Mushfan Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 15 2012, 04:21 PM) QUOTE (Mushfan @ Jun 15 2012, 02:12 PM) On a side note, did anybody notice the issue with Neil's snare on the first chorus of Clockwork angels? It's missing, all you hear is the room mics and then it finally comes back. i definitely hear it during the slow bluesy section but I'm certain it is intentional. Yes, I think that part was intentional. They were trying to get the blues club sound I believe. I'm going to check the title track again to make sure I'm correct. I believe it's the beginning of the first chorus where the snare kinda drops out. Anyway, I LOVE this album, even with the mix issues. We all know it could have been worse (VT). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGr8imL84AD8inF8sBlackSedan Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 (edited) If I have one complain about this album it's the compression. The first time I listened was through a good set of headphones and it sounded great. Through my good computer sound card and external speakers it sounds good but not great. Through my truck stereo, sadly it doesn't sound that great, flat and lifeless. But today, several times, I listened through the tiny speaker of my Android phone and found I could hear the separation of the music so much more clearly...I kinda liked it....Back to the headphones. I too wish they could have, or might have recorded like they did back in the old days. That was one of the best parts of old . Listening for nuances in the each of the individual parts of the music. Now I find it's so hard to separate everything. Edited June 15, 2012 by OGr8imL84AD8inF8sBlackSedan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak2112 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:44 PM) As someone who earns a living as an audio person I can say that part of it is the way things are recorded, part of it is mixing less than stellar recordings and finally part is mastering for iPods. I have recently been a part of an audio engineering forum that has turned me around many degrees where recording is concerned. I have been working in the digital domain since the 90's and with music especially (sound effects are my main trade) I have struggled to come close digitally to even poorly recorded analog recordings I have done on cassette 4 track. The main culprit is the digital medium itself. We've had discussions like this in the MMM section (where I moderate for some of you who don't recognize me). Digital recording is inherently flawed because of how it works, especially when all of humanity is used to hearing analog recordings. This is a fundamental recording issue but it effects things that are frequency dependent like EQ and modulation effects (phase, flange, chorus etc; oh and drums and cymbals and guitars...) because not all frequencies are "created equal" due to fixed sample rates. Higher frequencies lose out the lower the sample rate while lower frequencies are always represented much more closely t their analog equivalent. So when you play back something that wasn't recorded as well as we are used to hearing, then mixing it with other "inferior" recorded material, then smashing it to be as loud as possible there is little wonder why we don't like what we're hearing. There will always be a new technological "advances" that will take us to the next tier. Neil Young is working on a new digital format that will allegedly deal with some of this, but I will believe when I hear it. Interesting perspective but Power Windows was a full digital album (DDD) from start to finish and the album sounds fantastic, especially the Japanese 32.8P version. Steve Hoffman is remastering tons of albums from the 70's and 80's and his stuff sounds smooth, silky and full of dynamic range. I assume he uses digital equipment during most if not all phases of his work, correct? What about Donald Fagens, the Nightfly? Thats another very early full digital recording that is just flat out fantastic. In fact, I'd go as far to say it may be the finest sounding album ever released and that was way back in 1982. Something is wrong in the culture in which you work IMO. You're dead on when you use the phrase "mastering for ipods". What I find really sad is the number of folks on here that listen to the 97 Rush remasters and say they're better than the orignals. They're certainly louder...but not better. Sadly to many, louder = better. Keep fighting the good fight Sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkingBig Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 02:25 AM) What gives? It can't be technology can it? Are they making albums just to sound good for Ipods? Do some of them even sound good in an Ipod?? What's he story? What gives? Do they make more money from advertising construction? Are you talking about any album in particular? because this is the Clockwork Angels forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonE Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Perhaps it's me, but IMO, the vocals seem buried a bit in this album. Geddy just doesn't sound as up-front as he has on previous efforts, and that's a shame because this seems to be one of his stronger performances as of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGr8imL84AD8inF8sBlackSedan Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 QUOTE (CrimsonE @ Jun 15 2012, 08:02 PM) Perhaps it's me, but IMO, the vocals seem buried a bit in this album. Geddy just doesn't sound as up-front as he has on previous efforts, and that's a shame because this seems to be one of his stronger performances as of late. I agree...I was listening to it in my truck yesterday and both the guy with me, and I really couldn't understand anything he was singing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ytserush Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 QUOTE (ak2112 @ Jun 15 2012, 06:19 PM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:44 PM) As someone who earns a living as an audio person I can say that part of it is the way things are recorded, part of it is mixing less than stellar recordings and finally part is mastering for iPods. I have recently been a part of an audio engineering forum that has turned me around many degrees where recording is concerned. I have been working in the digital domain since the 90's and with music especially (sound effects are my main trade) I have struggled to come close digitally to even poorly recorded analog recordings I have done on cassette 4 track. The main culprit is the digital medium itself. We've had discussions like this in the MMM section (where I moderate for some of you who don't recognize me). Digital recording is inherently flawed because of how it works, especially when all of humanity is used to hearing analog recordings. This is a fundamental recording issue but it effects things that are frequency dependent like EQ and modulation effects (phase, flange, chorus etc; oh and drums and cymbals and guitars...) because not all frequencies are "created equal" due to fixed sample rates. Higher frequencies lose out the lower the sample rate while lower frequencies are always represented much more closely t their analog equivalent. So when you play back something that wasn't recorded as well as we are used to hearing, then mixing it with other "inferior" recorded material, then smashing it to be as loud as possible there is little wonder why we don't like what we're hearing. There will always be a new technological "advances" that will take us to the next tier. Neil Young is working on a new digital format that will allegedly deal with some of this, but I will believe when I hear it. Interesting perspective but Power Windows was a full digital album (DDD) from start to finish and the album sounds fantastic, especially the Japanese 32.8P version. Steve Hoffman is remastering tons of albums from the 70's and 80's and his stuff sounds smooth, silky and full of dynamic range. I assume he uses digital equipment during most if not all phases of his work, correct? What about Donald Fagens, the Nightfly? Thats another very early full digital recording that is just flat out fantastic. In fact, I'd go as far to say it may be the finest sounding album ever released and that was way back in 1982. Something is wrong in the culture in which you work IMO. You're dead on when you use the phrase "mastering for ipods". What I find really sad is the number of folks on here that listen to the 97 Rush remasters and say they're better than the orignals. They're certainly louder...but not better. Sadly to many, louder = better. Keep fighting the good fight Sir! Louder is most certainly not always better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkingBig Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangster of Goats Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 05:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... With a good ol' Urei 1176 is a good start. A classic compressor that has been in use for decades in studios (used one myself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony R Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 11:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... What a dickish post especially when you are completely wrong you jackass. Compressors were used in vinyl mastering. Go and bray like a donkey elsewhere and let the adults speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushman14 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 03:58 AM)QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... http://yourfaceisstupid.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/YOUR-A-TOOL.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeduck Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 QUOTE (Tony R @ Jul 10 2012, 05:55 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 11:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... What a dickish post especially when you are completely wrong you jackass. Compressors were used in vinyl mastering. Go and bray like a donkey elsewhere and let the adults speak. That's it fight fight FIGHT for my entertainment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony R Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 10 2012, 11:59 PM) QUOTE (Tony R @ Jul 10 2012, 05:55 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 11:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... What a dickish post especially when you are completely wrong you jackass. Compressors were used in vinyl mastering. Go and bray like a donkey elsewhere and let the adults speak. That's it fight fight FIGHT for my entertainment... You'll get brickwalled and compressed if you carry on, you long-haired layabout! In my day we fought a war, put paid to a few like you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeduck Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 QUOTE (Tony R @ Jul 10 2012, 06:03 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 10 2012, 11:59 PM) QUOTE (Tony R @ Jul 10 2012, 05:55 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 11:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... What a dickish post especially when you are completely wrong you jackass. Compressors were used in vinyl mastering. Go and bray like a donkey elsewhere and let the adults speak. That's it fight fight FIGHT for my entertainment... You'll get brickwalled and compressed if you carry on, you long-haired layabout! In my day we fought a war, put paid to a few like you... What back in the 1750s...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Enemy Without Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 05:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... What kind of credentials do you bring to the table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkingBig Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 QUOTE (Tony R @ Jul 10 2012, 05:55 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 11:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... What a dickish post especially when you are completely wrong you jackass. Compressors were used in vinyl mastering. Go and bray like a donkey elsewhere and let the adults speak. But of course they are, dear. http://10.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kq3riggeuQ1qa368xo1_500.gif When you compress an analog signal you just remove the zeros... or was it the ones. Again, you experts are too much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkingBig Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 QUOTE (An Enemy Without @ Jul 10 2012, 07:16 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 05:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... What kind of credentials do you bring to the table? I compress audio and video for a living. Analog is a signal. An analog compressor or limiter is an effect. You are altering the signal not making it smaller in size. Totally different than digital compression. Digital is 0s and 1s. You compress a digital file by making it smaller. I could explain how this is done, but then I'd have to kill you. Apple was very cute by naming their great compression program, Compressor. It is great! What these so-called experts are implying is that a CD /DVD holds information in the same manner as a vinyl record album. I know we call it "burning" a disc, but it's not what you think. In fact, commercial discs are not "burned" at all. They are essentially a picture of the master disc stamped onto a disc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Pilgrim Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 07:37 PM) QUOTE (An Enemy Without @ Jul 10 2012, 07:16 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 10 2012, 05:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 15 2012, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (Snaked @ Jun 14 2012, 11:11 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 01:47 PM) I think the reason for the loudness war might be due to the invention of the ipod. Everyone is trying to make sure their song volumes arent lacking compared to others. The loudness wars started long before the invent of the iPod. Indeed it did. This has been going on for decades. Listen to some records. Actual vinyl records and you can hear all kinds of compression there as well. It just isn;t as grating as digital compression. Um, mr. audio expert... Please explain how you 'compress' an analog signal. You 'experts' crack me up... What kind of credentials do you bring to the table? I compress audio and video for a living. Analog is a signal. An analog compressor or limiter is an effect. You are altering the signal not making it smaller in size. Totally different than digital compression. Digital is 0s and 1s. You compress a digital file by making it smaller. I could explain how this is done, but then I'd have to kill you. Apple was very cute by naming their great compression program, Compressor. It is great! What these so-called experts are implying is that a CD /DVD holds information in the same manner as a vinyl record album. I know we call it "burning" a disc, but it's not what you think. In fact, commercial discs are not "burned" at all. They are essentially a picture of the master disc stamped onto a disc. Well there's compression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war and then there's compression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_(file_format) Totally different things dude. But then you should know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Ways Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 It would be interesting to hear a classic older album that is generally considered to sound good remixed/mastered to sound brickwalled to give everyone a solid comparison and get the pros to wake up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnoble Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Ancient Ways @ Jul 11 2012, 09:46 PM) It would be interesting to hear a classic older album that is generally considered to sound good remixed/mastered to sound brickwalled to give everyone a solid comparison and get the pros to wake up. I'm imagining two of the best produced rock albums in history, Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and GnR's Appetite For Destruction and how completly shitty they'd sound with the modern brickwalled/compressed to hell sound. It'd be like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa before setting it on fire. Edited July 14, 2012 by jnoble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanadoood Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (jnoble @ Jul 14 2012, 06:22 PM) QUOTE (Ancient Ways @ Jul 11 2012, 09:46 PM) It would be interesting to hear a classic older album that is generally considered to sound good remixed/mastered to sound brickwalled to give everyone a solid comparison and get the pros to wake up. I'm imagining two of the best produced rock albums in history, Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and GnR's Appetite For Destruction and how completly shitty they'd sound with the modern brickwalled/compressed to hell sound. It'd be like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa before setting it on fire. Appetite for Destruction? Are you serious? How bout Dark Side of the Moon and Aja by Steely Dan? Appetite for Destruction? Edited July 14, 2012 by Xanadoood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnoble Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Xanadoood @ Jul 14 2012, 06:26 PM) QUOTE (jnoble @ Jul 14 2012, 06:22 PM) QUOTE (Ancient Ways @ Jul 11 2012, 09:46 PM) It would be interesting to hear a classic older album that is generally considered to sound good remixed/mastered to sound brickwalled to give everyone a solid comparison and get the pros to wake up. I'm imagining two of the best produced rock albums in history, Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and GnR's Appetite For Destruction and how completly shitty they'd sound with the modern brickwalled/compressed to hell sound. It'd be like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa before setting it on fire. Appetite for Destruction? Are you serious? Absolutley. Say what you want about Guns N Roses, but that album which was produced by a guy named Mike Clink, sounds fantastic. The mix, the space between the instruments, the levels, the sound he got from dicking around with Slash's amp and telling him to not touch a thing and go ahead and record all his parts (Slash said he never quite got his guitar to sound like that ever again in studio) AFD from a production point of view is a knock-out, especially considering how short of money the band was at the time. I'm pretty sure Slash played a borrowed Les Paul to record that album because he couldn't afford to buy one of his own yet Edited July 14, 2012 by jnoble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Appetite's production is pretty awesome. That album holds together cranked up. It has power and it's clean. To me it's very similar to Power Windows in that way. These days, not sure what's going on but it's not just Rush. Metallica's recent album is bricked to all hell. I guess it's just the desire to push it as far as they can to have a heavy sound, but the bottom line is it just ends up sounding muddy. With CA at least I dont hear a lot of that annoying clipping that VT had, but its still really lacking dynamics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnoble Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 14 2012, 06:42 PM) Appetite's production is pretty awesome. That album holds together cranked up. It has power and it's clean. To me it's very similar to Power Windows in that way. These days, not sure what's going on but it's not just Rush. Metallica's recent album is bricked to all hell. I guess it's just the desire to push it as far as they can to have a heavy sound, but the bottom line is it just ends up sounding muddy. With CA at least I dont hear a lot of that annoying clipping that VT had, but its still really lacking dynamics. That's exactly it. Modern recording/production of rock albums is just not good anymore. For example I recently bought The Black Keys 'El Camino' album and it's easily the most compressed album I've ever heard. The songs are pretty good, but holy hell, every one of them is SQUEEZED all to hell. The guitars and vocals and drum tracks are all smashed together on top of each other with no sound separation whatsoever. It's a shame because outside of that, it's pretty good music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwoods89 Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I don't have my copy of Clockwork Angels yet, it's still in the mail, but is it brickwalled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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