The Weapon vs. Fade To Grey

[drbirdsong]

About ten years ago I used to visit a Rush website (can't remember the name) and this guy had a lot of rare items. One of the songs he had available for download was the studio version of The Weapon from the 12" single. This version had the Count Floyd intro and was a bit shorter than the album track. At that point I had no idea that there was a studio version. A hard drive crash or two later and I no longer have it. Whenever I find that site again and go to it there is a message saying that it was taken down at the request of Atlantic Records. It's a real shame because there were a lot of rarities and radio/single edits and things for the curious. For all I know that person may be on this forum now...

 

Anyway, back to The Weapon. I search for that 12" version every now and then online and I still seek out the vinyl, but it is a true rarity. I was looking today and I read that the song has a striking similarity to a song by Visage called Fade To Grey. You can find an mp3 of the song in about 5 seconds with Google. I would supply a link, but I think that might be against the rules.

 

There was a discussion of some Journey song that sounded like a Rush song (or maybe it was the other way around) a few weeks back. I had to strain to hear any similarity. They sounded so not alike that I have forgotten what they were. The Weapon and Fade To Grey, however, is a very different story.

 

Take a moment and listen to both. I have never heard of Visage, but if they had ever sued Rush over such a blatant rip off I think I would have had to side with them. There's influence and then there is this.

 

Give Fade To Grey a listen if you have a moment and you be the judge.

Edited August 9, 2011 by drbirdsong

[ReRushed]

I hear nothing blatant, absolutely nothing. I guess the synthesizer sequencing is similar, but you can probably find hundreds of New Wave songs with that similarity, much like Blues songs with blues chord progressions. The melody and the rhythm, both sound very different to me.

[theredtamasrule]

You're just hearing the chord progression in that cheesy 80's synth, similar tones but the songs are nothing alike.

[Scars]

There are similarities, but if Rush were to get "sued" it would probably get immediately thrown out. A court would have to prove that Rush knowingly ripped-off that song. A constant pulsing synth bassline exists in far more songs than just those two (which is really the only distinct similarity). Aside of that, the drum work between the two songs are completely different. Yes they both involve a relatively similar constant closed-and-open hi-hat pattern sound-wise (but again, so do a million other songs), but The Weapon clearly has a far different--and more complex-pattern.

 

Everything else about that song sounds NOTHING like The Weapon. Once the vocals kick in on the Visage song, it loses pretty much any similarities it had to the Rush song. Now if Fade to Grey had a similar vocal delivery as The Weapon, then it would be kind of a different story...

Edited August 9, 2011 by Scars

[Ancient Ways]

This claim is a bit of a

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f128/Stopfalling/StretchArmstrong.jpg

[GeddyRulz]

The Journey VS. Rush thing is this: Neal Schon has claimed for years that Rush's "Tom Sawyer" is a rip-off of the Journey song "Nickel and Dime."

 

We hemmed-and-hawed over it here at TRF, and some say there are parts of "Nickel and Dime" which sound like "Tom Sawyer" and, actually, other parts which sound like "Xanadu"!

 

 

 

There are such things as coincidences. There are only so many musical notes and so many ways to re-combine them, especially in hard rock music where you often use only the pentatonic scale.

 

If you want to hear a big ripoff (to my ears), check out the beginning of the Jayhawks "Waiting For the Sun" and tell me it doesn't sound like Tom Petty stole the riff for "Mary Jane's Last Dance."

Edited August 9, 2011 by GeddyRulz

[tontonfranck]

"Fade to grey" was a huge hit in Europe back in 1980 and the symbol of the synthetic pop of these times.

 

I think Rush knew the song and I wouldn't be that much surprised if it was somewhere in their heads when they recodred "the weapon" even if in the en the two tracks are completely different

[GeddyRulz]

Okay, I listened to Visage "Fade to Grey" on YouTube.

 

Does it sound like "The Weapon"? Yes, but so does a lot of other 1980s synth stuff. It's a techno "throbbing pulse" sound, commonly used beneath New Wave songs. If Rush is guilty of appropriating anything, it's the keyboard sounds of the New Wave... and we already knew they were going for that during their "keyboard phase."

Edited August 9, 2011 by GeddyRulz

[lerxt1990]

I also hear shades of Red Sector A. Sounds, synths, beats.... a lot of things sound like each other.

 

I just heard one the other day, the obvious Van Halen ripoff of Led Zeppelin in Ice Cream Man.. half way through, the drum beat from Whole Lotta Love....

[Mara]

Midge Ure and Billy Currie both were front and center in both Ultravox and Visage; they did the bulk of the composition for Visage (Steve Strange was no musician). Neil cites Ultravox as an influence on Rush's synth use in the 80's, so sure, I have no doubt Fade To Grey got a few listens. Edited August 9, 2011 by Mara

[circumstantial tree]

I hear "heart of glass" by Blondie in "The Weapon". A bit of disco for Rush.

 

Of course, Rush totally ripped off the theme to Young and the Restless when they wrote "Between the Wheels".

[Phantom]

It's a stretch to be certain.

 

There are countless cases like this..

 

Huey Lewis's " I want a new Drug " and Ray Parker Jr's " Ghostbusters " comes to mind.

 

 

[ColdFireYYZ]

I don't hear it, but this one's obvious:

 

[Mara]

QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Aug 9 2011, 05:47 PM)

I hear "heart of glass" by Blondie in "The Weapon". A bit of disco for Rush. Of course, Rush totally ripped off the theme to Young and the Restless when they wrote "Between the Wheels".

I thought they ripped off Nadia Comaneci? You mean that's not really "Nadia's Theme"?

[LeaveMyThingAlone]

Very interesting stuff

 

I just listened to Journey's Nickel and Dime and there is a part in it that is extremely similar to the end of Tom Sawyer, no doubt about it. But to say Rush "ripped it off from Journey" is a huge stretch.

 

I hear a slight similarity between The Weapon and Fade to grey, but again huge stretch

 

As long as we're talking about bands that have ripped off parts of other songs, take a listen to Green Day's Jesus of Suburbia. From about the 7:52 mark, Billy Joe pretty much plays the exact Riff that Social Distortion plays at the beginning of Ring of Fire

 

 

-Green Day-Jesus of Suburbia 7:52 mark

-Social Distortion-Ring of Fire 0:05 mark

 

Check it out-pretty funny!

Edited August 9, 2011 by LeaveMyThingAlone

[Lerxster]

QUOTE (drbirdsong @ Aug 9 2011, 02:36 PM)

I would supply a link, but I think that might be against the rules.

 

Who's rules? Links make it convenient for the reader.

 

QUOTE

Give Fade To Grey a listen if you have a moment and you be the judge.

 

Yeah, I think I heard some Weapon. I think I heard some Yoko too.

[drbirdsong]

Good points everyone. I have to admit that I started this thread after comparing the beginnings of the songs. After a short while the comparison fades away.

 

I remember reading a review of Hold Your Fire where the reviewer compared just about every song to someone else and said that Rush was wearing their influences on their sleeves. I never felt that way so the this similarity was a bit of a surprise.

[1 of the 7]

I made the comparison in the Synth Similarities thread a couple of months ago, so it definitely stands out, but I don't want to make a claim much beyond that...

[lerxt1990]

QUOTE (LeaveMyThingAlone @ Aug 9 2011, 07:33 PM)

Very interesting stuff I just listened to Journey's Nickel and Dime and there is a part in it that is extremely similar to the end of Tom Sawyer, no doubt about it. But to say Rush "ripped it off from Journey" is a huge stretch. I hear a slight similarity between The Weapon and Fade to grey, but again huge stretch As long as we're talking about bands that have ripped off parts of other songs, take a listen to Green Day's Jesus of Suburbia. From about the 7:52 mark, Billy Joe pretty much plays the exact Riff that Social Distortion plays at the beginning of Ring of Fire -Green Day-Jesus of Suburbia 7:52 mark -Social Distortion-Ring of Fire 0:05 mark Check it out-pretty funny!

That riff is Johnny Cash's ring of fire; obviously SD is cover, and GDs riff, very very very close, just slightly different second note it seems...

 

the original

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It7107ELQvY&feature=related

[greyfriar]

Thr rhythm guitar at the end of 'The Necromancer' sounds like 'Won't Get Fooled Again' by The Who. Exactly the same three chords.

[Invisible To Telescopic Eye]

I listened to both Fade To Grey and Nickel and Dime and found similarities to in both.

 

The synth in Face To Grey is very similar to The Weapon and I think and I feel they are almost interchangeable....almost.

 

As for Nickel And Dime, I was introduced to Journey in about 1980 and never heard much of their pre Steve Perry stuff. That song rocks!!!! There a few similarities between it and TS but even more similarities to it and Xanadu. Although Neal Schon clearly plays "My Favorite Things" at the 12 second mark and then proceeds to play a variation of it, so if he feels ripped him off with TS, you could say the same with him and Julie Andrews.

 

have always said they take influences from other contemporaries to keep their music fresh and current, so who knows, they may have heard the songs and unwittingly used a similar riff thinking it was something they came up with. I'm not saying copying or plagiarism, but just similar.

 

Edit:

 

I just checked the Signals tour book on Cygnus-X1 and it says this under The Weapon section:

 

V THE WEAPON

Stately Dirk Manor, Somewhere-north-of-Toronto, December,1981

 

With a Roland drum machine and assorted synthesizers, Geddy and friend Oscar secret themselves in Ged's music room to create some music of a highly confidential and experimental nature.

 

 

 

 

Who's to say that perhaps the mysterious Oscar didn't come up with the sequenced syth pattern clearly knowing it had been used by Visage....or something along those lines....BTW, I hope for the sake of my argument Oscar wasn't Geddy's pet cat.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Invisible To Telescopic Eye

[Mara]

QUOTE (Invisible To Telescopic Eye @ Aug 10 2011, 07:47 AM)

I listened to both Fade To Grey and Nickel and Dime and found similarities to in both. The synth in Face To Grey is very similar to The Weapon and I think and I feel they are almost interchangeable....almost. As for Nickel And Dime, I was introduced to Journey in about 1980 and never heard much of their pre Steve Perry stuff. That song rocks!!!! There a few similarities between it and TS but even more similarities to it and Xanadu. Although Neal Schon clearly plays "My Favorite Things" at the 12 second mark and then proceeds to play a variation of it, so if he feels ripped him off with TS, you could say the same with him and Julie Andrews. have always said they take influences from other contemporaries to keep their music fresh and current, so who knows, they may have heard the songs and unwittingly used a similar riff thinking it was something they came up with. I'm not saying copying or plagiarism, but just similar. Edit: I just checked the Signals tour book on Cygnus-X1 and it says this under The Weapon section: V THE WEAPON Stately Dirk Manor, Somewhere-north-of-Toronto, December,1981 With a Roland drum machine and assorted synthesizers, Geddy and friend Oscar secret themselves in Ged's music room to create some music of a highly confidential and experimental nature. Who's to say that perhaps the mysterious Oscar didn't come up with the sequenced syth pattern clearly knowing it had been used by Visage....or something along those lines....BTW, I hope for the sake of my argument Oscar wasn't Geddy's pet cat.

Oscar is the name Geddy and Alex gave to the drum machine they used when composing new Rush music. Neil made an observation about Oscar's contributions in one of the tourbooks, saying he'd get in the studio to record, listen to "Oscar's" drum parts and say, "What? I'm supposed to be able to play that?"

[priest_of_syrinx]

I think there is one subtle difference between the two tracks: whereas The Weapon is very good, this song is a diarrhea sandwich, which is not traditionally considered to be very good.

[LyndseyG]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Aug 9 2011, 09:40 PM)

The Journey VS. Rush thing is this: Neal Schon has claimed for years that Rush's "Tom Sawyer" is a rip-off of the Journey song "Nickel and Dime." We hemmed-and-hawed over it here at TRF, and some say there are parts of "Nickel and Dime" which sound like "Tom Sawyer" and, actually, other parts which sound like "Xanadu"! There are such things as coincidences.  There are only so many musical notes and so many ways to re-combine them, especially in hard rock music where you often use only the pentatonic scale. If you want to hear a big ripoff (to my ears), check out the beginning of the Jayhawks "Waiting For the Sun" and tell me it doesn't sound like Tom Petty stole the riff for "Mary Jane's Last Dance."

I've listened to Fade To Grey and I hear a similarity. I tried to get Nickel and Dime up on YouTube but the vid won't play, so i cant say about Tom Sawyer, however I did hear a snippet of Nickel on iTunes and I can hear Xanadu!

 

I'm in agreement with Geddyrulz on this one. There are only so many notes. It's inevitable that songs sometimes "overlap". I was listening to some Zeppelin the other day and the similarities between them and early Rush are very striking. But it's not always deliberate.

[Mara]

For anyone who cares - Kelly Osborne and her then producer DID get successfully sued a few years back for ripping off "Fade To Grey", but it was REALLY blatant. I can't remember the name of Osborne's song, though.