grooloops Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Since I know nothing about music, theory/playing/recognizing time signature, the like, How much can those of you who know, get out of Rush, then those of us who don't. As in to say, how much more of a trip is it listening with that knowledge. If you can come up with some sort of way to compare, might be hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I had 12 years of classical piano training. It doesn't have any noticeable effect on how I listen to Rush; never has. I don't feel as if I have any kind of "edge" over fans who've never had music lessons. Perhaps it would be different if I'd studied something a bit more "rock-oriented". I don't know. Interesting question, though. *I should add that the last three years of my piano playing were done under extreme duress. I wanted to quit when I was 14 or 15 - I was talented but was never going to be any kind of virtuoso. Parents threatened, bribed, and cajoled me into continuing. Mainly threatened. So I left my music training at the week's lessons, pretty much. I sure wasn't going to drag it over to something I loved, like Rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Not Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 If I learn how to play song, it takes the magic out of it when I listen to it on mp3... So I never learn/cover songs anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
presto123 Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I've been able to play Rush on drums since 1985. Never when I'm listening to Rush do I think.....that passage was in 7/8. One of Rush's strengths are making their odd time signatures flow. Or making them not seem like an odd time. I think even the doc brought up this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 There's a member here who claims to have learned every single Rush song on bass; I'm guessing he'll add his 2 cents to the thread. I have no reason to doubt his ability, but my perception is that it's drained much of the "wow" factor out of Rush for him. Overdo and you can analyze the joy right out of anything. It's like music critics - be it rock or classical. They can never go and just enjoy a performance like anyone else. They're geared towards picking everything to bits. I'm not saying it's wrong or that it shouldn't be done - I just can't relate to someone for whom a missed split-sixteenth note defines a performance-wrecking moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanadude69 Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I have been playing guitar for 8 years and bass for 3 years. I think I can see deeper into Rush songs than non-musicians. I am not saying I can enjoy a Rush song more, I am just saying I can see (or hear) the details better. A non-painter can look at a painting and say "Wow isn't that great" A painter can look at the same painting with the same level of enjoyment but the painter knows what it took to get that certain shadowing or accent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIDE-ANGLE WATCHER Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Ignorance can be bliss. To the untrained ear a less than great performance can be still be a very inspirational and moving experience. Music is a very subjective medium. I have had more musically inclined friends pick apart and scrutinize some of RUSH'S live recordings where I had thought it sounded so good. RUSH definitely has a high quality live performance and to me some of the variations (some would say mistakes, even train wrecks) are just the human factor translated into an elegant and subjective nuance of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choose/the/light Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 knowing music theory/technique has just made me even more amazed by Rush. they are absolutely amazing. and as stated, they use odd time signatures at will. so awesome. you wouldn't know it but songs like Limelight and The Trees change time a bunch of times, including asymmetrical time signatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaldad Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I have been playing drums for 30 years. The fun was learning to play the songs and screwing up and finally Getting it . The only advantage i Think a person that plays an instrument has over the person that Does not play an instrument is, some things sound really hard to play to the person that is Not a musician . "You can play Limelight ?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 After being on this board for years and watching musicians analyze and take apart their music often to insane extremes, especially analyzing the instrument(s) they themselves play to the nth degree, I always thought that me being a non-musician was a distinct advantage. I always just hope that when musicians listen to Rush and analyze time signatures, gear, tones and every nuance of every technical musical component part ad nauseum and have it all figured out exactly how everything was done to a science, that they remember to put it all back together again when they listen. Is it possible after taking it apart to such a degree to be able to step back and just say, "damn, that sounds cool?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 QUOTE (grooloops @ Jun 17 2010, 09:59 PM) Since I know nothing about music, theory/playing/recognizing time signature, the like, How much can those of you who know, get out of Rush, then those of us who don't. As in to say, how much more of a trip is it listening with that knowledge. If you can come up with some sort of way to compare, might be hard Ive been playing bass since I was 6, switch to a 6 string bass at 12 when I started listening to a lot more complex music. It doesnt make a difference to me because I listen to bands that are far more complex than Rush ever was. I guess the only thing abut being an experienced musician does is make you realize that Rush is not very complex at all. I guess they come off that way to non-musicians, or to musicians that maybe arent very skilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 19 2010, 10:27 AM) After being on this board for years and watching musicians analyze and take apart their music often to insane extremes, especially analyzing the instrument(s) they themselves play to the nth degree, I always thought that me being a non-musician was a distinct advantage. I always just hope that when musicians listen to Rush and analyze time signatures, gear, tones and every nuance of every technical musical component part ad nauseum and have it all figured out exactly how everything was done to a science, that they remember to put it all back together again when they listen. Is it possible after taking it apart to such a degree to be able to step back and just say, "damn, that sounds cool?" I think you're right. In some ways its fun to be a musician and play Rush, especially when you're just starting out, but in other ways as you get better their music becomes simpler to you, and then it gets harder to appreciate the musicianship in the band. Of course everyone has great respect for them regardless of how good you are, but I do think that as you start getting better, and learning songs from bands more complex than Rush, its gets harder to appreciate their skill level. But one thing that never dies is the actual song writing, because when it comes down to it, thats what rush is all about. They dont write usually write songs trying to make something as difficult to play as they can possibly write, whereas many other prog bands do and the result to me is weaker songs, but much stronger playing. So at this point, I appreciate good song writing more than what the musicians can actually do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 19 2010, 08:42 AM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 19 2010, 10:27 AM) After being on this board for years and watching musicians analyze and take apart their music often to insane extremes, especially analyzing the instrument(s) they themselves play to the nth degree, I always thought that me being a non-musician was a distinct advantage. I always just hope that when musicians listen to Rush and analyze time signatures, gear, tones and every nuance of every technical musical component part ad nauseum and have it all figured out exactly how everything was done to a science, that they remember to put it all back together again when they listen. Is it possible after taking it apart to such a degree to be able to step back and just say, "damn, that sounds cool?" I think you're right. In some ways its fun to be a musician and play Rush, especially when you're just starting out, but in other ways as you get better their music becomes simpler to you, and then it gets harder to appreciate the musicianship in the band. Of course everyone has great respect for them regardless of how good you are, but I do think that as you start getting better, and learning songs from bands more complex than Rush, its gets harder to appreciate their skill level. But one thing that never dies is the actual song writing, because when it comes down to it, thats what rush is all about. They dont write usually write songs trying to make something as difficult to play as they can possibly write, whereas many other prog bands do and the result to me is weaker songs, but much stronger playing. So at this point, I appreciate good song writing more than what the musicians can actually do. I can understand how other bands are even more complex musically than Rush, even as a non-musician. Still, it's complex enough for me to find it VERY satisfying, but in the end it really is about songwriting. I love many groups who are musically far simpler than Rush, and it's because they write great songs. I love Rush because they write great songs. And I have heard some prog groups that have the infinite complexity and skill thing down, but if the songwriting isn't there, it just sounds like technical ability with no soul. And that leads me to the musicians here who can duplicate Rush. I just don't find it that impressive. Ok, actually I do, I seriously admire the skill it takes to be able to play that well, but learning to copy something to me seems relatively meaningless next to being able to create it from nothing yourself. I've heard guitarists who can play Hendrix better than Hendrix, and it's REALLY cool, but can they create anything that good musically with as much soul and fantastic songwriting on their own? That to me is infinitely more impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostnotes Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I have learned every song on the drums and after all of this time, it is still just as exciting to listen to as it is to play. My enthusiasm and respect for their musicianship has only grown through the process of learning it. On another note "pun intended" i can not read music, I know odd time when i hear it but cant tell you what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeddysMullet Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Part of the wonder of music to me is that it is mysterious. I've tried to learn about music, tried to learn to play instruments, had people explain time signatures and such to me, and I just don't get it. I understand the basics, but I must lack something essential to real comprehension. It's like a foreign language in which I know how to say only "Hello" and "I love you." This makes music seem like something positively magical to me. I'm not going to say that this means I get more out of music than people who understand/can play it, but I certainly don't believe that it means I get any less. I do know that as a filmmaker, I am less able than other people to enjoy films in certain ways, but am also more able to enjoy them in other ways. An example of this is the Rush documentary. Although I probably enjoyed the film as a pure viewing experience somewhat less than people who weren't bothered about the filmmaking style and just wanted to see all the good stuff about Rush, I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of thinking about what I would have done differently if I'd been making the film. At the same time, while the extra pleasure that I take in understanding why a well-made film is well-made might not be felt by someone who doesn't know anything about filmmaking, that person who doesn't can experience a wonder unsullied by knowledge of the "tricks of the trade" that I can't feel. My guess is that it all probably balances out for musicians and non-musicians in that same sort of way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Music is one of the more effective ways to communicate emotions. That's why it's used in movies to set the "feeling" of a scene. I think most people listen to music because they like the way it makes them feel. Understanding intellectually what goes into the creation of music enhances the listening experience because you are using both sides of your brain to listen. The cognitive and the emotional side. When I listen to music it's almost like I have a multi-track recorder in my brain. I try to simultaneously follow what each instrument is doing all the while experiencing the whole song. Does that make sense? It's also pretty clear that doing something yourself, be it painting, playing a sport or playing a musical instrument gives your a greater appreciation for someone who does it really well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostnotes Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 QUOTE (Rand @ Jun 19 2010, 10:19 AM) Music is one of the more effective ways to communicate emotions. That's why it's used in movies to set the "feeling" of a scene. I think most people listen to music because they like the way it makes them feel. Understanding intellectually what goes into the creation of music enhances the listening experience because you are using both sides of your brain to listen. The cognitive and the emotional side. When I listen to music it's almost like I have a multi-track recorder in my brain. I try to simultaneously follow what each instrument is doing all the while experiencing the whole song. Does that make sense? It's also pretty clear that doing something yourself, be it painting, playing a sport or playing a musical instrument gives your a greater appreciation for someone who does it really well. Exactly and precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeddysMullet Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 QUOTE (Ghostnotes @ Jun 19 2010, 12:25 PM) QUOTE (Rand @ Jun 19 2010, 10:19 AM) It's also pretty clear that doing something yourself, be it painting, playing a sport or playing a musical instrument gives your a greater appreciation for someone who does it really well. I disagree that having a skill yourself gives you universally greater appreciation of practitioners of the same of skill. I believe that it gives you a greater appreciation of certain aspects of that practise, but I will not concede that my overall appreciation of music is less than yours or another musician's simply because I lack musical abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
presto123 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 QUOTE (Ghostnotes @ Jun 19 2010, 10:52 AM) I have learned every song on the drums and after all of this time, it is still just as exciting to listen to as it is to play. My enthusiasm and respect for their musicianship has only grown through the process of learning it. On another note "pun intended" i can not read music, I know odd time when i hear it but cant tell you what it is. Dude....it's not that difficult to recognize and count odd times. But you're right...unless it is an Extremely difficult or weird arrangement I never count while I'm playing....I just feel it. The understanding of odd times is very uesful when constructing music though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer.2112 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I am a self-taught musician. I learned the bass line to Fly By Night well before I took music theory. I have to omit i've learned a lot of Rush peices through tableture-YYZ,Xanadu. The harmonic touchs in Xanadu are amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostnotes Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I understand them from a feel point of view and can arrange them as well.Also pushing and pulling time depending on the song. A lot of times i have jammed with people and while playing, i would go into odd time or push it over the barline and they would stop... thinking i messed up, but i told them to start over and just keep on and i would fall back in with them. After that i would usually get a response like that sounded cool. On the other hand if i have someone tell me to play in 5/8, 7/12 or something like that i am kind of lost, but in the end i figure it out. I'm an odd drummer all the way around. Can't read music, I'm left handed on a right handed set and when i get together with someone new and jam, i usually go off of the vocals if I'm not totally familiar with the whole song. Strange, I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromancer Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 After a half-assed "attempt" at being a bass player, I think it added something to my appreciation of a song. Now, when I hear an incredible run, I am way more blown away than when I was just a listener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarkus406 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 QUOTE (Kenneth @ Jun 17 2010, 11:17 PM) If I learn how to play song, it takes the magic out of it when I listen to it on mp3... So I never learn/cover songs anymore. It's actually the opposite for me. I love being able to play a song, because when I listen to it, I know exactly what's being played on all instruments. It's like being able to watch a movie and not miss a single detail about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigalfan Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 QUOTE (Tarkus407 @ Jun 19 2010, 12:23 PM)QUOTE (Kenneth @ Jun 17 2010, 11:17 PM) If I learn how to play song, it takes the magic out of it when I listen to it on mp3... So I never learn/cover songs anymore. It's actually the opposite for me. I love being able to play a song, because when I listen to it, I know exactly what's being played on all instruments. It's like being able to watch a movie and not miss a single detail about anything. Agreed! I'm a hobby guitarist. When I was younger, oh so many years ago, it was Lifeson, more than any other guitarist, that compelled me to play more and...play better. Rush has just enough power chords for the beginner to feel like they're actually playing something and MORE than enough ridiculous material (meant in an awe-struck way) to keep a carrot in front of the best. All that being said, since I play guitar - I am constantly amazed at the SPEED at which this band changes chords, notes and tempos. I think it's hard to appreciate fully unless you play an instrument. Being a guitarist makes me appreciate Alex - as well as Geddy and Neil - all that much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Show Don't Tell Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 QUOTE (bigalfan @ Jun 19 2010, 01:45 PM)QUOTE (Tarkus407 @ Jun 19 2010, 12:23 PM)QUOTE (Kenneth @ Jun 17 2010, 11:17 PM) If I learn how to play song, it takes the magic out of it when I listen to it on mp3... So I never learn/cover songs anymore. It's actually the opposite for me. I love being able to play a song, because when I listen to it, I know exactly what's being played on all instruments. It's like being able to watch a movie and not miss a single detail about anything. Agreed! I'm a hobby guitarist. When I was younger, oh so many years ago, it was Lifeson, more than any other guitarist, that compelled me to play more and...play better. Rush has just enough power chords for the beginner to feel like they're actually playing something and MORE than enough ridiculous material (meant in an awe-struck way) to keep a carrot in front of the best. All that being said, since I play guitar - I am constantly amazed at the SPEED at which this band changes chords, notes and tempos. I think it's hard to appreciate fully unless you play an instrument. Being a guitarist makes me appreciate Alex - as well as Geddy and Neil - all that much more. This. I am also a guitarist, and Alex was my inspiration to learn. Before I discovered Rush, I had already played piano for five years (mostly classical), but it was when I discovered Rush that I developed a true love for music. It was when I learned guitar that I considered myself a true musician. (I'm not knocking piano, it is my second favourite instrument. Guitar was just where I learned a lot more about music, coincidentally.) I must say that in my pre-musician days, I was amazed by what Rush could do in terms of complexity and songwriting. When I became a musician, that feeling increased tenfold. Along with what Tarkus407 said, when I listen to a song I can picture myself playing the exact notes, while noting all the little nuances, time signature changes, key changes, etc. Does it take away for me anything that the song is offering? Hell no! In fact, it makes listening to songs much for fun and enjoyable for me. Complexity? Sure, there are bands more complex than Rush. But I'm almost certain everyone would agree that Rush is a complex band. Furthermore, their songwriting abilities are stellar. Some my favourite songs utilise only four or five chords throughout the entire song, and are written in 4/4 time. But it's the arrangement, the textures, the emotions and sounds that we have to also consider. And that's what makes a great song. Rush just took it to the next level with their complexity. I believe that a non-musician can appreciate a song just as much as a musician can. But, as GeddysMullet said, musicians and non-musicians each appreciate different aspects of music. http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u195/Number-4/Emoticons/2cents.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.