Roadrunner's expectations.

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:50 AM)

I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore.... Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally. So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers. it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels.

Piracy has nothing to do with it. People stopped buying Michael Jackson albums a long, long time ago. You've been sucked in by RIAA propaganda. They aren't losing millions of sales due to piracy, that's a lie.

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 07:25 AM)

QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:50 AM) I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore.... Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally. So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers. it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels. Piracy has nothing to do with it. People stopped buying Michael Jackson albums a long, long time ago. You've been sucked in by RIAA propaganda. They aren't losing millions of sales due to piracy, that's a lie. Well, we've gone through this before but "Piracy has nothing to do with it" is just silly. Of course you can argue that the claims are way over-inflated and that's almost certainly true but it's simply way too easy for almost anybody to download unlimited amounts of music (or movies or any electronic media, games, etc.) with almost no risk whatsoever for it not to have any effect. There's no way that isn't at least part of the problem.

[Animate]

[snowdog2112]

[druid13]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 08:25 AM)

QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:50 AM) I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore.... Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally. So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers. it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels. Piracy has nothing to do with it. People stopped buying Michael Jackson albums a long, long time ago. You've been sucked in by RIAA propaganda. They aren't losing millions of sales due to piracy, that's a lie. Piracy has nothing to do with it...?   LOL...right.   Ever talk to some of the people who put out material like drum instructional DVDs...? Barely worth the time to do it because it gets pirated and sold....and they sold much smaller numbers to a far more boutique audience to begin with.   I am in no way sticking up for any claims (was not even aware the RIAA made them) of someone else...its just simple observation...the "big selling" albums are not selling big anymore.   And my scenerio while being a joke certainly would draw a TON of interest were it even possible to happen in the 1st place. Houston's death made her stuff go to number 1 again for awhile...I can only imagine what the Ghost of Whitney and Michael would cause the masses to do.   Bands make their money from touring...not album sales anymore.

[Animate]

[snowdog2112]

[Presto-digitation]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 08:25 AM)

QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:50 AM) I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore.... Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally. So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers. it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels. Piracy has nothing to do with it. People stopped buying Michael Jackson albums a long, long time ago. You've been sucked in by RIAA propaganda. They aren't losing millions of sales due to piracy, that's a lie. Sure they are. I know people who before the internet bought vinyl, cassette, and CD like everyone else (some friends also dub the occasional album)....and now many of those friends haven't purchased a SINGLE bit of music in 10 years. Buyers before, illegal downloaders now. And I'm talking many people I know. In fact, I'm one of the few sad bastards who still rushes to the CD store on the day of release or orders a product from Amazon.com.   My son owns about 10 CDs (which he wouldn't if I hadn't bought them for him) and has about 15,000 tunes on his iTunes. I'll give you one guess how he obtained them and it wasn't on an iTunes card.

[Lerxster]

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE (Presto-digitation @ Apr 26 2012, 08:17 AM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 08:25 AM) QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:50 AM) I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore.... Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally. So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers. it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels. Piracy has nothing to do with it. People stopped buying Michael Jackson albums a long, long time ago. You've been sucked in by RIAA propaganda. They aren't losing millions of sales due to piracy, that's a lie. Sure they are. I know people who before the internet bought vinyl, cassette, and CD like everyone else (some friends also dub the occasional album)....and now many of those friends haven't purchased a SINGLE bit of music in 10 years. Buyers before, illegal downloaders now. And I'm talking many people I know. In fact, I'm one of the few sad bastards who still rushes to the CD store on the day of release or orders a product from Amazon.com.   My son owns about 10 CDs (which he wouldn't if I hadn't bought them for him) and has about 15,000 tunes on his iTunes. I'll give you one guess how he obtained them and it wasn't on an iTunes card. I used similar examples before and was told anecdotal evidence doen't matter, so good luck.

[Lerxster]

QUOTE (Presto-digitation @ Apr 26 2012, 09:17 AM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 08:25 AM) QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:50 AM) I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore.... Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally. So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers. it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels. Piracy has nothing to do with it. People stopped buying Michael Jackson albums a long, long time ago. You've been sucked in by RIAA propaganda. They aren't losing millions of sales due to piracy, that's a lie. Sure they are. I know people who before the internet bought vinyl, cassette, and CD like everyone else (some friends also dub the occasional album)....and now many of those friends haven't purchased a SINGLE bit of music in 10 years. Buyers before, illegal downloaders now. And I'm talking many people I know. In fact, I'm one of the few sad bastards who still rushes to the CD store on the day of release or orders a product from Amazon.com.   My son owns about 10 CDs (which he wouldn't if I hadn't bought them for him) and has about 15,000 tunes on his iTunes. I'll give you one guess how he obtained them and it wasn't on an iTunes card. Hey, sad bastard here.. checking in

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 07:51 AM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 08:25 AM) QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:50 AM) I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore.... Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally. So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers. it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels. Piracy has nothing to do with it. People stopped buying Michael Jackson albums a long, long time ago. You've been sucked in by RIAA propaganda. They aren't losing millions of sales due to piracy, that's a lie. Piracy has nothing to do with it...?   LOL...right.   Ever talk to some of the people who put out material like drum instructional DVDs...? Barely worth the time to do it because it gets pirated and sold....and they sold much smaller numbers to a far more boutique audience to begin with.   I am in no way sticking up for any claims (was not even aware the RIAA made them) of someone else...its just simple observation...the "big selling" albums are not selling big anymore.   And my scenerio while being a joke certainly would draw a TON of interest were it even possible to happen in the 1st place. Houston's death made her stuff go to number 1 again for awhile...I can only imagine what the Ghost of Whitney and Michael would cause the masses to do.   Bands make their money from touring...not album sales anymore. Do a little research. Go to a few sources that aren't funded by the RIAA, MPAA or other entertainment conglomerates. You'll learn things like, they actually have no idea how many things have been downloaded. No idea. The numbers they put out there are completely made up. Things like, they once tried to go to court against LimeWire and claim damages in excess of the entire world's GDP - $75 trillion dollars. True.   They have no idea what the real effect of piracy is, but one thing is proven year after year: people are still buying millions upon millions of albums every year, millions of songs digitally, and the corporations are still turning billion dollar profits year after year.   To suggest that an album that is only selling half a million copies would have sold 7 million if not for piracy is fking ludicrous.   Jackson and Houston have been irrelevant for a long, long time. If they weren't dead, nobody would care if they put out new material, together or otherwise. Whatever they did would probably sell about as well as anything else they've done in the past 10 years, a million or two copies, and certain people would probably [incorrectly] blame it on piracy.

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (Presto-digitation @ Apr 26 2012, 08:17 AM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 08:25 AM) QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:50 AM) I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore.... Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally. So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers. it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels. Piracy has nothing to do with it. People stopped buying Michael Jackson albums a long, long time ago. You've been sucked in by RIAA propaganda. They aren't losing millions of sales due to piracy, that's a lie. Sure they are. I know people who before the internet bought vinyl, cassette, and CD like everyone else (some friends also dub the occasional album)....and now many of those friends haven't purchased a SINGLE bit of music in 10 years. Buyers before, illegal downloaders now. And I'm talking many people I know. In fact, I'm one of the few sad bastards who still rushes to the CD store on the day of release or orders a product from Amazon.com.   My son owns about 10 CDs (which he wouldn't if I hadn't bought them for him) and has about 15,000 tunes on his iTunes. I'll give you one guess how he obtained them and it wasn't on an iTunes card. So you're saying your son would have bought all 15,000 of those songs if not for the readily available avenue of illegal downloads?

[danielmclark]

Incidentally, the reason I get all pissy about people being so goddamn wrong about piracy is that it's the piracy propaganda that the music and movie industries use to push through laws like SOPA, PIPA and the newest one, CISPA.

 

So yeah, if you think censoring the internet and allowing US government control over everything is a nifty idea, by all means, keep spreading the FUD about piracy.

[Lost In Xanadu]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 09:36 AM)

Incidentally, the reason I get all pissy about people being so goddamn wrong about piracy is that it's the piracy propaganda that the music and movie industries use to push through laws like SOPA, PIPA and the newest one, CISPA. So yeah, if you think censoring the internet and allowing US government control over everything is a nifty idea, by all means, keep spreading the FUD about piracy.

[Snaked]

QUOTE (Lost In Xanadu @ Apr 26 2012, 10:37 AM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 09:36 AM) Incidentally, the reason I get all pissy about people being so goddamn wrong about piracy is that it's the piracy propaganda that the music and movie industries use to push through laws like SOPA, PIPA and the newest one, CISPA. So yeah, if you think censoring the internet and allowing US government control over everything is a nifty idea, by all means, keep spreading the FUD about piracy. SOPA and PIPA wernt "pushed through" they were both buried. CISPA in it's current form would be veto'd.     They're non-factors in this arguement.

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 08:36 AM)

Incidentally, the reason I get all pissy about people being so goddamn wrong about piracy is that it's the piracy propaganda that the music and movie industries use to push through laws like SOPA, PIPA and the newest one, CISPA. So yeah, if you think censoring the internet and allowing US government control over everything is a nifty idea, by all means, keep spreading the FUD about piracy.

I get that and understand your concerns and I've grown to respect most of your posts since we initially argued about this stuff, I just think that the truth is somewhere in the middle. You're doing the same thing they are just to make a point. You made a definitive statement that "Piracy has nothing to do with it" and then said "You'll learn things like, they actually have no idea how many things have been downloaded". So how can you say piracy has nothing to do with it when you have no idea how much has been illegally downloaded? They clearly exaggerate losses but at the same time piracy has to have a significant effect. You can't have a business model where your customers have the choice for example between buying an audio file for a dollar a song or else downloading an unlimited amount of songs for free with no risk and have it make no difference to the bottom line which one people choose. That's just non-sensical.

 

This:

 

So you're saying your son would have bought all 15,000 of those songs if not for the readily available avenue of illegal downloads?

 

...is again just not thought out. You're saying that since they can't buy everything they wouldn't buy anything. I own two vehicles myself. But if I could simply take everything at the car lot I wanted for free I'd have 50 and wouldn't have even bought the 2 I have. So you're saying because people can download way more than they can afford that it means they wouldn't even buy what they could afford if there was no other option. It's just a bizarre economic model where your business makes the same amount of money whether your customers choose to buy your products or not.

Edited April 26, 2012 by snowdog2112

[EmotionDetector]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 10:28 AM)

QUOTE (Presto-digitation @ Apr 26 2012, 08:17 AM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 08:25 AM) QUOTE (druid13 @ Apr 26 2012, 06:50 AM) I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore.... Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally. So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers. it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels. Piracy has nothing to do with it. People stopped buying Michael Jackson albums a long, long time ago. You've been sucked in by RIAA propaganda. They aren't losing millions of sales due to piracy, that's a lie. Sure they are. I know people who before the internet bought vinyl, cassette, and CD like everyone else (some friends also dub the occasional album)....and now many of those friends haven't purchased a SINGLE bit of music in 10 years. Buyers before, illegal downloaders now. And I'm talking many people I know. In fact, I'm one of the few sad bastards who still rushes to the CD store on the day of release or orders a product from Amazon.com.   My son owns about 10 CDs (which he wouldn't if I hadn't bought them for him) and has about 15,000 tunes on his iTunes. I'll give you one guess how he obtained them and it wasn't on an iTunes card. So you're saying your son would have bought all 15,000 of those songs if not for the readily available avenue of illegal downloads? Well yeah...you wouldn't have a choice would you?   If you love a song/album, you'll need to go out and purchase it. I know that was always my avenue...if I wanted a CD, I'd go out and buy it. Simple as that.   Like P-D, I know TONS of people who used to purchase CD's (and DVD's), and haven't bought one now in over 10 years. They instead download every song, album, and movie that they want without ever paying a dime for it (but hey, good for them...they're saving thousands probably).   Now, I'm not saying it's the sole reason for the dropping album sales trend, but it certainly accounts for it. You have to admit...it ain't helping.   Do you seriously not know people who used to be avid buyers of albums/movies that no longer purchase any due to downloading?

[Gilbertk]

Nickelback's last album sold over 945,000 copies and their 2005 "All the Right Reasons" album has sold over 11 million (That's 8x Platinum in America, x7 in Canada). Both albums were on Roadrunner.

 

Fun fact.

 

Edited April 26, 2012 by Gilbertk

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (Snaked @ Apr 26 2012, 09:05 AM)

QUOTE (Lost In Xanadu @ Apr 26 2012, 10:37 AM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 09:36 AM) Incidentally, the reason I get all pissy about people being so goddamn wrong about piracy is that it's the piracy propaganda that the music and movie industries use to push through laws like SOPA, PIPA and the newest one, CISPA. So yeah, if you think censoring the internet and allowing US government control over everything is a nifty idea, by all means, keep spreading the FUD about piracy. SOPA and PIPA wernt "pushed through" they were both buried. CISPA in it's current form would be veto'd.     They're non-factors in this arguement. They're relevant because they identify the course that the industries are on. You don't really think they're going to stop trying, do you? They've got billions of dollars to throw at this, they're not going to stop.

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 26 2012, 09:12 AM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 26 2012, 08:36 AM) Incidentally, the reason I get all pissy about people being so goddamn wrong about piracy is that it's the piracy propaganda that the music and movie industries use to push through laws like SOPA, PIPA and the newest one, CISPA. So yeah, if you think censoring the internet and allowing US government control over everything is a nifty idea, by all means, keep spreading the FUD about piracy. I get that and understand your concerns and I've grown to respect most of your posts since we initially argued about this stuff, I just think that the truth is somewhere in the middle. You're doing the same thing they are just to make a point. You made a definitive statement that "Piracy has nothing to do with it" and then said "You'll learn things like, they actually have no idea how many things have been downloaded". So how can you say piracy has nothing to do with it when you have no idea how much has been illegally downloaded? They clearly exaggerate losses but at the same time piracy has to have a significant effect. You can't have a business model where your customers have the choice for example between buying an audio file for a dollar a song or else downloading an unlimited amount of songs for free with no risk and have it make no difference to the bottom line which one people choose. That's just non-sensical.   This:   So you're saying your son would have bought all 15,000 of those songs if not for the readily available avenue of illegal downloads?   ...is again just not thought out. You're saying that since they can't buy everything they wouldn't buy anything. I own two vehicles myself. But if I could simply take everything at the car lot I wanted for free I'd have 50 and wouldn't have even bought the 2 I have. So you're saying because people can download way more than they can afford that it means they wouldn't even buy what they could afford if there was no other option. It's just a bizarre economic model where your business makes the same amount of money whether your customers choose to buy your products or not. To the first, yes, perhaps I was exaggerating by saying nothing to do with it. I'm not saying nobody has ever downloaded something they would have otherwise bought. I can't imagine anyone is dumb enough to make that argument. But I was referring to claims like LimeWire being sued for $75 trillion and that an album that is only selling a few hundred thousand copies would otherwise be selling upwards of 7 million. Those are both ridiculous claims. The first, for obvious reasons (I hope!). The second, because other artists are selling multi-platinum albums. It happens quite a lot, actually. Then you look at the profits these companies are posting - in the billions - and you just have to figure that piracy can't be that much of an issue, otherwise... what? The record companies would be posting even more massive profits? That's not realistic.   You may remember I mentioned the 90's CD boom as a prime reason for the artificial industry profits that led to a "loss" of income in the 00's. When people finished replacing their cassettes with CDs, sales dropped off. Naturally. It happens with every format change.   To the second point, I said all 15,000 songs that his son has. Not some. All. Of course he would have bought some. Again, I'm not saying nobody has ever downloaded something they would have otherwise bought. But not to the tune of 15,000 tracks. Not even a fraction of that, I'd wager.

[Del_Duio]

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 03:00 PM)

Ok, I'm old, but I swear to you I've only heard of three of those. When I grew up rock music was bands like Van Halen and Def Leppard that were selling 10 million-plus. Now we've got Elbow and Mumford and Sons and 4 of the top 10 sellers are in the freaking 200,000s. Not a single platinum rock album and only 1 that sold over half a million. Rock is truly dead.

I'm old too, I haven't heard of half of those either.

 

The internet that lets us find other Rush fans to talk about possible CA sales figures is the same internet a ton of people use to get their music from for the most part.

 

You'll buy the album, I'll buy the album, but we're a dying breed I hate to say.

[Del_Duio]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Apr 25 2012, 03:47 PM)

QUOTE (Lost In Xanadu @ Apr 25 2012, 04:44 PM) Florence and the Machine was on SNL one night. That explains it.   SNL hasn't been funny for 15 years. Respectfully disagree. There was a big stretch where it wasn't all that great but the current cast is pretty awesome and Kristen Wiig may be the funniest woman the show has EVER had.*                 *IMO!

[djwilbur]

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 04:27 PM)

QUOTE (grand phil-nale @ Apr 25 2012, 02:54 PM) QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 03:51 PM) QUOTE (grand phil-nale @ Apr 25 2012, 02:25 PM) I doubt S&A sold much over 200,00 copies if that. More than likely RR is budgeting the marketing for CA with a reasonable sales number. Rush is by far their biggest investment minus Nickelback. So it makes sense for them to heavily promote CA. No, it's closer to 400,000-450,000 now. Source? Well, there is no hard source for a lot of this stuff but just piecing together things I've read on RIAB with the fact that it sold 93,000 the first week according to Billboard, there's basically half of your 200,000 claim right there. And hey, I know that sales drop off dramatically after the first week especially for bands like Rush but there's no way in hell it sold as many copies the first week as it has in the 260 weeks combined since then. Plus there are quotes like this around in various places and even this article is apparently fairly old:   Their 2007 album Snakes & Arrows reflects both traits, and it is no fluke that it went on to sell an estimated 611,000 copies worldwide, establishing the band as one of Canada's leading exports.   http://skyarts.sky.com/rush-snakes-arrows-live-in-rotterdam   I think it's safe to say that 2/3 of those were in the U.S. according to Soundscan...Snakes and Arrows has sold 323,000 in the USA, this includes physical and digital.   also the Caravan "single" released June 1st, 2010 has sold 7,824 units to date...not sure if they include the cd single sold at shows though, but figure thats the downloads from Itunes...not that high...   so this is to date as of yesterday....

[metaldad]

 

A big reason albums don't sell is because people Steal them .

Another big thing is, a Lot people don't want new music from their fav bands anymore so they don't buy it. I have 4 best friends i grew up with , have known them each for over 30 years . Huge Van Halen fans , only 1 of them got the new album . That is just the way it is now. If a band sells 20,000 copies in it's first week of release , that is a huge thing for them. Back in the day , you were dropped if you sold that little. Rush did some good biz last year but how much of it was all the old music, i bet most of it . CA will sell the first week or 2 and then ? Nothing . Bet your ass on it . The Time Machine dvd was number 54 on the charts ? Who thinks that is good ? Not me . I think the S&A dvd did much better , top 10 If you think they are going to sell a million or even 500,000 copies of CA , you need a muscle relaxer and a nap . People would rather go to Youtube to watch a video than get their fat ass down to Best Buy and pay money for it .