CA and satire

[goose]

[condemned2bfree]

QUOTE (CygnusGal @ Aug 7 2012, 01:21 AM)

I have not seen the role of satire on the Clockwork Angels album addressed on another thread and I think it is significant to the CA narrative. Neil writes: "Time is still the infinite jest". This statement leads my mind to the question: then what are finite jests? Satire is an answer. I think Clockwork Angels (album) is a deep satire. I believe satire adds more dimension and cohesion to the album - a wondrous work of fiction that reflects our own world. I think the "proverb" in CA song provides the deepest insight into satire: Lean not upon your own understanding Ignorance is well and truly blessed Trust in perfect love, and perfect planning Everything will turn out for the best. Geddy repeats: "And everything will turn out for the best." The "proverb" comes from an "In-N-Out" milkshake - that is a burger joint (The In-N-Out). So, the CA universe philosophy is based, in part, on a "proverb" from a burger joint's milkshake? It sounds silly, because a "proverb" coming from a burger joint is silly. Satire. "The universe has a plan; all is for the best; some will be rewarded and the devil will take the rest; we are only human, it's not ours to understand; in a world where all must fail, Heaven's justice will prevail; believing what we're told until our final breath, while our loving Watchmaker loves us all to death." "And everything will turn out for the best." Familiar themes in our society and culture. "It is what it is - and whatever". A rebuke of the naivety of the "proverb", but an awakening to its underlying reality. "The Watchmaker keeps to his schemes/The Watchmaker has time up his sleeve", but now "the measure of a life is a measure of love and respect; in the fullness of time it's the only return that you expect". The love is the reward is the work is the love...an on and on until time plays its final jest. Stunningly complex yet stunningly simple. Clockwork Angels (or Optimism). A brilliant satire. Standard disclaimer:

Totally felt and agreed.

 

[Animate]

QUOTE (spock @ Aug 7 2012, 08:48 PM)

Hmmm, your thesis seems logical, but I'm still letting Candide sink in. Finished it a few days ago, left me with a "meh" feeling. My feel for the whole CA thing lately is that it's a brilliant blend of a dozen sources (Candide, The Secret Agent, etc) that produced a dozen meanings (semi-autobiographical, metafictional, recasting of the Candide story in a steampunk era, career summation, career expansion, nod to the past while breaking from the past, bits and pieces of a whole new novel based on other novels, I could go on (wait! I just did go on!) Satire: the use of irony or sarcasm. Hmmm (hmmm part 2): Owen is discontent on the farm - leaves home for adventures - only to find contentment on a farm (or garden); just after singing "live it all again", Geddy sings "faith has failed me now, I choose to live" (implying that he was considering the alternative), the Pedlar's "What do you lack" is ironic because the thing Owen lacked, he actually started with - a simple life. My 2 pennies for today..

Great thread, great analysis CygnusGal!

 

Spock- I agree with your analysis. CA lyrics are brilliant because in 12 songs, they express a lifetime of growth of an individual struggling with the discrepancies between faith and observed reality, and finally coming full circle back to simplistic truths via experience rather then blind acceptance.

 

It is interesting to compare and contrast the idea of returning to a simple life in CA with the same story in Subdivisions. On the surface, Subdivisions has a similar overall theme- leaving home to go for adventure to the city, then returning at the end to the quiet streets.

 

However, Subdivisions ends by implying that one would move back to the 'burbs as a result of failure- giving up the dream for small comforts or because instead of succeeding- they it are trapped in the rat race of an unfulfilling 9 - 5 (!The Watchmaker!) schedule.

 

Some will sell their dreams for small desires

Or lose the race to rats

Get caught in ticking traps

And start to dream of somewhere

To relax their restless flight....

 

Big difference, of course, is that the suburbs are not the garden.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Animate

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

 

It's a long listen, but if you haven't already, try it on for size. He talks about the Proverbs notation, too.

 

I could listen to his voice all day.

[goose]

QUOTE (Animate @ Aug 8 2012, 08:37 AM)

QUOTE (spock @ Aug 7 2012, 08:48 PM) Hmmm, your thesis seems logical, but I'm still letting Candide sink in. Finished it a few days ago, left me with a "meh" feeling. My feel for the whole CA thing lately is that it's a brilliant blend of a dozen sources (Candide, The Secret Agent, etc) that produced a dozen meanings (semi-autobiographical, metafictional, recasting of the Candide story in a steampunk era, career summation, career expansion, nod to the past while breaking from the past, bits and pieces of a whole new novel based on other novels, I could go on (wait! I just did go on!) Satire: the use of irony or sarcasm. Hmmm (hmmm part 2): Owen is discontent on the farm - leaves home for adventures - only to find contentment on a farm (or garden); just after singing "live it all again", Geddy sings "faith has failed me now, I choose to live" (implying that he was considering the alternative), the Pedlar's "What do you lack" is ironic because the thing Owen lacked, he actually started with - a simple life. My 2 pennies for today.. Great thread, great analysis CygnusGal!   Spock- I agree with your analysis. CA lyrics are brilliant because in 12 songs, they express a lifetime of growth of an individual struggling with the discrepancies between faith and observed reality, and finally coming full circle back to simplistic truths via experience rather then blind acceptance.   It is interesting to compare and contrast the idea of returning to a simple life in CA with the same story in Subdivisions. On the surface, Subdivisions has a similar overall theme- leaving home to go for adventure to the city, then returning at the end to the quiet streets.   However, Subdivisions ends by implying that one would move back to the 'burbs as a result of failure- giving up the dream for small comforts or because instead of succeeding- they it are trapped in the rat race of an unfulfilling 9 - 5 (!The Watchmaker!) schedule.   Some will sell their dreams for small desires Or lose the race to rats Get caught in ticking traps And start to dream of somewhere To relax their restless flight....   Big difference, of course, is that the suburbs are not the garden. The Garden is everywhere, and nowhere, depending on your choices. In the end, all we strive for, all we believe we create in terms of material wealth and career-centered accomplishment, is fleeting. Neil presents the measure of a fruitful life as this:   Did you love? Having loved, were you loved in return?

[CygnusGal]

QUOTE (spock @ Aug 7 2012, 09:48 PM)

Hmmm, your thesis seems logical, but I'm still letting Candide sink in. Finished it a few days ago, left me with a "meh" feeling. My feel for the whole CA thing lately is that it's a brilliant blend of a dozen sources (Candide, The Secret Agent, etc) that produced a dozen meanings (semi-autobiographical, metafictional, recasting of the Candide story in a steampunk era, career summation, career expansion, nod to the past while breaking from the past, bits and pieces of a whole new novel based on other novels, I could go on (wait! I just did go on!) Satire: the use of irony or sarcasm. Hmmm (hmmm part 2): Owen is discontent on the farm - leaves home for adventures - only to find contentment on a farm (or garden); just after singing "live it all again", Geddy sings "faith has failed me now, I choose to live" (implying that he was considering the alternative), the Pedlar's "What do you lack" is ironic because the thing Owen lacked, he actually started with - a simple life. My 2 pennies for today..

Did you notice the same idea in Candide? He had everything at the end that he had at the beginning (Pangloss, Cunegonde, add Martin and a new world view), but his perspective had changed. He was only missing the Baron and his cushy life in the Baron's castle. He had everything he started with and more.

 

I think your observation of irony is interesting. "What do you lack?"

 

I believe the answer is in something I first heard from Wayne Dyer (Gompers quotes him) and Neil paraphrased. "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change." In short: What do you lack? Anything you think is lacking.

 

Plays to the point that Merely Space made earlier in this thread.

 

[CygnusGal]

QUOTE (Animate @ Aug 8 2012, 09:37 AM)

QUOTE (spock @ Aug 7 2012, 08:48 PM) Hmmm, your thesis seems logical, but I'm still letting Candide sink in. Finished it a few days ago, left me with a "meh" feeling. My feel for the whole CA thing lately is that it's a brilliant blend of a dozen sources (Candide, The Secret Agent, etc) that produced a dozen meanings (semi-autobiographical, metafictional, recasting of the Candide story in a steampunk era, career summation, career expansion, nod to the past while breaking from the past, bits and pieces of a whole new novel based on other novels, I could go on (wait! I just did go on!) Satire: the use of irony or sarcasm. Hmmm (hmmm part 2): Owen is discontent on the farm - leaves home for adventures - only to find contentment on a farm (or garden); just after singing "live it all again", Geddy sings "faith has failed me now, I choose to live" (implying that he was considering the alternative), the Pedlar's "What do you lack" is ironic because the thing Owen lacked, he actually started with - a simple life. My 2 pennies for today.. Great thread, great analysis CygnusGal!   Spock- I agree with your analysis. CA lyrics are brilliant because in 12 songs, they express a lifetime of growth of an individual struggling with the discrepancies between faith and observed reality, and finally coming full circle back to simplistic truths via experience rather then blind acceptance.   It is interesting to compare and contrast the idea of returning to a simple life in CA with the same story in Subdivisions. On the surface, Subdivisions has a similar overall theme- leaving home to go for adventure to the city, then returning at the end to the quiet streets.   However, Subdivisions ends by implying that one would move back to the 'burbs as a result of failure- giving up the dream for small comforts or because instead of succeeding- they it are trapped in the rat race of an unfulfilling 9 - 5 (!The Watchmaker!) schedule.   Some will sell their dreams for small desires Or lose the race to rats Get caught in ticking traps And start to dream of somewhere To relax their restless flight....   Big difference, of course, is that the suburbs are not the garden. Thanks Animate.   Subdivisions! Excellent. I had not made that connection, but yes I can see a thematic similarity. They are kind of like gardens in that they "grow" youths who yearn to escape them.

[CygnusGal]

QUOTE (goose @ Aug 8 2012, 11:37 AM)

QUOTE (Animate @ Aug 8 2012, 08:37 AM) QUOTE (spock @ Aug 7 2012, 08:48 PM) Hmmm, your thesis seems logical, but I'm still letting Candide sink in. Finished it a few days ago, left me with a "meh" feeling. My feel for the whole CA thing lately is that it's a brilliant blend of a dozen sources (Candide, The Secret Agent, etc) that produced a dozen meanings (semi-autobiographical, metafictional, recasting of the Candide story in a steampunk era, career summation, career expansion, nod to the past while breaking from the past, bits and pieces of a whole new novel based on other novels, I could go on (wait! I just did go on!) Satire: the use of irony or sarcasm. Hmmm (hmmm part 2): Owen is discontent on the farm - leaves home for adventures - only to find contentment on a farm (or garden); just after singing "live it all again", Geddy sings "faith has failed me now, I choose to live" (implying that he was considering the alternative), the Pedlar's "What do you lack" is ironic because the thing Owen lacked, he actually started with - a simple life. My 2 pennies for today.. Great thread, great analysis CygnusGal!   Spock- I agree with your analysis. CA lyrics are brilliant because in 12 songs, they express a lifetime of growth of an individual struggling with the discrepancies between faith and observed reality, and finally coming full circle back to simplistic truths via experience rather then blind acceptance.   It is interesting to compare and contrast the idea of returning to a simple life in CA with the same story in Subdivisions. On the surface, Subdivisions has a similar overall theme- leaving home to go for adventure to the city, then returning at the end to the quiet streets.   However, Subdivisions ends by implying that one would move back to the 'burbs as a result of failure- giving up the dream for small comforts or because instead of succeeding- they it are trapped in the rat race of an unfulfilling 9 - 5 (!The Watchmaker!) schedule.   Some will sell their dreams for small desires Or lose the race to rats Get caught in ticking traps And start to dream of somewhere To relax their restless flight....   Big difference, of course, is that the suburbs are not the garden. The Garden is everywhere, and nowhere, depending on your choices. In the end, all we strive for, all we believe we create in terms of material wealth and career-centered accomplishment, is fleeting. Neil presents the measure of a fruitful life as this:   Did you love? Having loved, were you loved in return? Absolutely, goose. Good assessment. The only thing I would add is the *need* for the work. It is required in the garden. It is the only way to earn love.

[CygnusGal]

QUOTE (Amalgamation @ Aug 8 2012, 10:27 AM)

YouTube - Neil Peart: Clockwork Angels Interview It's a long listen, but if you haven't already, try it on for size.  He talks about the Proverbs notation, too. I could listen to his voice all day.

Thanks, Amalgamation. I'll give it a listen.

 

[CygnusGal]

[kentpilot]

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 7 2012, 06:25 PM)

QUOTE (CygnusGal @ Aug 6 2012, 05:21 PM) I have not seen the role of satire on the Clockwork Angels album addressed on another thread and I think it is significant to the CA narrative. Neil writes: "Time is still the infinite jest".  This statement leads my mind to the question: then what are finite jests?  Satire is an answer. I think Clockwork Angels (album) is a deep satire.  I believe satire adds more dimension and cohesion to the album - a wondrous work of fiction that reflects our own world. I think the "proverb" in CA song provides the deepest insight into satire: Lean not upon your own understanding Ignorance is well and truly blessed Trust in perfect love, and perfect planning Everything will turn out for the best. Geddy repeats: "And everything will turn out for the best." The "proverb" comes from an "In-N-Out" milkshake - that is a burger joint (The In-N-Out).  So, the CA universe philosophy is based, in part, on a "proverb" from a burger joint's milkshake?  It sounds silly, because a "proverb" coming from a burger joint is silly.  Satire. "The universe has a plan; all is for the best; some will be rewarded and the devil will take the rest; we are only human, it's not ours to understand; in a world where all must fail, Heaven's justice will prevail; believing what we're told until our final breath, while our loving Watchmaker loves us all to death." "And everything will turn out for the best." Familiar themes in our society and culture. "It is what it is - and whatever".  A rebuke of the naivety of the "proverb", but an awakening to its underlying reality.  "The Watchmaker keeps to his schemes/The Watchmaker has time up his sleeve", but now "the measure of a life is a measure of love and respect; in the fullness of time it's the only return that you expect".  The love is the reward is the work is the love...an on and on until time plays its final jest. Stunningly complex yet stunningly simple. Clockwork Angels (or Optimism).  A brilliant satire. Standard disclaimer: A reason why I think BU2B is shit. What kind of pretentious fuckhead writes sarcastic lyrics? Neil used to write much better. I think they are brilliant, are you offended by them?

[CygnusGal]

[HowItIs]

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 7 2012, 04:25 PM)

QUOTE (CygnusGal @ Aug 6 2012, 05:21 PM) I have not seen the role of satire on the Clockwork Angels album addressed on another thread and I think it is significant to the CA narrative. Neil writes: "Time is still the infinite jest".  This statement leads my mind to the question: then what are finite jests?  Satire is an answer. I think Clockwork Angels (album) is a deep satire.  I believe satire adds more dimension and cohesion to the album - a wondrous work of fiction that reflects our own world. I think the "proverb" in CA song provides the deepest insight into satire: Lean not upon your own understanding Ignorance is well and truly blessed Trust in perfect love, and perfect planning Everything will turn out for the best. Geddy repeats: "And everything will turn out for the best." The "proverb" comes from an "In-N-Out" milkshake - that is a burger joint (The In-N-Out).  So, the CA universe philosophy is based, in part, on a "proverb" from a burger joint's milkshake?  It sounds silly, because a "proverb" coming from a burger joint is silly.  Satire. "The universe has a plan; all is for the best; some will be rewarded and the devil will take the rest; we are only human, it's not ours to understand; in a world where all must fail, Heaven's justice will prevail; believing what we're told until our final breath, while our loving Watchmaker loves us all to death." "And everything will turn out for the best." Familiar themes in our society and culture. "It is what it is - and whatever".  A rebuke of the naivety of the "proverb", but an awakening to its underlying reality.  "The Watchmaker keeps to his schemes/The Watchmaker has time up his sleeve", but now "the measure of a life is a measure of love and respect; in the fullness of time it's the only return that you expect".  The love is the reward is the work is the love...an on and on until time plays its final jest. Stunningly complex yet stunningly simple. Clockwork Angels (or Optimism).  A brilliant satire. Standard disclaimer: A reason why I think BU2B is shit. What kind of pretentious fuckhead writes sarcastic lyrics? Neil used to write much better. It's interesting..... someone starts a thread which rewards a high degree of literary knowledge. Thoughtful and erudite, with a plainly expressed opinion which asks us to render our own. A thread that shows how well-read and savvy most of the TRF members are.   And then there's always someone who has to come along and show how much they aren't like that.   FWIW, I agree about the sarcastic lyrics of BU2B. That was what I loved most about it the first time I heard it.

[Merely Space]

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 7 2012, 06:25 PM)

QUOTE (CygnusGal @ Aug 6 2012, 05:21 PM) I have not seen the role of satire on the Clockwork Angels album addressed on another thread and I think it is significant to the CA narrative. Neil writes: "Time is still the infinite jest".  This statement leads my mind to the question: then what are finite jests?  Satire is an answer. I think Clockwork Angels (album) is a deep satire.  I believe satire adds more dimension and cohesion to the album - a wondrous work of fiction that reflects our own world. I think the "proverb" in CA song provides the deepest insight into satire: Lean not upon your own understanding Ignorance is well and truly blessed Trust in perfect love, and perfect planning Everything will turn out for the best. Geddy repeats: "And everything will turn out for the best." The "proverb" comes from an "In-N-Out" milkshake - that is a burger joint (The In-N-Out).  So, the CA universe philosophy is based, in part, on a "proverb" from a burger joint's milkshake?  It sounds silly, because a "proverb" coming from a burger joint is silly.  Satire. "The universe has a plan; all is for the best; some will be rewarded and the devil will take the rest; we are only human, it's not ours to understand; in a world where all must fail, Heaven's justice will prevail; believing what we're told until our final breath, while our loving Watchmaker loves us all to death." "And everything will turn out for the best." Familiar themes in our society and culture. "It is what it is - and whatever".  A rebuke of the naivety of the "proverb", but an awakening to its underlying reality.  "The Watchmaker keeps to his schemes/The Watchmaker has time up his sleeve", but now "the measure of a life is a measure of love and respect; in the fullness of time it's the only return that you expect".  The love is the reward is the work is the love...an on and on until time plays its final jest. Stunningly complex yet stunningly simple. Clockwork Angels (or Optimism).  A brilliant satire. Standard disclaimer: A reason why I think BU2B is shit. What kind of pretentious fuckhead writes sarcastic lyrics? Neil used to write much better. Oh, you know, Bob Dylan, Frank Zappa, McCartney & Lennon, Carly Simon, Billy Joel, The Who, The Police, Roger Waters. Pretentious fuckheads like them.

[Running Rebel]

[An Enemy Without]

[Mr. Not]

Edited August 11, 2012 by Mr. IsNot

[spock]

[CygnusGal]

[Tombstone Mountain]

QUOTE (CygnusGal @ Aug 11 2012, 08:57 AM)

Care to try again with a cogent point?

Thus spake Zarathustra...

 

 

Wow!

 

Don't stop the conversantion...you guys were onto something.

 

[An Enemy Without]