Neil's drum set: better with single or double bass?

[grasbo]

As far as aesthetics go double bass drums look the part as far as rawk bands go.Like a stack of Marshall amps or to lesser a extent washing machines.

But Neil is no ordinary rock drummer and i personally like it when he has stripped back his kit like at the Toronto Rocks gig.Certainly a double bass will give

a different and bigger sound but when it comes to power one only has to look at John Bonham at his single drum kit.

[Mr. Not]

Though double bass or quadruple bass, can go too far. Metal or just plain ridiculous?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBtB7kpRqWs

 

Sounds like a bug infestation

 

Aww... I was going into that fully expecting to like it.

[goose]

I want quadruple bass drums! :Neil:

 

Alex Van Halen, ladies and germs...

 

In a somewhat recent Modern Drummer article, AVH mentions that one of his current four bass drums is really a little fridge used to keep his drinks cold, but made up to look like a bass drum. :hail:

 

I tried to post a pic, but was foiled. :(

If you're curious, have a look on Google Images. "bass drum fridge" or "van halen bass drum" should bring it right up!

 

How about this beauty?

[Pound of Obscure]

The R40 drum kit was dull sounding but the original Chromey sounded awesome. Much better than any kit that he after that with the exception of the red Tama's.

 

what she said.

 

Mick

 

I personally liked the sound of the R40 drums more than either CA Tour or TM Tour, since those are the only concerts I've been to.

 

The single bass drum kit sounded OK but the double bass kit was muddy as heck. None of the toms were distinct. It might've been how they had it miked but the shows I went to it it didn't sound very clear.

Neil's drums have sounded like crap since T4E and the coated heads. He got rid of the coated crap but the drum sound never recovered.

[fraroc]

Single bass drum is better.

 

When you're mic-ing a drum kit, especially live, you're trying to find as much tone as you can without picking up resonance from... literally everything else happening.

 

When I used to play in bands and stuff, all of two years ago, I had plenty of chances to go with two bass drums. It'd save some money even, given the price of the double pedals compared to two single pedals and how cheap and easy bass drums are to find... but if you're trying to keep your tone options open, and not just clip/gate the hell out of the thing, you need to get less resonance across the board.

 

At least, that's what I always read, and heard from audio engineers.

 

Just too much unneeded resonance in two of the things.

 

As much as I like you, I feel like your attitude is just leftover 1990s "stripped down, no big show, no guitar solos" attitude that is still being felt today. As much as my opinion of that attitude started a huge argument last time, I still think it needs to be said because people underestimate how much damage that did to the live show.

Edited December 7, 2016 by fraroc

[Grover]

The double bass drum looks cool because it makes the kit look bigger but Neil is too practical for superficial choices. It preferred the acoustic chimes and accessories and didn't find the sound improved when he went to samples.

[New World Kid]

Single bass drum is better.

 

When you're mic-ing a drum kit, especially live, you're trying to find as much tone as you can without picking up resonance from... literally everything else happening.

 

When I used to play in bands and stuff, all of two years ago, I had plenty of chances to go with two bass drums. It'd save some money even, given the price of the double pedals compared to two single pedals and how cheap and easy bass drums are to find... but if you're trying to keep your tone options open, and not just clip/gate the hell out of the thing, you need to get less resonance across the board.

 

At least, that's what I always read, and heard from audio engineers.

 

Just too much unneeded resonance in two of the things.

 

As much as I like you, I feel like your attitude is just leftover 1990s "stripped down, no big show, no guitar solos" attitude that is still being felt today. As much as my opinion of that attitude started a huge argument last time, I still think it needs to be said because people underestimate how much damage that did to the live show.

 

The guy's got a drumset that encompasses a full 360 degrees. I don't think improving the sound quality and not taking away any of Neil's parts is stripping it down.

 

Rush's show didn't get worse in the 90's. The shows were as big as ever with the lights and pyrotechnics and lasers and especially the emphasis on video.

 

Cut to the Chase, 1993, has a rippin' solo.

 

I... don't really get where you're coming from.

[EagleMoon]

The double bass drum looks cool because it makes the kit look bigger but Neil is too practical for superficial choices. It preferred the acoustic chimes and accessories and didn't find the sound improved when he went to samples.

 

Exactly. I can understand embracing new technology and I'm sure dragging around all that acoustic percussion was a bit of a pain but nothing sounds like the real thing.

[78jazz]

I liked Neil's double bass drums much better... you can add the two other tenor toms back into the mix as well.

 

Side note - I've been drumming all of my life on and off... I always played two bass drums. A few times I tried a single drum with the double pedal and it always felt weird to me. The drumless pedal never had the impact of the direct hit of the mallet striking the drum head. Likely this was all in my head, but it sure felt better (and I think I played better) with two drums. Plus, two drums makes a great rack mount for the toms!!!

 

I thought Dave Lombardo has said that a mallet in the center of the bass drum is different than a double pedal with one pedal hitting to the side of the center. Makes sense to me.

 

Count me in as someone who prefers the aesthetics and the space that 2 bass drums provides.

 

Single bass drum is better.

 

When you're mic-ing a drum kit, especially live, you're trying to find as much tone as you can without picking up resonance from... literally everything else happening.

 

When I used to play in bands and stuff, all of two years ago, I had plenty of chances to go with two bass drums. It'd save some money even, given the price of the double pedals compared to two single pedals and how cheap and easy bass drums are to find... but if you're trying to keep your tone options open, and not just clip/gate the hell out of the thing, you need to get less resonance across the board.

 

At least, that's what I always read, and heard from audio engineers.

 

Just too much unneeded resonance in two of the things.

 

Frank Zappa commented on this book about how the way a drum kit is mic'd in a studio provides a sound that you can not hear in any way and that that artificial sound has become the norm (page 157 in The Real Frank Zappa Book, if anyone cares).

[Carvan Alex]

Double bass, it really fits Neil just perfectly. He always needed it no matter what.

[fraroc]

Single bass drum is better.

 

When you're mic-ing a drum kit, especially live, you're trying to find as much tone as you can without picking up resonance from... literally everything else happening.

 

When I used to play in bands and stuff, all of two years ago, I had plenty of chances to go with two bass drums. It'd save some money even, given the price of the double pedals compared to two single pedals and how cheap and easy bass drums are to find... but if you're trying to keep your tone options open, and not just clip/gate the hell out of the thing, you need to get less resonance across the board.

 

At least, that's what I always read, and heard from audio engineers.

 

Just too much unneeded resonance in two of the things.

 

As much as I like you, I feel like your attitude is just leftover 1990s "stripped down, no big show, no guitar solos" attitude that is still being felt today. As much as my opinion of that attitude started a huge argument last time, I still think it needs to be said because people underestimate how much damage that did to the live show.

 

The guy's got a drumset that encompasses a full 360 degrees. I don't think improving the sound quality and not taking away any of Neil's parts is stripping it down.

 

Rush's show didn't get worse in the 90's. The shows were as big as ever with the lights and pyrotechnics and lasers and especially the emphasis on video.

 

Cut to the Chase, 1993, has a rippin' solo.

 

I... don't really get where you're coming from.

 

It has nothing to do with Rush at all actually, as they were one of the outliers. I'm talking about the shift in attitude from the 1980s "bigger is better" attitude to the 1990s "bigger is lame and small and stripped down is better" attitude. I truly believe that rock and metal as a visual act has not fully recovered from that.

[condemned2bfree]

I like Dave Lombardos take on why to use 2 separate double bass drums, over one drum with two pedals.

 

Lombardo states his reasons for using two bass drums: "when you hit the bass drum the head is still resonating. When you hit it in the same place right after that you kinda get a 'slapback' from the bass drum head hitting the other pedal. You're not letting them breathe." And in his interview with guitar center in spring of 2012:"I don't like a double pedal because when the beater hits, I immediately come back with the other pedal. And that head is resonating, which creates a momentum that isn't helpful. It throws me off balance. With two bass drums, I don't have any problems. It's just a feel thing."

 

I have heard him say before, when one bass drum is used, with a double pedal, once struck the other pedal cuts out the resonance, which feels unatural to him, and makes sense to me.

[RUSHHEAD666]

"DUH"BLE BASS!

 

So obvious.

 

Once Neil went to single kick with the weak ass double pedal.

 

It all went downhill.

[RUSHHEAD666]

I want quadruple bass drums! :Neil:

 

Alex Van Halen, ladies and germs...

 

Absolutely Epic!

 

Love the kit on the 1984 tour as well. Saw it.

 

Too bad he never played his octobans. WEAK

Edited December 7, 2016 by RUSHHEAD666

[HalfwayToGone]

Double bass drums. Using a double bass pedal on a single bass drum won't provide as quality a sound as two individual bass drums.

That's funny, because in over 30 years of drumming I've noticed almost every drummer on earth does drum rolls with their hands on single drums, and not one of them complains that it would provide better sound quality if they had two nearly identical drums, one for each hand. I'm about 99% positive that the main reason drummers ever started using two kicks was because the double pedal hadn't been invented yet, so it was the only option if one wanted to use their hi hat foot to play kick on occasion. Now that the double pedal exists, the only reason to have 2 kicks is if you want two different sounding kick drums, or if you like a fast double kick beat to sound as muddy and trampling all over itself as possible. When you play fast with a double pedal, the previous beat is muted each time a new beater hits the drum head, so the roll on the kick is much more defined and audible, while with two kicks, the drums step all over each between each beater strike, and if they're the same note or very slightly out of tune with each other, they affect each other even worse. So I guess you could also say a second reason to have two kicks is because you hate sound guys, or a third would be that you have a tiny weenie and want as gigantic a kit around you as possible to look more impressive to the chicks.

[HalfwayToGone]

Oh, and while Dave Lombardo is technically correct, ill repeat, the vibration of the head never stopped any drummer from doing a snare roll or tom roll, because it "throws their other hand off." Dave's a a great drummer, but he's gnit picking. Also, no one hits the exact center of a drum every single time when playing with sticks. Sure you strive to do so, but being a bit off center is perfectly ok, and doesn't ruin a drum roll. I dont know any drummers who like playing buzz rolls with their feet, but if you can do one on one snare drum, then vibration clearly isn't throwing you off there, so why should it matter with your feet? It's purely a matter of being used to how it feels after years of doing it one way, and noticing the difference when you switch. After trying double kick, my first single pedal felt weird. Now after 30 years of playing a double pedal, double kick feels much weirder, because it's not at all what I'm accustomed to.

[EagleMoon]

Oh, and while Dave Lombardo is technically correct, ill repeat, the vibration of the head never stopped any drummer from doing a snare roll or tom roll, because it "throws their other hand off." Dave's a a great drummer, but he's gnit picking. Also, no one hits the exact center of a drum every single time when playing with sticks. Sure you strive to do so, but being a bit off center is perfectly ok, and doesn't ruin a drum roll. I dont know any drummers who like playing buzz rolls with their feet, but if you can do one on one snare drum, then vibration clearly isn't throwing you off there, so why should it matter with your feet? It's purely a matter of being used to how it feels after years of doing it one way, and noticing the difference when you switch. After trying double kick, my first single pedal felt weird. Now after 30 years of playing a double pedal, double kick feels much weirder, because it's not at all what I'm accustomed to.

 

They do have a point though. The size of the drum/drum head means it takes longer for the sound wave to travel and if you play with any speed you're going to be having overlap on the outgoing and incoming waves.

[EagleMoon]

Good interview with Neil where he talks about both of his kits for R40.

 

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/rush/modern-drummer-01.2016.php

[HalfwayToGone]

They do have a point though. The size of the drum/drum head means it takes longer for the sound wave to travel and if you play with any speed you're going to be having overlap on the outgoing and incoming waves.

 

Here's where all that physics pays off... The effect of hitting the head at one or another point in the course of one vibration is pretty negligible, because the frequency of vibration once you smack the drum is much higher than anyone can ever play (know anyone playing hundreds or thousands of beats per second? Me either), and the distance the head vibrates is also much smaller than the distance it moves when your foot smashes a bass drum beater into it. Also, it's not as if the head stops vibrating in between beats just because you are hitting the drum half as blindingly fast as you would be with a double pedal. Same thing applies to the initial shock wave ripple traveling back and forth between the rim and center--hitting the drum half as very fast isn't really going to radically change the affect your foot feels. So again, I'll respectfully call it splitting hairs. The size of even a giant kick drum compared to the speed of sound (330 meters per second if I remember correctly) makes it improbable that Dave's explanation accounts for the difference in how either setup feels. I'm convinced it has much more to do with things like the fact that one pedal has an arm connected to it and therefore a little more resistance to push through, the fact that two bass drums cause each other to vibrate, the fact that you generally have to spread your legs farther apart to play with two kicks unless they are small, and the slight difference in the spot where the beaters hit the head (which can be compensated for by changing the tension of the head a little bit).

[HalfwayToGone]

Good interview with Neil where he talks about both of his kits for R40.

 

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/rush/modern-drummer-01.2016.php

I've read this before--yeah, he comments on the one drum resonating in the other, and I guess his sound guys like how it sounds out front. I'm guessing they mean the extra tone they get when he's just playing the main kick, and not how it affects a faster double bass roll like a thrash beat in a slayer song.

[JARG]

Striking a guitar string is not all that dissimilar from a kick drum pedal striking a drum head. Most of the time when I strike a guitar string with a pick, that string is already vibrating from a previous strike. From my perspective neither the sound nor the ergonomics of such a phenomenon has a negative effect on my ability to play, or even of my perceived comfort level. Edited December 8, 2016 by JARG

[HalfwayToGone]

yeah, although you don't see guitars with two low E strings. Anyway the most you can say is that you prefer one sound to the other, or that you prefer how one way feels over the other since there are differences certainly.

[Rod in Toronto]

[78jazz]

Double bass drums. Using a double bass pedal on a single bass drum won't provide as quality a sound as two individual bass drums.

So I guess you could also say a second reason to have two kicks is because you hate sound guys, or a third would be that you have a tiny weenie and want as gigantic a kit around you as possible to look more impressive to the chicks.

 

So it must be one of those 2 reasons? It couldn't be a practical reason?

[HalfwayToGone]

Read further--and reason number one was a practical reason: you want two different kick sounds. But I also said some people are just used to how one way or the other feels. The whole "better quality sound" is what I'm arguing against--that's a personal preference. It's like saying chocolate is a better quality flavor than vanilla. If you like a more boomy double bass sound, playing with your legs spread farther apart and your hihat way over to the left, and don't like the way a double pedal feels, then go with two kicks. If you like a tighter sound, like having a more comfortable setup and aren't tripped up at all by the different feel, a double pedal works perfectly fine.