rushgoober Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I originally didn't like Caravan or BU2B. I thought the music in Caravan was cool, but the lyrics I found somewhat uninspiring, especially when compared to say Far Cry. BU2B I thought was really depressing and preachy atheism. This is excerpted from a conversation I had here a couple of years ago: QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 25 2010, 07:40 PM)QUOTE (New World Kid @ Aug 25 2010, 07:12 PM)So do you think that your perception of the two singles could change when put inside a greater body of work? It's possible. The weakest part of those songs for me is definitely the lyrics, so perhaps in a greater context, like if it was an album of some kind of journey from non-belief into one of belief and hope or some kind of spiritual SOMETHING, then BU2B might work in context. That said, I highly doubt that's the case, and even if by some miracle it is, the song by itself doesn't work. Well, now here we are a couple of years later, and I'm finally hearing it in context, and I gotta say, my opinion of both of these songs have improved dramatically. Part of it is I think a greatly improved mix on both of the songs, part of it is having enough familiarity with them that they feel like an old friend as opposed to an unfamiliar acquaintance, but mostly it's because I finally get the context. I really had no choice when they were released. I knew they were part of a a story, but since I had no story, I couldn't do anything but take them at face value. I think my new appreciation for these songs now goes beyond just liking them in context. Now that I have context, I even like them on their own. I honestly thought I could NEVER enjoy BU2B, but lately I've been listening to it and actually thinking it's a pretty great song - it's angry, it's heavy and it's intense - but it's real. I still don't like the philosophy of the song taken at face value, but in the end it did end up being "an album of some kind of journey from non-belief into one of belief and hope or some kind of spiritual SOMETHING." No, he doesn't take it to the level I would like him to, but at least he takes it somewhere positive and uplifting in the end, and that makes a huge difference for me. A few weeks ago I was hoping for 1 or 2 great songs on the album, hoping against hope for 3 of them. Now I feel like I started with 3 songs that I just wasn't able to appreciate yet. And then there's the rest of the album that clearly has even more great tracks. I never would have thought it possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iluvgeddy05 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I'm with you on this, goob. I am still skipping the first two tracks upon multiple listens just to learn the new songs, but when I heard Caravan and BU2B on the album, cleaned and tidied up, they were a lot stronger and I was pleasantly surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Congrats! They really are so good songs and I also think that the mix have done them very well. They fit right into the CA suite. I have never gone tired of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presto-digitation Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 BU2B is (still) arguably my favorite track, made better by the context of the album and an intro I enjoy. I like the remix of both songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merely Space Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I'm kind of the opposite. I liked 'em just fine upon initial release. I didn't think I could like them any more, really. I was wrong. Hearing them in context has really improved them as songs. I'm quite surprised by this. But I think it's a sign of the quality of the whole suite that every song is improved by its neighbors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielmclark Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I remember very specifically getting into arguments about BU2B well over a year or 18 months ago, and people freaking out because it was anti-religion, and I kept saying "but what if the Watchmaker is an actual character???" - and some people were so damn adamant that it wasn't and that it was just Neil being his religion hating self. "Tired of always being right, I am" - Yoda (Lego Star Wars) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gedneil Alpeart Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 9 2012, 04:28 PM) I originally didn't like Caravan or BU2B. I thought the music in Caravan was cool, but the lyrics I found somewhat uninspiring, especially when compared to say Far Cry. BU2B I thought was really depressing and preachy atheism. This is excerpted from a conversation I had here a couple of years ago: QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 25 2010, 07:40 PM)QUOTE (New World Kid @ Aug 25 2010, 07:12 PM)So do you think that your perception of the two singles could change when put inside a greater body of work? It's possible. The weakest part of those songs for me is definitely the lyrics, so perhaps in a greater context, like if it was an album of some kind of journey from non-belief into one of belief and hope or some kind of spiritual SOMETHING, then BU2B might work in context. That said, I highly doubt that's the case, and even if by some miracle it is, the song by itself doesn't work. Well, now here we are a couple of years later, and I'm finally hearing it in context, and I gotta say, my opinion of both of these songs have improved dramatically. Part of it is I think a greatly improved mix on both of the songs, part of it is having enough familiarity with them that they feel like an old friend as opposed to an unfamiliar acquaintance, but mostly it's because I finally get the context. I really had no choice when they were released. I knew they were part of a a story, but since I had no story, I couldn't do anything but take them at face value. I think my new appreciation for these songs now goes beyond just liking them in context. Now that I have context, I even like them on their own. I honestly thought I could NEVER enjoy BU2B, but lately I've been listening to it and actually thinking it's a pretty great song - it's angry, it's heavy and it's intense - but it's real. I still don't like the philosophy of the song taken at face value, but in the end it did end up being "an album of some kind of journey from non-belief into one of belief and hope or some kind of spiritual SOMETHING." No, he doesn't take it to the level I would like him to, but at least he takes it somewhere positive and uplifting in the end, and that makes a huge difference for me. A few weeks ago I was hoping for 1 or 2 great songs on the album, hoping against hope for 3 of them. Now I feel like I started with 3 songs that I just wasn't able to appreciate yet. And then there's the rest of the album that clearly has even more great tracks. I never would have thought it possible. Im so happy for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 QUOTE (danielmclark @ Jun 9 2012, 02:43 PM)I remember very specifically getting into arguments about BU2B well over a year or 18 months ago, and people freaking out because it was anti-religion, and I kept saying "but what if the Watchmaker is an actual character???" - and some people were so damn adamant that it wasn't and that it was just Neil being his religion hating self. "Tired of always being right, I am" - Yoda (Lego Star Wars) I'm still not convinced that The Watchmaker is "just a character" and that it's not a religion-bashing song. Yes it's a story, and the story has characters, but obviously the protagonist of the story is ultimately Neil. The story arc too clearly mirrors his own philosophies to think otherwise. That said, couching his philosophies in the context of a story helps, and the fact that it ends with a strong measure of redemption helps tremendously in me not taking it as intensely as I did out of context. The key to the story's outcome lies in the text that comes prior to The Garden: QUOTE LONG AGO I READ A STORY FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE about a character named Candide. He also survived a harrowing series of misadventures and tragedies, then settled on a farm near Constantinople. Listening to a philosophical rant, Candide replied, "That is all very well, but now we must tend our garden." I have now arrived at that point in my own story. There is a metaphorical garden in the acts and attitudes of a person's life, and the treasures of that garden are love and respect. I have come to realize that the gathering of love and respect - from others and for myself - has been the real quest of my life. "Now we must tend our garden." Firstly, that comes after Wish Them Well, which seems to be about forgiveness and letting the past go. Here, he seems to be saying that any philosophies or beliefs that anyone would want to thrust upon us are all well and good, but in the end we have to take care of ourselves and our sphere of influence the way that makes sense to us regardless of any outside authority. He MAY still think that those of faith are mindless sheep following the herd, but in this greater philosophical context, it's easy to forgive and appreciate it as one perspective on a journey of discovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly D Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) The remixing of "Caravan" and "BU2B" is amazing. So many more layers and the only proper word that I can think of is "sprightly" Edit: And of course it's great to hear with all of the new songs to go along with them and "tie the room together" if you will. . . Edited June 9, 2012 by Kelly D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Kelly D @ Jun 9 2012, 03:01 PM)The remixing of "Caravan" and "BU2B" is amazing. So many more layers and the only proper word that I can think of is "sprightly" Edit: And of course it's great to hear with all of the new songs to go along with them and "tie the room together" if you will. . . http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e85/rushgoober6/aaab.jpg Edited June 10, 2012 by rushgoober Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shreddy Lee Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I'm glad to hear this Goobs, and I'm happy for you that you have been able to come to a new appreciation of these songs. Goober liking BU2B? I think I just saw a pig fly by my window... I still don't understand why your enjoyment of the songs seems to hinge so much on whether or not they express a particular view that you wish they would express, or that you hold yourself. You prefer the message to be more optimistic and uplifting, and that it would end in some kind of embrace of faith or spirituality - that's fine - but I don't get why it not going in that specific direction should ever inhibit your enjoyment of any song in any way. That's just not the story he was telling, and it shouldn't be penalized because it's not the way you wished it would be, it should be evaluated on its own merits. But that's a conversation we've had before, and I know we'll just have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 QUOTE (Shreddy Lee @ Jun 9 2012, 03:28 PM) I'm glad to hear this Goobs, and I'm happy for you that you have been able to come to a new appreciation of these songs. Goober liking BU2B? I think I just saw a pig fly by my window... I still don't understand why your enjoyment of the songs seems to hinge so much on whether or not they express a particular view that you wish they would express, or that you hold yourself. You prefer the message to be more optimistic and uplifting, and that it would end in some kind of embrace of faith or spirituality - that's fine - but I don't get why it not going in that specific direction should ever inhibit your enjoyment of any song in any way. That's just not the story he was telling, and it shouldn't be penalized because it's not the way you wished it would be, it should be evaluated on its own merits. But that's a conversation we've had before, and I know we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's not him not sharing the same beliefs is me, it's him putting them down. I don't like preachiness on either side of the issue. I just don't like it in the context of a Rush song. That said, the context here makes all the difference. At least it's enough to allow me to appreciate the song without that getting in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
presto123 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 This is a thread that never in a million years did I think goober would be making after the record came out. Wow. Glad to hear it goober. Have you settled on a fav track yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s_b_g Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 i loved both originally - but the remixes on the album and put into context in the album make them even more amazing for me d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 QUOTE (presto123 @ Jun 9 2012, 03:39 PM) This is a thread that never in a million years did I think goober would be making after the record came out. Wow. Glad to hear it goober. Have you settled on a fav track yet? At the moment it's still the title track. That could be surpassed by The Garden at some point, or another song or two that could be dark horse contenders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digitallware Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 caravan and bu2b are the strongest two "short" songs on the album the rest don't compare in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimoGuitarist Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 how could you not like those 2 songs? They were both amazing when I heard them, and are still the best songs on clockwork angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slack jaw gaze Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) I suggest reading Candide or a least reading the plot summary. (If you have a Kindle, it's a free download.) The "All is for the best" line is straight from the story and is repeated a dozen times or so. I already liked BU2B, but the new intro, remix, and context elevates it considerably IMO. The "tending the garden" line is the very last line of the story. Edited June 9, 2012 by Slack jaw gaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkingBig Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Caravan is a great opener to the journey. BU2B puts us in the frame of mind of main character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly D Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 9 2012, 06:03 PM) QUOTE (Kelly D @ Jun 9 2012, 03:01 PM)The remixing of "Caravan" and "BU2B" is amazing. So many more layers and the only proper word that I can think of is "sprightly" Edit: And of course it's great to hear with all of the new songs to go along with them and "tie the room together" if you will. . . http://cityrag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/where-the-hell-are-we.jpg ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gedneil Alpeart Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 9 2012, 09:28 PM) Caravan is a great opener to the journey. BU2B puts us in the frame of mind of main character. Very well put and very true. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeduck Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (Kelly D @ Jun 9 2012, 09:48 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 9 2012, 06:03 PM) QUOTE (Kelly D @ Jun 9 2012, 03:01 PM)The remixing of "Caravan" and "BU2B" is amazing. So many more layers and the only proper word that I can think of is "sprightly" Edit: And of course it's great to hear with all of the new songs to go along with them and "tie the room together" if you will. . . http://cityrag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/where-the-hell-are-we.jpg ??? It's probably a picture of him dressed as Captain Beatty from Fahrenheit 451, burning a pile of Vapor Trails CDs. Goobs is obsessed with the works of Ray Bradbury. I think Ray's death has sent him over the edge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly D Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 9 2012, 10:51 PM) QUOTE (Kelly D @ Jun 9 2012, 09:48 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 9 2012, 06:03 PM) QUOTE (Kelly D @ Jun 9 2012, 03:01 PM)The remixing of "Caravan" and "BU2B" is amazing. So many more layers and the only proper word that I can think of is "sprightly" Edit: And of course it's great to hear with all of the new songs to go along with them and "tie the room together" if you will. . . http://cityrag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/where-the-hell-are-we.jpg ??? It's probably a picture of him dressed as Captain Beatty from Fahrenheit 451, burning a pile of Vapor Trails CDs. Goobs is obsessed with the works of Ray Bradbury. I think Ray's death has sent him over the edge! Pourin' one out for Mr. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeduck Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (Kelly D @ Jun 9 2012, 10:03 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 9 2012, 10:51 PM) QUOTE (Kelly D @ Jun 9 2012, 09:48 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 9 2012, 06:03 PM) QUOTE (Kelly D @ Jun 9 2012, 03:01 PM)The remixing of "Caravan" and "BU2B" is amazing. So many more layers and the only proper word that I can think of is "sprightly" Edit: And of course it's great to hear with all of the new songs to go along with them and "tie the room together" if you will. . . http://cityrag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/where-the-hell-are-we.jpg ??? It's probably a picture of him dressed as Captain Beatty from Fahrenheit 451, burning a pile of Vapor Trails CDs. Goobs is obsessed with the works of Ray Bradbury. I think Ray's death has sent him over the edge! Pourin' one out for Mr. B Aye... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
losingit2k Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Both songs have gone under the knife and come out looking gorgeous and extremely tight! BU2B has been turned into BU-DD! Edited June 10, 2012 by losingit2k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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