'm old school.  I give ass whippings.  They don't seem to mind too much.
Sad.

#1908 goose

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:01 AM

View PostFordgalaxy, on 14 February 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

View Postliquidcrystalcompass, on 14 February 2018 - 08:02 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 14 February 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 13 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

I can relate this to dog training (the style of which seems to be verboten raising kids). Using negative reinforcement ...
re: "negative reinforcement", a Psychology pro tip for the interested...

Punishment, administering an unwanted stimulus following an unwanted behavior (e,g, beating a dog) is sometimes mislabeled  as negative reinforcement.  While punishment follows a behavior, negative reinforcement is a training device that introduces an unwanted stimulus that is removed once the desired behavior is demonstrated.  Think of your car's seat belt warning indicator.  That annoying endless chime is designed you to put on your seatbelt.  Once you do, it stops.  Eventually you learn to just put on your seatbelt and avoid the chime altogether.

So now you know why kids whine and throw fits.  They're training you.

Posted Image
I get that, but many dog trainers don't like to use the word "punishment" when they are training. That's reserved for when the animal does something wrong outside of training time, like piss on the floor. But your definition is accurate.
How about "aversive" training.  That's the term that's used these days.  

undesired behavior > aversive stimulus > behavior stops


You have to use aversives sparingly, because the subject will get used to it.  But they can be very effective and even necessary.
I suppose I'm old school.  I give ass whippings.  They don't seem to mind too much.
Sad.
Posted Image

#1909 liquidcrystalcompass

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 02:29 PM

View PostFordgalaxy, on 14 February 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

View Postliquidcrystalcompass, on 14 February 2018 - 08:02 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 14 February 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 13 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

I can relate this to dog training (the style of which seems to be verboten raising kids). Using negative reinforcement ...
re: "negative reinforcement", a Psychology pro tip for the interested...

Punishment, administering an unwanted stimulus following an unwanted behavior (e,g, beating a dog) is sometimes mislabeled  as negative reinforcement.  While punishment follows a behavior, negative reinforcement is a training device that introduces an unwanted stimulus that is removed once the desired behavior is demonstrated.  Think of your car's seat belt warning indicator.  That annoying endless chime is designed you to put on your seatbelt.  Once you do, it stops.  Eventually you learn to just put on your seatbelt and avoid the chime altogether.

So now you know why kids whine and throw fits.  They're training you.

Posted Image
I get that, but many dog trainers don't like to use the word "punishment" when they are training. That's reserved for when the animal does something wrong outside of training time, like piss on the floor. But your definition is accurate.
How about "aversive" training.  That's the term that's used these days.  

undesired behavior > aversive stimulus > behavior stops


You have to use aversives sparingly, because the subject will get used to it.  But they can be very effective and even necessary.
I suppose I'm old school.  I give ass whippings.  They don't seem to mind too much.
Sad.
Worldly.

#1910 Rick N. Backer

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:54 AM

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 14 February 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 13 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

I can relate this to dog training (the style of which seems to be verboten raising kids). Using negative reinforcement ...
re: "negative reinforcement", a Psychology pro tip for the interested...

Punishment, administering an unwanted stimulus following an unwanted behavior (e,g, beating a dog) is sometimes mislabeled  as negative reinforcement.  While punishment follows a behavior, negative reinforcement is a training device that introduces an unwanted stimulus that is removed once the desired behavior is demonstrated.  Think of your car's seat belt warning indicator.  That annoying endless chime is designed you to put on your seatbelt.  Once you do, it stops.  Eventually you learn to just put on your seatbelt and avoid the chime altogether.

So now you know why kids whine and throw fits.  They're training you.

Posted Image
I get that, but many dog trainers don't like to use the word "punishment" when they are training. That's reserved for when the animal does something wrong outside of training time, like piss on the floor. But your definition is accurate.
How about "aversive" training.  That's the term that's used these days.  

undesired behavior > aversive stimulus > behavior stops


You have to use aversives sparingly, because the subject will get used to it.  But they can be very effective and even necessary.

Never start with the head.  The victim gets all fuzzy.  He can't feel the next . . . See?

#1911 goose

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:10 AM

View PostRick N. Backer, on 19 February 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 14 February 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

View Postgoose, on 14 February 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View PostFordgalaxy, on 13 February 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

I can relate this to dog training (the style of which seems to be verboten raising kids). Using negative reinforcement ...
re: "negative reinforcement", a Psychology pro tip for the interested...

Punishment, administering an unwanted stimulus following an unwanted behavior (e,g, beating a dog) is sometimes mislabeled  as negative reinforcement.  While punishment follows a behavior, negative reinforcement is a training device that introduces an unwanted stimulus that is removed once the desired behavior is demonstrated.  Think of your car's seat belt warning indicator.  That annoying endless chime is designed you to put on your seatbelt.  Once you do, it stops.  Eventually you learn to just put on your seatbelt and avoid the chime altogether.

So now you know why kids whine and throw fits.  They're training you.

Posted Image
I get that, but many dog trainers don't like to use the word "punishment" when they are training. That's reserved for when the animal does something wrong outside of training time, like piss on the floor. But your definition is accurate.
How about "aversive" training.  That's the term that's used these days.  

undesired behavior > aversive stimulus > behavior stops


You have to use aversives sparingly, because the subject will get used to it.  But they can be very effective and even necessary.

Never start with the head.  The victim gets all fuzzy.  He can't feel the next . . . See?
:lol:

I was thinking more along the lines of shock collars on dogs.

#1912 RUSHHEAD666

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 02:30 AM

Why is this loser thread back on top of the first page.

Jimmy Page has more awards than Tom Brady.  FRAUD!

Even losers have it made.

Life isn't fair but it's great to be alive.

Can't wait for the Raiders to knock off the Patriots next year in the playoffs.  Or is it called the "payoffs."  Ask Bellicheat and Kraft Mac And Cheese.

#1913 Verena

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 06:09 PM

View PostRUSHHEAD666, on 22 February 2018 - 02:30 AM, said:

Why is this loser thread back on top of the first page.

Jimmy Page has more awards than Tom Brady.  FRAUD!

Even losers have it made.

Life isn't fair but it's great to be alive.

Can't wait for the Raiders to knock off the Patriots next year in the playoffs.  Or is it called the "payoffs."  Ask Bellicheat and Kraft Mac And Cheese.


:lol:   :lol:   :lol:

#1914 lerxt1990

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 10:34 PM

View PostRUSHHEAD666, on 22 February 2018 - 02:30 AM, said:

Why is this loser thread back on top of the first page.

Jimmy Page has more awards than Tom Brady.  FRAUD!

Even losers have it made.

Life isn't fair but it's great to be alive.

Can't wait for the Raiders to knock off the Patriots next year in the playoffs.  Or is it called the "payoffs."  Ask Bellicheat and Kraft Mac And Cheese.

Effing HILARIOUS as always!! lol




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