Why are so many albums, compressed, brick walled

[treeduck]

What gives? It can't be technology can it? Are they making albums just to sound good for Ipods? Do some of them even sound good in an Ipod??

 

What's he story? What gives? Do they make more money from advertising construction?

 

[Alchemical]

Sheer laziness.

[Earthshine]

Don't know. But I can't help but wonder what this music would sound like with the production as on Power Windows: big, full, balanced and not so compressed. I would much rather prefer a bigger drum sound. Maybe Neil needs to get rid of those DW's and go back to Ludwig, which are the best sounding drums he ever had. The red Tamas sounded great too. But the white Ludwigs were the best.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Alchemical @ Jun 14 2012, 02:27 AM)

Sheer laziness.

Is it mostly the recording or the mixing, or the mastering? Or do all these processes contribute noise to the final product?

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Earthshine @ Jun 14 2012, 02:29 AM)

Don't know. But I can't help but wonder what this music would sound like with the production as on Power Windows: big, full, balanced and not so compressed. I would much rather prefer a bigger drum sound. Maybe Neil needs to get rid of those DW's and go back to Ludwig, which are the best sounding drums he ever had. The red Tamas sounded great too. But the white Ludwigs were the best.

I doubt it's the instruments, but I do agree the drum sound is a bit limp. They sound contained, distantly artificial. I really like the drum sound on Test For Echo as far as recent albums go.

[CrossedSignals]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 12:25 AM)

What gives? It can't be technology can it? Are they making albums just to sound good for Ipods? Do some of them even sound good in an Ipod??

There are 3 factors that play into this, as far as I can tell. One of them is indeed technology.

 

1) Prevalence of shitty speaker setups. Many albums nowadays are engineered to sound good on cheap, tinny laptop speakers, iPod earbuds, and other shitty speaker setups, because that's how most people do their casual listening. A loud, compressed track sounds better (and is actually audible) on cheap, tinny speakers.

 

2) Loudness wars. Fortunately, the loudness wars are winding down, as we've pretty much reached maximum loudness ("brickwalling" is about as loud as you can get).

 

3) Dominance of electronic music. Most electronic music sounds a hell of lot better with a healthy dose of compression and maximization (when applied correctly), and electronic music is the rising mainstream genre right now. Rock music is not. I bet a lot of rock producers feel they need to apply these same mixing/mastering techniques in order to keep up and be noticed, which is a damn shame, because it usually doesn't sound very good. Rock and electronica are different musical worlds, and should be treated as such.

[H. P. L.]

Uncultured listening.

That's all I can think of.

Just as people are not able to discern what's good to eat and what not anymore, they can't discern what sounds good.

Not their fault: nobody taught them. For everyone TRFer with a huge collection of Yes albums, there are thousands of average Joes who moved from the walkman to the I-pod. I used to listen to the walkman. Sounded sh*t. But I had a better stereo at home.

I would say it's the record companies that have come up with this brickwall strategy, over the years, and now it's the rule.

 

Seems strange that a band like Rush would not have their say in this, anyway. I think many other great bands do not have a VT in their closet.

[malnar]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 02:30 AM)

QUOTE (Alchemical @ Jun 14 2012, 02:27 AM) Sheer laziness. Is it mostly the recording or the mixing, or the mastering? Or do all these processes contribute noise to the final product? The mastering is more often than not the culprit.   Record labels want their songs to be the ones that draw the most attention on radio, on compilations, etc. So, their thinking is that their recordings have to be louder than any of the competition.

Edited June 14, 2012 by malnar

[Tony R]

Apart from obvious audiophile concerns, my biggest problem with "brickwalling' is that it's done deliberately to attract non-fans. What I mean is that if a song from, say, Clockwork Angels is played on the radio, as an edit on Amazon or itunes, or even in a record store, it "needs" to stand out, or at least be sonically similar too, all the other tunes demanding the casual listener's attention. A fan will automatically tune in, so it is not done for him. Albums, in general, are sent out like Ford's Model T, any colour you want as long as it is black.

 

 

 

 

edit: malnar beat me to it.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Tony R

[RUSHHEAD666]

QUOTE (Alchemical @ Jun 14 2012, 12:27 AM)

Sheer laziness.

I totally agree!!! It's sheer bullshit!!

 

When I buy an album I want clarity and consistency.

 

It doesn't have to pop like "Play Deep" by The Outfield but damn I can't stand the mud mixed into the last three Rush records!

 

Why???

 

I hate "Test For Echo" but at least the production is clean and clear.

 

I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too!!

 

Shit, even "Hemispheres" sounds cleaner and brighter than "Cockwork."

 

What am I to do?

 

Sit around naked when the wife is asleep and crank the first Boston album?

 

What a clean gem!

 

I absolutely hate compression Pat! It throws my mind into a downward spiral depression!!

 

Shit man if the cd version of "CA" sounds so compressed who the fukk would want to listen to the album on a download or MP3?

 

Makes no sense to me!! Then again you can put human shit in vanilla ice cream and the vanilla ice cream will taste like shit. If you try to remove the human shit from the vanilla ice cream it will still taste like shit.

 

I love keeping the cd market alive. I will never ever conform into the chloroform of life!

 

I will always "deviate from the norm!" Fuckk the norm.

 

Signed,

 

"VITAL SIGNS"

[treeduck]

QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:11 AM)

QUOTE (Alchemical @ Jun 14 2012, 12:27 AM) Sheer laziness. I totally agree!!! It's sheer bullshit!!   When I buy an album I want clarity and consistency.   It doesn't have to pop like "Play Deep" by The Outfield but damn I can't stand the mud mixed into the last three Rush records!   Why???   I hate "Test For Echo" but at least the production is clean and clear.   I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too!!   Shit, even "Hemispheres" sounds cleaner and brighter than "Cockwork."   What am I to do?   Sit around naked when the wife is asleep and crank the first Boston album?   What a clean gem!   I absolutely hate compression Pat! It throws my mind into a downward spiral depression!!   Shit man if the cd version of "CA" sounds so compressed who the fukk would want to listen to the album on a download or MP3?   Makes no sense to me!! Then again you can put human shit in vanilla ice cream and the vanilla ice cream will taste like shit. If you try to remove the human shit from the vanilla ice cream it will still taste like shit.   I love keeping the cd market alive. I will never ever conform into the chloroform of life!   I will always "deviate from the norm!" Fuckk the norm.   Signed,   "VITAL SIGNS" It annoys me because I always think my speakers are blown...

[RUSHHEAD666]

QUOTE (malnar @ Jun 14 2012, 12:55 AM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 02:30 AM) QUOTE (Alchemical @ Jun 14 2012, 02:27 AM) Sheer laziness. Is it mostly the recording or the mixing, or the mastering? Or do all these processes contribute noise to the final product? The mastering is more often than not the culprit.   Record labels want their songs to be the ones that draw the most attention on radio, on compilations, etc. So, their thinking is that their recordings have to be louder than any of the competition. I sure as hell am not an expert but I've put my money where my big mouth is.   I've spent a ton of money over the decades to try and find the best audio sound on a compact disc.   Shit man, you guys would love my Cd Library. Libraries are dead and soon so will audio fidelity.   You young kids will just listen to your shit iPods and docking stations. What will happen when your shit crashes and you have nothing?   Don't come to my house. As I will never get rid of my aluminum and gold discs of true love!!!   You may laugh at me for wasting money on the hard real shit but at the end of the day I will laugh last!!   The USA may very well give up on the audio cd format but I will bet your young ass bottom dollar that Japan and the UK will NEVER stop pressing these cds!!!   Go ahead children and download "Permanent Waves." Nothing will touch my cd MFSL version in the lp mini sleeve.   Audio Fidelity is going to release Jane's Addiction's "Nothing's Shocking" cd on gold. I can't wait!!!   Many of you old curmudgeons will laugh at that reissue! I simply can't wait to hear it's sonic brilliance!!   I have no idea why "Vapor Trails," "Snakes & Arrows," and "Clockwork Angels" sound like shit production wise.   Again, maybe it's the way Geddy, Alex and Neil wanted the last three records to sound?   Not really sure. Is anyone on this forum really sure about the current Rush sound?   I think the music on the last three records is EPIC and stunning.   Sadly I think the production consists of fresh warm dog shit melting under a sexy smoldering summer sun.   "It is what it is........"

[RUSHHEAD666]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 01:14 AM)

QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:11 AM) QUOTE (Alchemical @ Jun 14 2012, 12:27 AM) Sheer laziness. I totally agree!!! It's sheer bullshit!!   When I buy an album I want clarity and consistency.   It doesn't have to pop like "Play Deep" by The Outfield but damn I can't stand the mud mixed into the last three Rush records!   Why???   I hate "Test For Echo" but at least the production is clean and clear.   I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too!!   Shit, even "Hemispheres" sounds cleaner and brighter than "Cockwork."   What am I to do?   Sit around naked when the wife is asleep and crank the first Boston album?   What a clean gem!   I absolutely hate compression Pat! It throws my mind into a downward spiral depression!!   Shit man if the cd version of "CA" sounds so compressed who the fukk would want to listen to the album on a download or MP3?   Makes no sense to me!! Then again you can put human shit in vanilla ice cream and the vanilla ice cream will taste like shit. If you try to remove the human shit from the vanilla ice cream it will still taste like shit.   I love keeping the cd market alive. I will never ever conform into the chloroform of life!   I will always "deviate from the norm!" Fuckk the norm.   Signed,   "VITAL SIGNS" It annoys me because I always think my speakers are blown...   Dude and friend! You are preaching to the choir!   I listened to "Clockwork Bad Audio Angles" three times in my ML 350 today.   I had to turn the fukking volume down because I was on the verge of getting a headache.   Even "My Favorite Headache" sounds better! LOL!   Anyway I thought my speakers were going to blow up!   The awkward bass. The trash can drumming. The pulsating low end chaos.   I mean my ears can pick out the brilliance of the writing and songs but the production makes me want to stick an ice pick into my f***ing eardrums.   Was "Clockwork Angels" recorded in mono??????   Is that Ringo Starr on the drums?   "Time Stand Still" forever.   I need a drink.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:30 AM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 01:14 AM) QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:11 AM) QUOTE (Alchemical @ Jun 14 2012, 12:27 AM) Sheer laziness. I totally agree!!! It's sheer bullshit!!   When I buy an album I want clarity and consistency.   It doesn't have to pop like "Play Deep" by The Outfield but damn I can't stand the mud mixed into the last three Rush records!   Why???   I hate "Test For Echo" but at least the production is clean and clear.   I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too!!   Shit, even "Hemispheres" sounds cleaner and brighter than "Cockwork."   What am I to do?   Sit around naked when the wife is asleep and crank the first Boston album?   What a clean gem!   I absolutely hate compression Pat! It throws my mind into a downward spiral depression!!   Shit man if the cd version of "CA" sounds so compressed who the fukk would want to listen to the album on a download or MP3?   Makes no sense to me!! Then again you can put human shit in vanilla ice cream and the vanilla ice cream will taste like shit. If you try to remove the human shit from the vanilla ice cream it will still taste like shit.   I love keeping the cd market alive. I will never ever conform into the chloroform of life!   I will always "deviate from the norm!" Fuckk the norm.   Signed,   "VITAL SIGNS" It annoys me because I always think my speakers are blown...   Dude and friend! You are preaching to the choir!   I listened to "Clockwork Bad Audio Angles" three times in my ML 350 today.   I had to turn the fukking volume down because I was on the verge of getting a headache.   Even "My Favorite Headache" sounds better! LOL!   Anyway I thought my speakers were going to blow up!   The awkward bass. The trash can drumming. The pulsating low end chaos.   I mean my ears can pick out the brilliance of the writing and songs but the production makes me want to stick an ice pick into my f***ing eardrums.   Was "Clockwork Angels" recorded in mono??????   Is that Ringo Starr on the drums?   "Time Stand Still" forever.   I need a drink. They'd have been better using the production values of My Favourite Headache, that one sounds fine. A good album too...

[Mandalorian Hunter]

So glad I recently bought some expensive ish headphones. Sounds great on the cans!

[tas7]

I hated when our sound engineer used Pro Tools on our recordings as it compressed the life out of the sound especially during the mastering phase. The dynamic range was sacrificed for volume and it made a rock band sound like Maroon 5. I have had a go remixing using Nuendo 3 and have managed to create a much better dynamic range.

Hard to gauge Clockwork Angels as I haven't got the CD yet but have noticed the difference between the first and second choruses of The Garden at 256 kbps streaming.The second is heavily compressed to me as bass and drums were added.

Edited June 14, 2012 by tas7

[RUSHHEAD666]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 01:36 AM)

QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:30 AM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 01:14 AM) QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:11 AM) QUOTE (Alchemical @ Jun 14 2012, 12:27 AM) Sheer laziness. I totally agree!!! It's sheer bullshit!!   When I buy an album I want clarity and consistency.   It doesn't have to pop like "Play Deep" by The Outfield but damn I can't stand the mud mixed into the last three Rush records!   Why???   I hate "Test For Echo" but at least the production is clean and clear.   I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too!!   Shit, even "Hemispheres" sounds cleaner and brighter than "Cockwork."   What am I to do?   Sit around naked when the wife is asleep and crank the first Boston album?   What a clean gem!   I absolutely hate compression Pat! It throws my mind into a downward spiral depression!!   Shit man if the cd version of "CA" sounds so compressed who the fukk would want to listen to the album on a download or MP3?   Makes no sense to me!! Then again you can put human shit in vanilla ice cream and the vanilla ice cream will taste like shit. If you try to remove the human shit from the vanilla ice cream it will still taste like shit.   I love keeping the cd market alive. I will never ever conform into the chloroform of life!   I will always "deviate from the norm!" Fuckk the norm.   Signed,   "VITAL SIGNS" It annoys me because I always think my speakers are blown...   Dude and friend! You are preaching to the choir!   I listened to "Clockwork Bad Audio Angles" three times in my ML 350 today.   I had to turn the fukking volume down because I was on the verge of getting a headache.   Even "My Favorite Headache" sounds better! LOL!   Anyway I thought my speakers were going to blow up!   The awkward bass. The trash can drumming. The pulsating low end chaos.   I mean my ears can pick out the brilliance of the writing and songs but the production makes me want to stick an ice pick into my f***ing eardrums.   Was "Clockwork Angels" recorded in mono??????   Is that Ringo Starr on the drums?   "Time Stand Still" forever.   I need a drink. They'd have been better using the production values of My Favourite Headache, that one sounds fine. A good album too...   I totally agree Pat! I love the drumming on that record too.   Better than Neil's Main Monkey Business Bullshit 24/7!! Hahaha!!   One thing I've noticed about Neil's drumming since "Vapor Trails" is that it's all the fukking same.   His fills used to be electric. Faster than lightning. Now he just bangs on the drums all day. Trashcan City. Tribal bullshit crap.   Wow I'm being negative tonight.   I've been a Neil fanatic for decades yet how many boring floor tom fills can a man do in every song? Especially on the new album???   His chops are turning into mundane boring fills. He is still the master, yet even masters go through the motions of their most greatest skill.   Neil is the angry mechanic on the drums.   The man is a beast and he will always be my favorite drummer, but everyone will eventually be "Losing It" over mass amounts of time.   The sound of "CA" has me brick walled and blue balled.   Shit, Wendy just went to bed.   I'm screwed.   NOT!   Later alligator!

Edited June 14, 2012 by RUSHHEAD666

[RUSHHEAD666]

QUOTE (Tony R @ Jun 14 2012, 12:56 AM)

Apart from obvious audiophile concerns, my biggest problem with "brickwalling' is that it's done deliberately to attract non-fans. What I mean is that if a song from, say, Clockwork Angels is played on the radio, as an edit on Amazon or itunes, or even in a record store, it "needs" to stand out, or at least be sonically similar too, all the other tunes demanding the casual listener's attention. A fan will automatically tune in, so it is not done for him. Albums, in general, are sent out like Ford's Model T, any colour you want as long as it is black. edit: malnar beat me to it.

"The Wreckers" should be on the radio!!

 

That song sounds sonically balanced to my ears. "The Garden" sounds good too.

 

The rest of the album sounds like Muddy The Mudskipper playing "Day Tripper" backwards underneath a swollen, swirling sea.

 

[treeduck]

QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:47 AM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 01:36 AM) QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:30 AM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 01:14 AM) QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:11 AM) QUOTE (Alchemical @ Jun 14 2012, 12:27 AM) Sheer laziness. I totally agree!!! It's sheer bullshit!!   When I buy an album I want clarity and consistency.   It doesn't have to pop like "Play Deep" by The Outfield but damn I can't stand the mud mixed into the last three Rush records!   Why???   I hate "Test For Echo" but at least the production is clean and clear.   I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too!!   Shit, even "Hemispheres" sounds cleaner and brighter than "Cockwork."   What am I to do?   Sit around naked when the wife is asleep and crank the first Boston album?   What a clean gem!   I absolutely hate compression Pat! It throws my mind into a downward spiral depression!!   Shit man if the cd version of "CA" sounds so compressed who the fukk would want to listen to the album on a download or MP3?   Makes no sense to me!! Then again you can put human shit in vanilla ice cream and the vanilla ice cream will taste like shit. If you try to remove the human shit from the vanilla ice cream it will still taste like shit.   I love keeping the cd market alive. I will never ever conform into the chloroform of life!   I will always "deviate from the norm!" Fuckk the norm.   Signed,   "VITAL SIGNS" It annoys me because I always think my speakers are blown...   Dude and friend! You are preaching to the choir!   I listened to "Clockwork Bad Audio Angles" three times in my ML 350 today.   I had to turn the fukking volume down because I was on the verge of getting a headache.   Even "My Favorite Headache" sounds better! LOL!   Anyway I thought my speakers were going to blow up!   The awkward bass. The trash can drumming. The pulsating low end chaos.   I mean my ears can pick out the brilliance of the writing and songs but the production makes me want to stick an ice pick into my f***ing eardrums.   Was "Clockwork Angels" recorded in mono??????   Is that Ringo Starr on the drums?   "Time Stand Still" forever.   I need a drink. They'd have been better using the production values of My Favourite Headache, that one sounds fine. A good album too...   I totally agree Pat! I love the drumming on that record too.   Better than Neil's Main Monkey Business Bullshit 24/7!! Hahaha!!   One thing I've noticed about Neil's drumming since "Vapor Trails" is that it's all the fukking same.   His fills used to be electric. Faster than lightning. Now he just bangs on the drums all day. Trashcan City. Tribal bullshit crap.   Wow I'm being negative tonight.   I've been a Neil fanatic for decades yet how many boring floor tom fills can a man do in every song? Especially on the new album???   His chops are turning into mundane boring fills. He is still the master, yet even masters go throgh the motions of their most greatest skill.   Neil is the angry mechanic on the drums.   The man is a beast and he will always be my favorite drummer, but everyone will eventually be "Losing It" over mass amounts of time.   The sound of "CA" has me brick walled and blue balled.   Shit, Wendy just went to bed.   I'm screwed.   NOT!   Later alligator! In the new Rolling Stone interview Neil was told by the interviewer that he's the master of the drum kit! Neil said: "NO grasshopper I'm the master student and until I've studied all the jazz patterns of Freddie (rush)Gruber and Peter Foreskin I will even be nothing more than the great drum masturbator!"

[micgtr71]

I think that there is a misinformed belief that louder is better and for that reason "they" master the album to hit the levels. My friend has one of those stereos with the old led levels and any new cd he puts on has them hitting the ceiling. I used to laugh when my record store boss said, "time to put on some vinyl for some softer listening." I used to think he was full of it until he did it a few times. The new cds sound so harsh.

[H. P. L.]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 14 2012, 10:56 AM)

In the new Rolling Stone interview Neil was told by the interviewer that he's the master of the drum kit! Neil said: "NO grasshopper I'm the master student and until I've studied all the jazz patterns of Freddie (rush)Gruber and Peter Foreskin I will even be nothing more than the great drum masturbator!"

He also says he's gonna buy an Harley.

[Sir Lerxst]

Many people would complain if we (engineers) were to release uncompressed material.

 

Even the 'good' old analogue masters were compressed, however due to the nature of analogue medium, the effect is more natural.

 

In 1970 the majority of listening devices were dedicated (not portable players) running through reasonable size speakers. Music didn't have to be dynamically limited to be heard clearly on earbud speakers, over the noise of traffic as you cycle to work, or as you excersize in the gym or whatever.

 

The most basic way I can think to explain the difference between loudness in analogue and digital signals is this. When you overdrive an analogue system, the result is saturation, which is a musical distortion of the signal which (to a point) can sound nice. When you overdrive a digital system you get clipping, which is a mathmatical distortion which sounds nasty.

 

This is why you need to compress digital more, because the ability to saturate the signal is lost, so in order to achieve the same perceived loudness as analogue, you need to cut the transients. I do think that it got a little out of hand in the mid 00's, but things are gradually getting better now.

[Bangster of Goats]

Yes, indeed, thankfully, people are starting to see the light. The last Tom Petty album, for example, they recorded it, mixed it, and then... all but skipped the mastering process. They felt the in-studio mix was enough, no further tweaks required.

 

It isn't that digital is necessarily limited (no pun intended!). Even the plain old 16-bit 44.1k audio CD format has more than enough dynamic range available for a typical rock album. It's there, I have old CDs that sound brilliant and actually make use of the range available, but the trend the past decade or so has been to just slam the levels for all the reasons that have been covered in this thread.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Bangster of Goats

[Del_Duio]

QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:24 AM)

I sure as hell am not an expert but I've put my money where my big mouth is. I've spent a ton of money over the decades to try and find the best audio sound on a compact disc. Shit man, you guys would love my Cd Library.  Libraries are dead and soon so will audio fidelity. You young kids will just listen to your shit iPods and docking stations. What will happen when your shit crashes and you have nothing? Don't come to my house.  As I will never get rid of my aluminum and gold discs of true love!!! You may laugh at me for wasting money on the hard real shit but at the end of the day I will laugh last!! The USA may very well give up on the audio cd format but I will bet your young ass bottom dollar that Japan and the UK will NEVER stop pressing these cds!!! Go ahead children and download "Permanent Waves."  Nothing will touch my cd MFSL version in the lp mini sleeve. Audio Fidelity is going to release Jane's Addiction's "Nothing's Shocking" cd on gold.  I can't wait!!! Many of you old curmudgeons will laugh at that reissue!  I simply can't wait to hear it's sonic brilliance!! I have no idea why "Vapor Trails," "Snakes & Arrows," and "Clockwork Angels" sound like shit production wise. Again, maybe it's the way Geddy, Alex and Neil wanted the last three records to sound? Not really sure.  Is anyone on this forum really sure about the current Rush sound? I think the music on the last three records is EPIC and stunning. Sadly I think the production consists of fresh warm dog shit melting under a sexy smoldering summer sun. "It is what it is........"

And you'll also never take his

 

FREEEEEDOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!

 

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2008/07/31/kobal_braveheart460.jpg

[Del_Duio]

QUOTE (tas7 @ Jun 14 2012, 03:44 AM)

Hard to gauge Clockwork Angels as I haven't got the CD yet but have noticed the difference between the first and second choruses of The Garden at 256 kbps streaming.The second is heavily compressed to me as bass and drums were added.

To me it sounds loads better than VT, but there is some "mud" in there. It's impossible for me not to notice- especially when I want to blast it in the car

 

Luckily the songs themselves are so good.