Best thing out of Boston in 1976?

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Rocks wins. But Smokin' is probably my favorite song from either record (great keyboard section is heavily influenced by Deep Purple or Jon Lord).

Peace of Mind is 'Bon Jovi' of the 70's though.

 

Woah! Wait a minute. Bon Jovi would never use big words like indecision or competition in their songs.

 

I meant musically it is Bon Jovi of the 70's.

 

Not even that. Bon Jovi's '80s sound was a derivative blend of hard rock and hair metal. In 1976, no one had ever heard anything like Boston's debut. In the world of hard rock, it's really never been equaled. Not even by Tom Scholz. While it's not particularly deep lyrically, its universal themes hit home perfectly with that incredibly big, pristine, earnest sound. Guitars never sounded like they'd come straight from outer space before then, as if recorded with alien technology. That sound had an instantly brandable, polished quality to it which was a strength for the band in the mid to late '70s but ultimately a curse beyond that. Hard rock/metal got meaner, darker and dirtier and Boston started to look like the nice guys trying to fit in with the cool kids (like Aerosmith) at the high school dance. Another reason that sound ultimately hurt Scholz is that there was really nowhere else to go with something that felt that finished. I think that's why subsequent Boston albums pale in comparison to the debut. Heaven is finished and unchangeable and any repetition of it seems redundant not to mention too much of it inevitably starts to feel oppressive.

 

But '70s Aerosmith was no slouch either. The playing and writing was just so nasty and funky how could you not love and respect it? They're one of the most influential hard rock bands ever (much more influential than Boston) and not the least of that influence is the crotch-rock element of their songs. What hyper-sexualized '80s hair metal band wasn't influenced by Aerosmith?

 

....erm. I disagree with a few points here.

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

Second, but related to the first, The hair metal bands aren't what wiped out Boston's later career. Tom Sholz did that himself. His perfectionism was what lead to the brilliance of that debut, but was also the reason Don't Look Back didn't live up to it. The label forced a second record out of the band before he was finished with it, and the results show this. On the third album (which I haven't heard btw) he was allowed to take all the time he needed, leading him not to release in until 86, long after AOR had passed its prime, and a new Boston record wasn't a very big deal in the public eye. Three albums in 10 years might be fine by today's standards, but it was no recipe for increased success in the 70s and 80s. Aside from Boston, though, AOR thrived well into the 80s. I Want To Know What Love Is from Foreigner, Mr. Roboto from Styx, Separate Ways from Journey, Africa from Toto, and Can't Fight This Feeling from REO Speedwagon soundtracked the first half of the decade for many, right alongside early hair metal records like Shout At The Devil and Pyromania. To my understanding, these same bands would have likely seen greater success in the late 80s if not for most of them splintering apart. Ultimately, AOR didn't get overtaken by hair metal for sounding too "innocent," but mostly its lead artists found themselves incapable of surviving the 80s intact enough to score more hits.

 

I do agree that Aerosmith were on fire in the 70s though, and that they were incredibly influential on rock music for decades to come. I'm not sure they were more influential than Boston, though. To me they're probably equally as important to the development of rock.

 

Arena rock, as with any musical trend back then, died out because labels saturated the airwaves with it so much that the public got burned out on it and stopped buying the records. Sure some of the really big bands still had legs after its expiration date but new bands in that style stopped being signed because it had already begun to be taken over by newer musical trends. That's how this stuff works. But sometimes elements of earlier musical styles go on live in newer trends and genres.

 

I'd drop the AOR term because it casts too wide a net for the type of music we're talking about. What Boston, Styx, Journey, Foreigner, et al., did can be more specifically termed arena rock or stadium rock, or pejoratively as corporate rock (or hilariously as dad-rock). As you know, it was a highly produced, highly commercialized anthemic form of watered down hard rock with quasi-prog elements that featured lots of big, harmonized choruses, crunchy power ballads and a grandiose pre-fab sound designed for nothing smaller than an arena sized audience. I imagine seeing a Styx tribute band in a club these days might prove a bit disorienting.

 

I'm not saying Boston wasn't influential (I'm also not saying they weren't a great band). I agree with you that their blockbuster debut kicked off arena rock's successful run but let's not forget that run only lasted about 7 years if that (actually a decent run). I'll also posit that the genre was arguably already creatively spent by 1980 but that's just my opinion.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to prefer Boston and other arena rock bands over Arosmith. All I'm saying here is that Aerosmith's raunchy, edgy brand of bluesy hard rock has proved more versatile and longer lasting than Boston's big, positive arena rock sound. 70s Aerosmith's sardonic, gritty attitude coupled with Perry's street level toolkit are much more blendable with punk, hip hop, grunge, metal, even pop, than arena rock ever was. Where did arena rock's influence end up? Probably the purgatory of today's modern country.

 

But arena rock was actually pretty square from the get-go as it was mainly marketed to mass audiences for its radio friendly feel-good songs. There was no sense of danger to it. That's never cool. With this built-in squareness...damn...arena rock arguably had more in common with broadway musicals than gritty rock and roll. I mean, Brad Delp sounds as if the best singer in the high school glee club decided to try out this rock 'n' roll thing.

 

I'd like to see the source where Cobain cites Boston as an influence. The beginnings of Smells Like Teen Spirit went down like this according to Kurt:

 

 

When Kurt Cobain first came up with the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” riff, he didn’t think he had anything that special. “It was such a cliched riff,” he said. “It was so close to a Boston riff or ‘Louie Louie.’ When I came up with the guitar part, Krist [Novoselic] looked at me and said, ‘That is so ridiculous.'”

 

After the song became an enormous hit, many others pointed out that the main riff did indeed sound like Boston’s “More Than a Feeling,” even though they’re in different keys. They probably weren’t similar enough for Boston’s Tom Scholz to file any sort of legal action, but he said he didn’t mind at all.

 

Source

 

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And neither is this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=R3XIGon2RjY

 

On the other hand, he states a real appreciation for Aerosmith in this interview while generally dismissing most other arena rock bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalY3kgGz_M

 

Cobain would never dream of writing a song in the early 90s that had a pronounced influence of a band as uncool as Boston (whether he liked the band or not. Btw, Smells Like Teen Spirit does not sound like Boston). His band mates would have laughed him right out of Nirvana had he tried to squeeze a "guilty pleasure" like that by them. This is because when you go off-script with your hipster peers and the presiding hipsterati of the day, you tank your career before it even begins, especially in those days when labels were still trying to capitalize on emerging new scenes and styles. But that's only if you decide buy into what hipsters (and eventually A&R men) expect of you. When you do that, you self-censor your musical wrong-think.

 

AOR is a pretty accepted term around TRF to describe that crop of bands, and I prefer it to arena rock which always struck me as a bit diminishing. I’d still argue Boston and the AOR sound went on to influence the production value and radio readiness of everything from Pyromania to Nevermind, if not necessarily the music. And as far as Kurt being seen as uncool....it’s my understanding he bonded with Dave Grohl on the phone over their shared love of ABBA and Queen. Kurt liked good pop music, and this is evident in his streamlined pop songwriting.

[Three Eyes]

Bahston.

 

It would actually be "Bawston" if you're from Boston. "Bahston" is how people from Western Massachusetts pronounce it.

 

So Bostonians say pawk the caw, not pahk the cah?

 

No. “AR” is pronounced “AH.” People from Bawston probably prefer the album Rawks. See?

 

So the people of Boston say park the car and this whole pahk the cah thing is just a myth?

 

Why would Boston be pronounced like park?

 

You pahk yuh cah in Bawston.

 

That's what I said! Looks like I misread one of your above posts. So it's Bawston and pahk cah. Ok got it.

[Three Eyes]

Rocks wins. But Smokin' is probably my favorite song from either record (great keyboard section is heavily influenced by Deep Purple or Jon Lord).

Peace of Mind is 'Bon Jovi' of the 70's though.

 

Woah! Wait a minute. Bon Jovi would never use big words like indecision or competition in their songs.

 

I meant musically it is Bon Jovi of the 70's.

 

Not even that. Bon Jovi's '80s sound was a derivative blend of hard rock and hair metal. In 1976, no one had ever heard anything like Boston's debut. In the world of hard rock, it's really never been equaled. Not even by Tom Scholz. While it's not particularly deep lyrically, its universal themes hit home perfectly with that incredibly big, pristine, earnest sound. Guitars never sounded like they'd come straight from outer space before then, as if recorded with alien technology. That sound had an instantly brandable, polished quality to it which was a strength for the band in the mid to late '70s but ultimately a curse beyond that. Hard rock/metal got meaner, darker and dirtier and Boston started to look like the nice guys trying to fit in with the cool kids (like Aerosmith) at the high school dance. Another reason that sound ultimately hurt Scholz is that there was really nowhere else to go with something that felt that finished. I think that's why subsequent Boston albums pale in comparison to the debut. Heaven is finished and unchangeable and any repetition of it seems redundant not to mention too much of it inevitably starts to feel oppressive.

 

But '70s Aerosmith was no slouch either. The playing and writing was just so nasty and funky how could you not love and respect it? They're one of the most influential hard rock bands ever (much more influential than Boston) and not the least of that influence is the crotch-rock element of their songs. What hyper-sexualized '80s hair metal band wasn't influenced by Aerosmith?

 

....erm. I disagree with a few points here.

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

Second, but related to the first, The hair metal bands aren't what wiped out Boston's later career. Tom Sholz did that himself. His perfectionism was what lead to the brilliance of that debut, but was also the reason Don't Look Back didn't live up to it. The label forced a second record out of the band before he was finished with it, and the results show this. On the third album (which I haven't heard btw) he was allowed to take all the time he needed, leading him not to release in until 86, long after AOR had passed its prime, and a new Boston record wasn't a very big deal in the public eye. Three albums in 10 years might be fine by today's standards, but it was no recipe for increased success in the 70s and 80s. Aside from Boston, though, AOR thrived well into the 80s. I Want To Know What Love Is from Foreigner, Mr. Roboto from Styx, Separate Ways from Journey, Africa from Toto, and Can't Fight This Feeling from REO Speedwagon soundtracked the first half of the decade for many, right alongside early hair metal records like Shout At The Devil and Pyromania. To my understanding, these same bands would have likely seen greater success in the late 80s if not for most of them splintering apart. Ultimately, AOR didn't get overtaken by hair metal for sounding too "innocent," but mostly its lead artists found themselves incapable of surviving the 80s intact enough to score more hits.

 

I do agree that Aerosmith were on fire in the 70s though, and that they were incredibly influential on rock music for decades to come. I'm not sure they were more influential than Boston, though. To me they're probably equally as important to the development of rock.

 

Arena rock, as with any musical trend back then, died out because labels saturated the airwaves with it so much that the public got burned out on it and stopped buying the records. Sure some of the really big bands still had legs after its expiration date but new bands in that style stopped being signed because it had already begun to be taken over by newer musical trends. That's how this stuff works. But sometimes elements of earlier musical styles go on live in newer trends and genres.

 

I'd drop the AOR term because it casts too wide a net for the type of music we're talking about. What Boston, Styx, Journey, Foreigner, et al., did can be more specifically termed arena rock or stadium rock, or pejoratively as corporate rock (or hilariously as dad-rock). As you know, it was a highly produced, highly commercialized anthemic form of watered down hard rock with quasi-prog elements that featured lots of big, harmonized choruses, crunchy power ballads and a grandiose pre-fab sound designed for nothing smaller than an arena sized audience. I imagine seeing a Styx tribute band in a club these days might prove a bit disorienting.

 

I'm not saying Boston wasn't influential (I'm also not saying they weren't a great band). I agree with you that their blockbuster debut kicked off arena rock's successful run but let's not forget that run only lasted about 7 years if that (actually a decent run). I'll also posit that the genre was arguably already creatively spent by 1980 but that's just my opinion.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to prefer Boston and other arena rock bands over Arosmith. All I'm saying here is that Aerosmith's raunchy, edgy brand of bluesy hard rock has proved more versatile and longer lasting than Boston's big, positive arena rock sound. 70s Aerosmith's sardonic, gritty attitude coupled with Perry's street level toolkit are much more blendable with punk, hip hop, grunge, metal, even pop, than arena rock ever was. Where did arena rock's influence end up? Probably the purgatory of today's modern country.

 

But arena rock was actually pretty square from the get-go as it was mainly marketed to mass audiences for its radio friendly feel-good songs. There was no sense of danger to it. That's never cool. With this built-in squareness...damn...arena rock arguably had more in common with broadway musicals than gritty rock and roll. I mean, Brad Delp sounds as if the best singer in the high school glee club decided to try out this rock 'n' roll thing.

 

I'd like to see the source where Cobain cites Boston as an influence. The beginnings of Smells Like Teen Spirit went down like this according to Kurt:

 

 

When Kurt Cobain first came up with the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” riff, he didn’t think he had anything that special. “It was such a cliched riff,” he said. “It was so close to a Boston riff or ‘Louie Louie.’ When I came up with the guitar part, Krist [Novoselic] looked at me and said, ‘That is so ridiculous.'”

 

After the song became an enormous hit, many others pointed out that the main riff did indeed sound like Boston’s “More Than a Feeling,” even though they’re in different keys. They probably weren’t similar enough for Boston’s Tom Scholz to file any sort of legal action, but he said he didn’t mind at all.

 

Source

 

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And neither is this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=R3XIGon2RjY

 

On the other hand, he states a real appreciation for Aerosmith in this interview while generally dismissing most other arena rock bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalY3kgGz_M

 

Cobain would never dream of writing a song in the early 90s that had a pronounced influence of a band as uncool as Boston (whether he liked the band or not. Btw, Smells Like Teen Spirit does not sound like Boston). His band mates would have laughed him right out of Nirvana had he tried to squeeze a "guilty pleasure" like that by them. This is because when you go off-script with your hipster peers and the presiding hipsterati of the day, you tank your career before it even begins, especially in those days when labels were still trying to capitalize on emerging new scenes and styles. But that's only if you decide buy into what hipsters (and eventually A&R men) expect of you. When you do that, you self-censor your musical wrong-think.

 

AOR is a pretty accepted term around TRF to describe that crop of bands, and I prefer it to arena rock which always struck me as a bit diminishing. I’d still argue Boston and the AOR sound went on to influence the production value and radio readiness of everything from Pyromania to Nevermind, if not necessarily the music. And as far as Kurt being seen as uncool....it’s my understanding he bonded with Dave Grohl on the phone over their shared love of ABBA and Queen. Kurt liked good pop music, and this is evident in his streamlined pop songwriting.

 

I speculated in so many words that he may have been afraid of being seen as uncool if he injected overt influences of uncool bands he may have liked into Nirvana's music. While Kurt could write a catchy tune or two, Nirvana never stepped very far outside the alt-rock/grunge box. Imo, this is probably because scenesters and hipster music critics are the biggest music bigots in the world and will shame free thinking artists mercilessly until they bow to their "superior" taste in music. Remember how they tried doing that to Rush in the '70s? Thankfully they had the backbone to ignore them. But then again, the '70s didn't have the same level of musical tribalism and segregation that was occurring in the 80s and 90s when genre prisons started becoming the rule.

 

There's no question Tom Scholz's studio innovations have influenced the entire recording industry for the better but the thrust of my argument was that the influence of his music didn't really extend far beyond the arena rock era. Not in a big way anyway,

 

Sorry but arena rock is the correct term for this debate. AOR includes too many different styles that are not applicable here.

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Rocks wins. But Smokin' is probably my favorite song from either record (great keyboard section is heavily influenced by Deep Purple or Jon Lord).

Peace of Mind is 'Bon Jovi' of the 70's though.

 

Woah! Wait a minute. Bon Jovi would never use big words like indecision or competition in their songs.

 

I meant musically it is Bon Jovi of the 70's.

 

Not even that. Bon Jovi's '80s sound was a derivative blend of hard rock and hair metal. In 1976, no one had ever heard anything like Boston's debut. In the world of hard rock, it's really never been equaled. Not even by Tom Scholz. While it's not particularly deep lyrically, its universal themes hit home perfectly with that incredibly big, pristine, earnest sound. Guitars never sounded like they'd come straight from outer space before then, as if recorded with alien technology. That sound had an instantly brandable, polished quality to it which was a strength for the band in the mid to late '70s but ultimately a curse beyond that. Hard rock/metal got meaner, darker and dirtier and Boston started to look like the nice guys trying to fit in with the cool kids (like Aerosmith) at the high school dance. Another reason that sound ultimately hurt Scholz is that there was really nowhere else to go with something that felt that finished. I think that's why subsequent Boston albums pale in comparison to the debut. Heaven is finished and unchangeable and any repetition of it seems redundant not to mention too much of it inevitably starts to feel oppressive.

 

But '70s Aerosmith was no slouch either. The playing and writing was just so nasty and funky how could you not love and respect it? They're one of the most influential hard rock bands ever (much more influential than Boston) and not the least of that influence is the crotch-rock element of their songs. What hyper-sexualized '80s hair metal band wasn't influenced by Aerosmith?

 

....erm. I disagree with a few points here.

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

Second, but related to the first, The hair metal bands aren't what wiped out Boston's later career. Tom Sholz did that himself. His perfectionism was what lead to the brilliance of that debut, but was also the reason Don't Look Back didn't live up to it. The label forced a second record out of the band before he was finished with it, and the results show this. On the third album (which I haven't heard btw) he was allowed to take all the time he needed, leading him not to release in until 86, long after AOR had passed its prime, and a new Boston record wasn't a very big deal in the public eye. Three albums in 10 years might be fine by today's standards, but it was no recipe for increased success in the 70s and 80s. Aside from Boston, though, AOR thrived well into the 80s. I Want To Know What Love Is from Foreigner, Mr. Roboto from Styx, Separate Ways from Journey, Africa from Toto, and Can't Fight This Feeling from REO Speedwagon soundtracked the first half of the decade for many, right alongside early hair metal records like Shout At The Devil and Pyromania. To my understanding, these same bands would have likely seen greater success in the late 80s if not for most of them splintering apart. Ultimately, AOR didn't get overtaken by hair metal for sounding too "innocent," but mostly its lead artists found themselves incapable of surviving the 80s intact enough to score more hits.

 

I do agree that Aerosmith were on fire in the 70s though, and that they were incredibly influential on rock music for decades to come. I'm not sure they were more influential than Boston, though. To me they're probably equally as important to the development of rock.

 

Arena rock, as with any musical trend back then, died out because labels saturated the airwaves with it so much that the public got burned out on it and stopped buying the records. Sure some of the really big bands still had legs after its expiration date but new bands in that style stopped being signed because it had already begun to be taken over by newer musical trends. That's how this stuff works. But sometimes elements of earlier musical styles go on live in newer trends and genres.

 

I'd drop the AOR term because it casts too wide a net for the type of music we're talking about. What Boston, Styx, Journey, Foreigner, et al., did can be more specifically termed arena rock or stadium rock, or pejoratively as corporate rock (or hilariously as dad-rock). As you know, it was a highly produced, highly commercialized anthemic form of watered down hard rock with quasi-prog elements that featured lots of big, harmonized choruses, crunchy power ballads and a grandiose pre-fab sound designed for nothing smaller than an arena sized audience. I imagine seeing a Styx tribute band in a club these days might prove a bit disorienting.

 

I'm not saying Boston wasn't influential (I'm also not saying they weren't a great band). I agree with you that their blockbuster debut kicked off arena rock's successful run but let's not forget that run only lasted about 7 years if that (actually a decent run). I'll also posit that the genre was arguably already creatively spent by 1980 but that's just my opinion.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to prefer Boston and other arena rock bands over Arosmith. All I'm saying here is that Aerosmith's raunchy, edgy brand of bluesy hard rock has proved more versatile and longer lasting than Boston's big, positive arena rock sound. 70s Aerosmith's sardonic, gritty attitude coupled with Perry's street level toolkit are much more blendable with punk, hip hop, grunge, metal, even pop, than arena rock ever was. Where did arena rock's influence end up? Probably the purgatory of today's modern country.

 

But arena rock was actually pretty square from the get-go as it was mainly marketed to mass audiences for its radio friendly feel-good songs. There was no sense of danger to it. That's never cool. With this built-in squareness...damn...arena rock arguably had more in common with broadway musicals than gritty rock and roll. I mean, Brad Delp sounds as if the best singer in the high school glee club decided to try out this rock 'n' roll thing.

 

I'd like to see the source where Cobain cites Boston as an influence. The beginnings of Smells Like Teen Spirit went down like this according to Kurt:

 

 

When Kurt Cobain first came up with the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” riff, he didn’t think he had anything that special. “It was such a cliched riff,” he said. “It was so close to a Boston riff or ‘Louie Louie.’ When I came up with the guitar part, Krist [Novoselic] looked at me and said, ‘That is so ridiculous.'”

 

After the song became an enormous hit, many others pointed out that the main riff did indeed sound like Boston’s “More Than a Feeling,” even though they’re in different keys. They probably weren’t similar enough for Boston’s Tom Scholz to file any sort of legal action, but he said he didn’t mind at all.

 

Source

 

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And neither is this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=R3XIGon2RjY

 

On the other hand, he states a real appreciation for Aerosmith in this interview while generally dismissing most other arena rock bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalY3kgGz_M

 

Cobain would never dream of writing a song in the early 90s that had a pronounced influence of a band as uncool as Boston (whether he liked the band or not. Btw, Smells Like Teen Spirit does not sound like Boston). His band mates would have laughed him right out of Nirvana had he tried to squeeze a "guilty pleasure" like that by them. This is because when you go off-script with your hipster peers and the presiding hipsterati of the day, you tank your career before it even begins, especially in those days when labels were still trying to capitalize on emerging new scenes and styles. But that's only if you decide buy into what hipsters (and eventually A&R men) expect of you. When you do that, you self-censor your musical wrong-think.

 

AOR is a pretty accepted term around TRF to describe that crop of bands, and I prefer it to arena rock which always struck me as a bit diminishing. I’d still argue Boston and the AOR sound went on to influence the production value and radio readiness of everything from Pyromania to Nevermind, if not necessarily the music. And as far as Kurt being seen as uncool....it’s my understanding he bonded with Dave Grohl on the phone over their shared love of ABBA and Queen. Kurt liked good pop music, and this is evident in his streamlined pop songwriting.

 

I speculated in so many words that he may have been afraid of being seen as uncool if he injected overt influences of uncool bands he may have liked into Nirvana's music. While Kurt could write a catchy tune or two, Nirvana never stepped very far outside the alt-rock/grunge box. Imo, this is probably because scenesters and hipster music critics are the biggest music bigots in the world and will shame free thinking artists mercilessly until they bow to their "superior" taste in music. Remember how they tried doing that to Rush in the '70s? Thankfully they had the backbone to ignore them. But then again, the '70s didn't have the same level of musical tribalism and segregation that was occurring in the 80s and 90s when genre prisons started becoming the rule.

 

There's no question Tom Scholz's studio innovations have influenced the entire recording industry for the better but the thrust of my argument was that the influence of his music didn't really extend far beyond the arena rock era. Not in a big way anyway,

 

Sorry but arena rock is the correct term for this debate. AOR includes too many different styles that are not applicable here.

 

Fair enough. Maybe if his scene mates had been kinder, Kurt would've hired a horn section and keyboard player for In Utero. That's an exaggeration for humor, but I do agree he could've felt unsupported in his non-grungy musical interests.

 

 

About the AOR/Arena Rock thing. I don't understand the difference. AOR is Boston, Journey, Styx, Kansas, Toto, REO Speedwagon, Foreigner, etc. Arena rock is all the same plus maybe Queen, The Who, Kiss, and a few others.

[GeddysMullet]

As an oldster who was there :codger: allow me to answer. Back in the 1970s and early 80s when all these bands were becoming popular, there was no such category as “arena rock.” That came later. AOR was not a genre. The term AOR referred not to a set of bands but to an FM radio station format. It stood for “Album Oriented Rock,” and what that meant was that many different tracks from an album were played, and special presentations included playing full albums on the air, as well as live performances (the famed St Louis Rush show was originally a vinyl pressing of a recording that was circulated for play to FM radio stations) and interviews with artists. All the AOR stations pulled from a tremendously diverse range of rock music but were somewhat independent of each other and aside from certain national programs did their programming the way they saw fit. Deep track and new artist requests were a big part of it. Every commonly discussed band or artist in this forum that released an album before about 1985 is a band that could have been played on a good AOR station. AOR stations are certainly where I heard every one of them for the first time. Edited May 26, 2019 by GeddysMullet

[RUSHHEAD666]

Which record takes the cake?

 

You are on fuckking FIRE. I'm gonna start calling you JR. LOL!

 

BOSTON

 

Signed,

 

Sib

[Three Eyes]

Rocks wins. But Smokin' is probably my favorite song from either record (great keyboard section is heavily influenced by Deep Purple or Jon Lord).

Peace of Mind is 'Bon Jovi' of the 70's though.

 

Woah! Wait a minute. Bon Jovi would never use big words like indecision or competition in their songs.

 

I meant musically it is Bon Jovi of the 70's.

 

Not even that. Bon Jovi's '80s sound was a derivative blend of hard rock and hair metal. In 1976, no one had ever heard anything like Boston's debut. In the world of hard rock, it's really never been equaled. Not even by Tom Scholz. While it's not particularly deep lyrically, its universal themes hit home perfectly with that incredibly big, pristine, earnest sound. Guitars never sounded like they'd come straight from outer space before then, as if recorded with alien technology. That sound had an instantly brandable, polished quality to it which was a strength for the band in the mid to late '70s but ultimately a curse beyond that. Hard rock/metal got meaner, darker and dirtier and Boston started to look like the nice guys trying to fit in with the cool kids (like Aerosmith) at the high school dance. Another reason that sound ultimately hurt Scholz is that there was really nowhere else to go with something that felt that finished. I think that's why subsequent Boston albums pale in comparison to the debut. Heaven is finished and unchangeable and any repetition of it seems redundant not to mention too much of it inevitably starts to feel oppressive.

 

But '70s Aerosmith was no slouch either. The playing and writing was just so nasty and funky how could you not love and respect it? They're one of the most influential hard rock bands ever (much more influential than Boston) and not the least of that influence is the crotch-rock element of their songs. What hyper-sexualized '80s hair metal band wasn't influenced by Aerosmith?

 

....erm. I disagree with a few points here.

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

Second, but related to the first, The hair metal bands aren't what wiped out Boston's later career. Tom Sholz did that himself. His perfectionism was what lead to the brilliance of that debut, but was also the reason Don't Look Back didn't live up to it. The label forced a second record out of the band before he was finished with it, and the results show this. On the third album (which I haven't heard btw) he was allowed to take all the time he needed, leading him not to release in until 86, long after AOR had passed its prime, and a new Boston record wasn't a very big deal in the public eye. Three albums in 10 years might be fine by today's standards, but it was no recipe for increased success in the 70s and 80s. Aside from Boston, though, AOR thrived well into the 80s. I Want To Know What Love Is from Foreigner, Mr. Roboto from Styx, Separate Ways from Journey, Africa from Toto, and Can't Fight This Feeling from REO Speedwagon soundtracked the first half of the decade for many, right alongside early hair metal records like Shout At The Devil and Pyromania. To my understanding, these same bands would have likely seen greater success in the late 80s if not for most of them splintering apart. Ultimately, AOR didn't get overtaken by hair metal for sounding too "innocent," but mostly its lead artists found themselves incapable of surviving the 80s intact enough to score more hits.

 

I do agree that Aerosmith were on fire in the 70s though, and that they were incredibly influential on rock music for decades to come. I'm not sure they were more influential than Boston, though. To me they're probably equally as important to the development of rock.

 

Arena rock, as with any musical trend back then, died out because labels saturated the airwaves with it so much that the public got burned out on it and stopped buying the records. Sure some of the really big bands still had legs after its expiration date but new bands in that style stopped being signed because it had already begun to be taken over by newer musical trends. That's how this stuff works. But sometimes elements of earlier musical styles go on live in newer trends and genres.

 

I'd drop the AOR term because it casts too wide a net for the type of music we're talking about. What Boston, Styx, Journey, Foreigner, et al., did can be more specifically termed arena rock or stadium rock, or pejoratively as corporate rock (or hilariously as dad-rock). As you know, it was a highly produced, highly commercialized anthemic form of watered down hard rock with quasi-prog elements that featured lots of big, harmonized choruses, crunchy power ballads and a grandiose pre-fab sound designed for nothing smaller than an arena sized audience. I imagine seeing a Styx tribute band in a club these days might prove a bit disorienting.

 

I'm not saying Boston wasn't influential (I'm also not saying they weren't a great band). I agree with you that their blockbuster debut kicked off arena rock's successful run but let's not forget that run only lasted about 7 years if that (actually a decent run). I'll also posit that the genre was arguably already creatively spent by 1980 but that's just my opinion.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to prefer Boston and other arena rock bands over Arosmith. All I'm saying here is that Aerosmith's raunchy, edgy brand of bluesy hard rock has proved more versatile and longer lasting than Boston's big, positive arena rock sound. 70s Aerosmith's sardonic, gritty attitude coupled with Perry's street level toolkit are much more blendable with punk, hip hop, grunge, metal, even pop, than arena rock ever was. Where did arena rock's influence end up? Probably the purgatory of today's modern country.

 

But arena rock was actually pretty square from the get-go as it was mainly marketed to mass audiences for its radio friendly feel-good songs. There was no sense of danger to it. That's never cool. With this built-in squareness...damn...arena rock arguably had more in common with broadway musicals than gritty rock and roll. I mean, Brad Delp sounds as if the best singer in the high school glee club decided to try out this rock 'n' roll thing.

 

I'd like to see the source where Cobain cites Boston as an influence. The beginnings of Smells Like Teen Spirit went down like this according to Kurt:

 

 

When Kurt Cobain first came up with the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” riff, he didn’t think he had anything that special. “It was such a cliched riff,” he said. “It was so close to a Boston riff or ‘Louie Louie.’ When I came up with the guitar part, Krist [Novoselic] looked at me and said, ‘That is so ridiculous.'”

 

After the song became an enormous hit, many others pointed out that the main riff did indeed sound like Boston’s “More Than a Feeling,” even though they’re in different keys. They probably weren’t similar enough for Boston’s Tom Scholz to file any sort of legal action, but he said he didn’t mind at all.

 

Source

 

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And neither is this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=R3XIGon2RjY

 

On the other hand, he states a real appreciation for Aerosmith in this interview while generally dismissing most other arena rock bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalY3kgGz_M

 

Cobain would never dream of writing a song in the early 90s that had a pronounced influence of a band as uncool as Boston (whether he liked the band or not. Btw, Smells Like Teen Spirit does not sound like Boston). His band mates would have laughed him right out of Nirvana had he tried to squeeze a "guilty pleasure" like that by them. This is because when you go off-script with your hipster peers and the presiding hipsterati of the day, you tank your career before it even begins, especially in those days when labels were still trying to capitalize on emerging new scenes and styles. But that's only if you decide buy into what hipsters (and eventually A&R men) expect of you. When you do that, you self-censor your musical wrong-think.

 

AOR is a pretty accepted term around TRF to describe that crop of bands, and I prefer it to arena rock which always struck me as a bit diminishing. I’d still argue Boston and the AOR sound went on to influence the production value and radio readiness of everything from Pyromania to Nevermind, if not necessarily the music. And as far as Kurt being seen as uncool....it’s my understanding he bonded with Dave Grohl on the phone over their shared love of ABBA and Queen. Kurt liked good pop music, and this is evident in his streamlined pop songwriting.

 

I speculated in so many words that he may have been afraid of being seen as uncool if he injected overt influences of uncool bands he may have liked into Nirvana's music. While Kurt could write a catchy tune or two, Nirvana never stepped very far outside the alt-rock/grunge box. Imo, this is probably because scenesters and hipster music critics are the biggest music bigots in the world and will shame free thinking artists mercilessly until they bow to their "superior" taste in music. Remember how they tried doing that to Rush in the '70s? Thankfully they had the backbone to ignore them. But then again, the '70s didn't have the same level of musical tribalism and segregation that was occurring in the 80s and 90s when genre prisons started becoming the rule.

 

There's no question Tom Scholz's studio innovations have influenced the entire recording industry for the better but the thrust of my argument was that the influence of his music didn't really extend far beyond the arena rock era. Not in a big way anyway,

 

Sorry but arena rock is the correct term for this debate. AOR includes too many different styles that are not applicable here.

 

Fair enough. Maybe if his scene mates had been kinder, Kurt would've hired a horn section and keyboard player for In Utero. That's an exaggeration for humor, but I do agree he could've felt unsupported in his non-grungy musical interests.

 

 

About the AOR/Arena Rock thing. I don't understand the difference. AOR is Boston, Journey, Styx, Kansas, Toto, REO Speedwagon, Foreigner, etc. Arena rock is all the same plus maybe Queen, The Who, Kiss, and a few others.

 

Here's All Music's definition of arena rock. Wikipedia's is more or less the same.

 

Arena Rock developed in the mid-'70s, when hard rock and heavy metal bands began to gain popularity. The music became more commercially oriented and radio-friendly, boasting slick productions and anthemic choruses, both on their hard rock numbers and their sweeping power ballads. Most of these bands earned their following through saturation airplay on FM radio and through constant touring. Bands like Journey, REO Speedwagon, Boston, Foreigner, and Styx became some of the most popular bands of the mid- to late '70s through this circuit.

 

You can also technically stick Aerosmith with the arena rock label. They just happened to have a sound that had a more far reaching influence.

 

AOR is an FM radio format that covers more ground. For example, it would feel kind of weird calling Zappa, Tull, Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd or Prince arena rock bands even though most of them played their share of arenas.

[Three Eyes]

I read GeddysMullet's post after posting my latest. I'll agree with what he's saying there but I do think the arena rock label was already being kicked around in the 70s. But it doesn't really matter either way.

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Rocks wins. But Smokin' is probably my favorite song from either record (great keyboard section is heavily influenced by Deep Purple or Jon Lord).

Peace of Mind is 'Bon Jovi' of the 70's though.

 

Woah! Wait a minute. Bon Jovi would never use big words like indecision or competition in their songs.

 

I meant musically it is Bon Jovi of the 70's.

 

Not even that. Bon Jovi's '80s sound was a derivative blend of hard rock and hair metal. In 1976, no one had ever heard anything like Boston's debut. In the world of hard rock, it's really never been equaled. Not even by Tom Scholz. While it's not particularly deep lyrically, its universal themes hit home perfectly with that incredibly big, pristine, earnest sound. Guitars never sounded like they'd come straight from outer space before then, as if recorded with alien technology. That sound had an instantly brandable, polished quality to it which was a strength for the band in the mid to late '70s but ultimately a curse beyond that. Hard rock/metal got meaner, darker and dirtier and Boston started to look like the nice guys trying to fit in with the cool kids (like Aerosmith) at the high school dance. Another reason that sound ultimately hurt Scholz is that there was really nowhere else to go with something that felt that finished. I think that's why subsequent Boston albums pale in comparison to the debut. Heaven is finished and unchangeable and any repetition of it seems redundant not to mention too much of it inevitably starts to feel oppressive.

 

But '70s Aerosmith was no slouch either. The playing and writing was just so nasty and funky how could you not love and respect it? They're one of the most influential hard rock bands ever (much more influential than Boston) and not the least of that influence is the crotch-rock element of their songs. What hyper-sexualized '80s hair metal band wasn't influenced by Aerosmith?

 

....erm. I disagree with a few points here.

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

Second, but related to the first, The hair metal bands aren't what wiped out Boston's later career. Tom Sholz did that himself. His perfectionism was what lead to the brilliance of that debut, but was also the reason Don't Look Back didn't live up to it. The label forced a second record out of the band before he was finished with it, and the results show this. On the third album (which I haven't heard btw) he was allowed to take all the time he needed, leading him not to release in until 86, long after AOR had passed its prime, and a new Boston record wasn't a very big deal in the public eye. Three albums in 10 years might be fine by today's standards, but it was no recipe for increased success in the 70s and 80s. Aside from Boston, though, AOR thrived well into the 80s. I Want To Know What Love Is from Foreigner, Mr. Roboto from Styx, Separate Ways from Journey, Africa from Toto, and Can't Fight This Feeling from REO Speedwagon soundtracked the first half of the decade for many, right alongside early hair metal records like Shout At The Devil and Pyromania. To my understanding, these same bands would have likely seen greater success in the late 80s if not for most of them splintering apart. Ultimately, AOR didn't get overtaken by hair metal for sounding too "innocent," but mostly its lead artists found themselves incapable of surviving the 80s intact enough to score more hits.

 

I do agree that Aerosmith were on fire in the 70s though, and that they were incredibly influential on rock music for decades to come. I'm not sure they were more influential than Boston, though. To me they're probably equally as important to the development of rock.

 

Arena rock, as with any musical trend back then, died out because labels saturated the airwaves with it so much that the public got burned out on it and stopped buying the records. Sure some of the really big bands still had legs after its expiration date but new bands in that style stopped being signed because it had already begun to be taken over by newer musical trends. That's how this stuff works. But sometimes elements of earlier musical styles go on live in newer trends and genres.

 

I'd drop the AOR term because it casts too wide a net for the type of music we're talking about. What Boston, Styx, Journey, Foreigner, et al., did can be more specifically termed arena rock or stadium rock, or pejoratively as corporate rock (or hilariously as dad-rock). As you know, it was a highly produced, highly commercialized anthemic form of watered down hard rock with quasi-prog elements that featured lots of big, harmonized choruses, crunchy power ballads and a grandiose pre-fab sound designed for nothing smaller than an arena sized audience. I imagine seeing a Styx tribute band in a club these days might prove a bit disorienting.

 

I'm not saying Boston wasn't influential (I'm also not saying they weren't a great band). I agree with you that their blockbuster debut kicked off arena rock's successful run but let's not forget that run only lasted about 7 years if that (actually a decent run). I'll also posit that the genre was arguably already creatively spent by 1980 but that's just my opinion.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to prefer Boston and other arena rock bands over Arosmith. All I'm saying here is that Aerosmith's raunchy, edgy brand of bluesy hard rock has proved more versatile and longer lasting than Boston's big, positive arena rock sound. 70s Aerosmith's sardonic, gritty attitude coupled with Perry's street level toolkit are much more blendable with punk, hip hop, grunge, metal, even pop, than arena rock ever was. Where did arena rock's influence end up? Probably the purgatory of today's modern country.

 

But arena rock was actually pretty square from the get-go as it was mainly marketed to mass audiences for its radio friendly feel-good songs. There was no sense of danger to it. That's never cool. With this built-in squareness...damn...arena rock arguably had more in common with broadway musicals than gritty rock and roll. I mean, Brad Delp sounds as if the best singer in the high school glee club decided to try out this rock 'n' roll thing.

 

I'd like to see the source where Cobain cites Boston as an influence. The beginnings of Smells Like Teen Spirit went down like this according to Kurt:

 

 

When Kurt Cobain first came up with the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” riff, he didn’t think he had anything that special. “It was such a cliched riff,” he said. “It was so close to a Boston riff or ‘Louie Louie.’ When I came up with the guitar part, Krist [Novoselic] looked at me and said, ‘That is so ridiculous.'”

 

After the song became an enormous hit, many others pointed out that the main riff did indeed sound like Boston’s “More Than a Feeling,” even though they’re in different keys. They probably weren’t similar enough for Boston’s Tom Scholz to file any sort of legal action, but he said he didn’t mind at all.

 

Source

 

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And neither is this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=R3XIGon2RjY

 

On the other hand, he states a real appreciation for Aerosmith in this interview while generally dismissing most other arena rock bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalY3kgGz_M

 

Cobain would never dream of writing a song in the early 90s that had a pronounced influence of a band as uncool as Boston (whether he liked the band or not. Btw, Smells Like Teen Spirit does not sound like Boston). His band mates would have laughed him right out of Nirvana had he tried to squeeze a "guilty pleasure" like that by them. This is because when you go off-script with your hipster peers and the presiding hipsterati of the day, you tank your career before it even begins, especially in those days when labels were still trying to capitalize on emerging new scenes and styles. But that's only if you decide buy into what hipsters (and eventually A&R men) expect of you. When you do that, you self-censor your musical wrong-think.

 

AOR is a pretty accepted term around TRF to describe that crop of bands, and I prefer it to arena rock which always struck me as a bit diminishing. I’d still argue Boston and the AOR sound went on to influence the production value and radio readiness of everything from Pyromania to Nevermind, if not necessarily the music. And as far as Kurt being seen as uncool....it’s my understanding he bonded with Dave Grohl on the phone over their shared love of ABBA and Queen. Kurt liked good pop music, and this is evident in his streamlined pop songwriting.

 

I speculated in so many words that he may have been afraid of being seen as uncool if he injected overt influences of uncool bands he may have liked into Nirvana's music. While Kurt could write a catchy tune or two, Nirvana never stepped very far outside the alt-rock/grunge box. Imo, this is probably because scenesters and hipster music critics are the biggest music bigots in the world and will shame free thinking artists mercilessly until they bow to their "superior" taste in music. Remember how they tried doing that to Rush in the '70s? Thankfully they had the backbone to ignore them. But then again, the '70s didn't have the same level of musical tribalism and segregation that was occurring in the 80s and 90s when genre prisons started becoming the rule.

 

There's no question Tom Scholz's studio innovations have influenced the entire recording industry for the better but the thrust of my argument was that the influence of his music didn't really extend far beyond the arena rock era. Not in a big way anyway,

 

Sorry but arena rock is the correct term for this debate. AOR includes too many different styles that are not applicable here.

 

Fair enough. Maybe if his scene mates had been kinder, Kurt would've hired a horn section and keyboard player for In Utero. That's an exaggeration for humor, but I do agree he could've felt unsupported in his non-grungy musical interests.

 

 

About the AOR/Arena Rock thing. I don't understand the difference. AOR is Boston, Journey, Styx, Kansas, Toto, REO Speedwagon, Foreigner, etc. Arena rock is all the same plus maybe Queen, The Who, Kiss, and a few others.

 

Here's All Music's definition of arena rock. Wikipedia's is more or less the same.

 

Arena Rock developed in the mid-'70s, when hard rock and heavy metal bands began to gain popularity. The music became more commercially oriented and radio-friendly, boasting slick productions and anthemic choruses, both on their hard rock numbers and their sweeping power ballads. Most of these bands earned their following through saturation airplay on FM radio and through constant touring. Bands like Journey, REO Speedwagon, Boston, Foreigner, and Styx became some of the most popular bands of the mid- to late '70s through this circuit.

 

You can also technically stick Aerosmith with the arena rock label. They just happened to have a sound that had a more far reaching influence.

 

AOR is an FM radio format that covers more ground. For example, it would feel kind of weird calling Zappa, Tull, Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd or Prince arena rock bands even though most of them played their share of arenas.

 

I would definitely call Pink Floyd arena rock by the time they released The Wall. And I still disagree that Aerosmith's sound had a wider influence than Boston's, but that's really nitpicking.

[Three Eyes]

Rocks wins. But Smokin' is probably my favorite song from either record (great keyboard section is heavily influenced by Deep Purple or Jon Lord).

Peace of Mind is 'Bon Jovi' of the 70's though.

 

Woah! Wait a minute. Bon Jovi would never use big words like indecision or competition in their songs.

 

I meant musically it is Bon Jovi of the 70's.

 

Not even that. Bon Jovi's '80s sound was a derivative blend of hard rock and hair metal. In 1976, no one had ever heard anything like Boston's debut. In the world of hard rock, it's really never been equaled. Not even by Tom Scholz. While it's not particularly deep lyrically, its universal themes hit home perfectly with that incredibly big, pristine, earnest sound. Guitars never sounded like they'd come straight from outer space before then, as if recorded with alien technology. That sound had an instantly brandable, polished quality to it which was a strength for the band in the mid to late '70s but ultimately a curse beyond that. Hard rock/metal got meaner, darker and dirtier and Boston started to look like the nice guys trying to fit in with the cool kids (like Aerosmith) at the high school dance. Another reason that sound ultimately hurt Scholz is that there was really nowhere else to go with something that felt that finished. I think that's why subsequent Boston albums pale in comparison to the debut. Heaven is finished and unchangeable and any repetition of it seems redundant not to mention too much of it inevitably starts to feel oppressive.

 

But '70s Aerosmith was no slouch either. The playing and writing was just so nasty and funky how could you not love and respect it? They're one of the most influential hard rock bands ever (much more influential than Boston) and not the least of that influence is the crotch-rock element of their songs. What hyper-sexualized '80s hair metal band wasn't influenced by Aerosmith?

 

....erm. I disagree with a few points here.

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

Second, but related to the first, The hair metal bands aren't what wiped out Boston's later career. Tom Sholz did that himself. His perfectionism was what lead to the brilliance of that debut, but was also the reason Don't Look Back didn't live up to it. The label forced a second record out of the band before he was finished with it, and the results show this. On the third album (which I haven't heard btw) he was allowed to take all the time he needed, leading him not to release in until 86, long after AOR had passed its prime, and a new Boston record wasn't a very big deal in the public eye. Three albums in 10 years might be fine by today's standards, but it was no recipe for increased success in the 70s and 80s. Aside from Boston, though, AOR thrived well into the 80s. I Want To Know What Love Is from Foreigner, Mr. Roboto from Styx, Separate Ways from Journey, Africa from Toto, and Can't Fight This Feeling from REO Speedwagon soundtracked the first half of the decade for many, right alongside early hair metal records like Shout At The Devil and Pyromania. To my understanding, these same bands would have likely seen greater success in the late 80s if not for most of them splintering apart. Ultimately, AOR didn't get overtaken by hair metal for sounding too "innocent," but mostly its lead artists found themselves incapable of surviving the 80s intact enough to score more hits.

 

I do agree that Aerosmith were on fire in the 70s though, and that they were incredibly influential on rock music for decades to come. I'm not sure they were more influential than Boston, though. To me they're probably equally as important to the development of rock.

 

Arena rock, as with any musical trend back then, died out because labels saturated the airwaves with it so much that the public got burned out on it and stopped buying the records. Sure some of the really big bands still had legs after its expiration date but new bands in that style stopped being signed because it had already begun to be taken over by newer musical trends. That's how this stuff works. But sometimes elements of earlier musical styles go on live in newer trends and genres.

 

I'd drop the AOR term because it casts too wide a net for the type of music we're talking about. What Boston, Styx, Journey, Foreigner, et al., did can be more specifically termed arena rock or stadium rock, or pejoratively as corporate rock (or hilariously as dad-rock). As you know, it was a highly produced, highly commercialized anthemic form of watered down hard rock with quasi-prog elements that featured lots of big, harmonized choruses, crunchy power ballads and a grandiose pre-fab sound designed for nothing smaller than an arena sized audience. I imagine seeing a Styx tribute band in a club these days might prove a bit disorienting.

 

I'm not saying Boston wasn't influential (I'm also not saying they weren't a great band). I agree with you that their blockbuster debut kicked off arena rock's successful run but let's not forget that run only lasted about 7 years if that (actually a decent run). I'll also posit that the genre was arguably already creatively spent by 1980 but that's just my opinion.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to prefer Boston and other arena rock bands over Arosmith. All I'm saying here is that Aerosmith's raunchy, edgy brand of bluesy hard rock has proved more versatile and longer lasting than Boston's big, positive arena rock sound. 70s Aerosmith's sardonic, gritty attitude coupled with Perry's street level toolkit are much more blendable with punk, hip hop, grunge, metal, even pop, than arena rock ever was. Where did arena rock's influence end up? Probably the purgatory of today's modern country.

 

But arena rock was actually pretty square from the get-go as it was mainly marketed to mass audiences for its radio friendly feel-good songs. There was no sense of danger to it. That's never cool. With this built-in squareness...damn...arena rock arguably had more in common with broadway musicals than gritty rock and roll. I mean, Brad Delp sounds as if the best singer in the high school glee club decided to try out this rock 'n' roll thing.

 

I'd like to see the source where Cobain cites Boston as an influence. The beginnings of Smells Like Teen Spirit went down like this according to Kurt:

 

 

When Kurt Cobain first came up with the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” riff, he didn’t think he had anything that special. “It was such a cliched riff,” he said. “It was so close to a Boston riff or ‘Louie Louie.’ When I came up with the guitar part, Krist [Novoselic] looked at me and said, ‘That is so ridiculous.'”

 

After the song became an enormous hit, many others pointed out that the main riff did indeed sound like Boston’s “More Than a Feeling,” even though they’re in different keys. They probably weren’t similar enough for Boston’s Tom Scholz to file any sort of legal action, but he said he didn’t mind at all.

 

Source

 

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And neither is this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=R3XIGon2RjY

 

On the other hand, he states a real appreciation for Aerosmith in this interview while generally dismissing most other arena rock bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalY3kgGz_M

 

Cobain would never dream of writing a song in the early 90s that had a pronounced influence of a band as uncool as Boston (whether he liked the band or not. Btw, Smells Like Teen Spirit does not sound like Boston). His band mates would have laughed him right out of Nirvana had he tried to squeeze a "guilty pleasure" like that by them. This is because when you go off-script with your hipster peers and the presiding hipsterati of the day, you tank your career before it even begins, especially in those days when labels were still trying to capitalize on emerging new scenes and styles. But that's only if you decide buy into what hipsters (and eventually A&R men) expect of you. When you do that, you self-censor your musical wrong-think.

 

AOR is a pretty accepted term around TRF to describe that crop of bands, and I prefer it to arena rock which always struck me as a bit diminishing. I’d still argue Boston and the AOR sound went on to influence the production value and radio readiness of everything from Pyromania to Nevermind, if not necessarily the music. And as far as Kurt being seen as uncool....it’s my understanding he bonded with Dave Grohl on the phone over their shared love of ABBA and Queen. Kurt liked good pop music, and this is evident in his streamlined pop songwriting.

 

I speculated in so many words that he may have been afraid of being seen as uncool if he injected overt influences of uncool bands he may have liked into Nirvana's music. While Kurt could write a catchy tune or two, Nirvana never stepped very far outside the alt-rock/grunge box. Imo, this is probably because scenesters and hipster music critics are the biggest music bigots in the world and will shame free thinking artists mercilessly until they bow to their "superior" taste in music. Remember how they tried doing that to Rush in the '70s? Thankfully they had the backbone to ignore them. But then again, the '70s didn't have the same level of musical tribalism and segregation that was occurring in the 80s and 90s when genre prisons started becoming the rule.

 

There's no question Tom Scholz's studio innovations have influenced the entire recording industry for the better but the thrust of my argument was that the influence of his music didn't really extend far beyond the arena rock era. Not in a big way anyway,

 

Sorry but arena rock is the correct term for this debate. AOR includes too many different styles that are not applicable here.

 

Fair enough. Maybe if his scene mates had been kinder, Kurt would've hired a horn section and keyboard player for In Utero. That's an exaggeration for humor, but I do agree he could've felt unsupported in his non-grungy musical interests.

 

 

About the AOR/Arena Rock thing. I don't understand the difference. AOR is Boston, Journey, Styx, Kansas, Toto, REO Speedwagon, Foreigner, etc. Arena rock is all the same plus maybe Queen, The Who, Kiss, and a few others.

 

Here's All Music's definition of arena rock. Wikipedia's is more or less the same.

 

Arena Rock developed in the mid-'70s, when hard rock and heavy metal bands began to gain popularity. The music became more commercially oriented and radio-friendly, boasting slick productions and anthemic choruses, both on their hard rock numbers and their sweeping power ballads. Most of these bands earned their following through saturation airplay on FM radio and through constant touring. Bands like Journey, REO Speedwagon, Boston, Foreigner, and Styx became some of the most popular bands of the mid- to late '70s through this circuit.

 

You can also technically stick Aerosmith with the arena rock label. They just happened to have a sound that had a more far reaching influence.

 

AOR is an FM radio format that covers more ground. For example, it would feel kind of weird calling Zappa, Tull, Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd or Prince arena rock bands even though most of them played their share of arenas.

 

I would definitely call Pink Floyd arena rock by the time they released The Wall. And I still disagree that Aerosmith's sound had a wider influence than Boston's, but that's really nitpicking.

 

I don't know how much better I can explain the truth of it so I'll leave it here.

[Rick N. Backer]

Def Leppard’s Pyromania’s marketing called it AOR - Arson Oriented Rock.

[Texas King]

Rocks wins. But Smokin' is probably my favorite song from either record (great keyboard section is heavily influenced by Deep Purple or Jon Lord).

Peace of Mind is 'Bon Jovi' of the 70's though.

 

Woah! Wait a minute. Bon Jovi would never use big words like indecision or competition in their songs.

 

I meant musically it is Bon Jovi of the 70's.

 

Not even that. Bon Jovi's '80s sound was a derivative blend of hard rock and hair metal. In 1976, no one had ever heard anything like Boston's debut. In the world of hard rock, it's really never been equaled. Not even by Tom Scholz. While it's not particularly deep lyrically, its universal themes hit home perfectly with that incredibly big, pristine, earnest sound. Guitars never sounded like they'd come straight from outer space before then, as if recorded with alien technology. That sound had an instantly brandable, polished quality to it which was a strength for the band in the mid to late '70s but ultimately a curse beyond that. Hard rock/metal got meaner, darker and dirtier and Boston started to look like the nice guys trying to fit in with the cool kids (like Aerosmith) at the high school dance. Another reason that sound ultimately hurt Scholz is that there was really nowhere else to go with something that felt that finished. I think that's why subsequent Boston albums pale in comparison to the debut. Heaven is finished and unchangeable and any repetition of it seems redundant not to mention too much of it inevitably starts to feel oppressive.

 

But '70s Aerosmith was no slouch either. The playing and writing was just so nasty and funky how could you not love and respect it? They're one of the most influential hard rock bands ever (much more influential than Boston) and not the least of that influence is the crotch-rock element of their songs. What hyper-sexualized '80s hair metal band wasn't influenced by Aerosmith?

 

....erm. I disagree with a few points here.

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

Second, but related to the first, The hair metal bands aren't what wiped out Boston's later career. Tom Sholz did that himself. His perfectionism was what lead to the brilliance of that debut, but was also the reason Don't Look Back didn't live up to it. The label forced a second record out of the band before he was finished with it, and the results show this. On the third album (which I haven't heard btw) he was allowed to take all the time he needed, leading him not to release in until 86, long after AOR had passed its prime, and a new Boston record wasn't a very big deal in the public eye. Three albums in 10 years might be fine by today's standards, but it was no recipe for increased success in the 70s and 80s. Aside from Boston, though, AOR thrived well into the 80s. I Want To Know What Love Is from Foreigner, Mr. Roboto from Styx, Separate Ways from Journey, Africa from Toto, and Can't Fight This Feeling from REO Speedwagon soundtracked the first half of the decade for many, right alongside early hair metal records like Shout At The Devil and Pyromania. To my understanding, these same bands would have likely seen greater success in the late 80s if not for most of them splintering apart. Ultimately, AOR didn't get overtaken by hair metal for sounding too "innocent," but mostly its lead artists found themselves incapable of surviving the 80s intact enough to score more hits.

 

I do agree that Aerosmith were on fire in the 70s though, and that they were incredibly influential on rock music for decades to come. I'm not sure they were more influential than Boston, though. To me they're probably equally as important to the development of rock.

 

Arena rock, as with any musical trend back then, died out because labels saturated the airwaves with it so much that the public got burned out on it and stopped buying the records. Sure some of the really big bands still had legs after its expiration date but new bands in that style stopped being signed because it had already begun to be taken over by newer musical trends. That's how this stuff works. But sometimes elements of earlier musical styles go on live in newer trends and genres.

 

I'd drop the AOR term because it casts too wide a net for the type of music we're talking about. What Boston, Styx, Journey, Foreigner, et al., did can be more specifically termed arena rock or stadium rock, or pejoratively as corporate rock (or hilariously as dad-rock). As you know, it was a highly produced, highly commercialized anthemic form of watered down hard rock with quasi-prog elements that featured lots of big, harmonized choruses, crunchy power ballads and a grandiose pre-fab sound designed for nothing smaller than an arena sized audience. I imagine seeing a Styx tribute band in a club these days might prove a bit disorienting.

 

I'm not saying Boston wasn't influential (I'm also not saying they weren't a great band). I agree with you that their blockbuster debut kicked off arena rock's successful run but let's not forget that run only lasted about 7 years if that (actually a decent run). I'll also posit that the genre was arguably already creatively spent by 1980 but that's just my opinion.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to prefer Boston and other arena rock bands over Arosmith. All I'm saying here is that Aerosmith's raunchy, edgy brand of bluesy hard rock has proved more versatile and longer lasting than Boston's big, positive arena rock sound. 70s Aerosmith's sardonic, gritty attitude coupled with Perry's street level toolkit are much more blendable with punk, hip hop, grunge, metal, even pop, than arena rock ever was. Where did arena rock's influence end up? Probably the purgatory of today's modern country.

 

But arena rock was actually pretty square from the get-go as it was mainly marketed to mass audiences for its radio friendly feel-good songs. There was no sense of danger to it. That's never cool. With this built-in squareness...damn...arena rock arguably had more in common with broadway musicals than gritty rock and roll. I mean, Brad Delp sounds as if the best singer in the high school glee club decided to try out this rock 'n' roll thing.

 

I'd like to see the source where Cobain cites Boston as an influence. The beginnings of Smells Like Teen Spirit went down like this according to Kurt:

 

 

When Kurt Cobain first came up with the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” riff, he didn’t think he had anything that special. “It was such a cliched riff,” he said. “It was so close to a Boston riff or ‘Louie Louie.’ When I came up with the guitar part, Krist [Novoselic] looked at me and said, ‘That is so ridiculous.'”

 

After the song became an enormous hit, many others pointed out that the main riff did indeed sound like Boston’s “More Than a Feeling,” even though they’re in different keys. They probably weren’t similar enough for Boston’s Tom Scholz to file any sort of legal action, but he said he didn’t mind at all.

 

Source

 

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And neither is this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=R3XIGon2RjY

 

On the other hand, he states a real appreciation for Aerosmith in this interview while generally dismissing most other arena rock bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalY3kgGz_M

 

Cobain would never dream of writing a song in the early 90s that had a pronounced influence of a band as uncool as Boston (whether he liked the band or not. Btw, Smells Like Teen Spirit does not sound like Boston). His band mates would have laughed him right out of Nirvana had he tried to squeeze a "guilty pleasure" like that by them. This is because when you go off-script with your hipster peers and the presiding hipsterati of the day, you tank your career before it even begins, especially in those days when labels were still trying to capitalize on emerging new scenes and styles. But that's only if you decide buy into what hipsters (and eventually A&R men) expect of you. When you do that, you self-censor your musical wrong-think.

 

AOR is a pretty accepted term around TRF to describe that crop of bands, and I prefer it to arena rock which always struck me as a bit diminishing. I’d still argue Boston and the AOR sound went on to influence the production value and radio readiness of everything from Pyromania to Nevermind, if not necessarily the music. And as far as Kurt being seen as uncool....it’s my understanding he bonded with Dave Grohl on the phone over their shared love of ABBA and Queen. Kurt liked good pop music, and this is evident in his streamlined pop songwriting.

 

I speculated in so many words that he may have been afraid of being seen as uncool if he injected overt influences of uncool bands he may have liked into Nirvana's music. While Kurt could write a catchy tune or two, Nirvana never stepped very far outside the alt-rock/grunge box. Imo, this is probably because scenesters and hipster music critics are the biggest music bigots in the world and will shame free thinking artists mercilessly until they bow to their "superior" taste in music. Remember how they tried doing that to Rush in the '70s? Thankfully they had the backbone to ignore them. But then again, the '70s didn't have the same level of musical tribalism and segregation that was occurring in the 80s and 90s when genre prisons started becoming the rule.

 

There's no question Tom Scholz's studio innovations have influenced the entire recording industry for the better but the thrust of my argument was that the influence of his music didn't really extend far beyond the arena rock era. Not in a big way anyway,

 

Sorry but arena rock is the correct term for this debate. AOR includes too many different styles that are not applicable here.

 

Fair enough. Maybe if his scene mates had been kinder, Kurt would've hired a horn section and keyboard player for In Utero. That's an exaggeration for humor, but I do agree he could've felt unsupported in his non-grungy musical interests.

 

 

About the AOR/Arena Rock thing. I don't understand the difference. AOR is Boston, Journey, Styx, Kansas, Toto, REO Speedwagon, Foreigner, etc. Arena rock is all the same plus maybe Queen, The Who, Kiss, and a few others.

 

Here's All Music's definition of arena rock. Wikipedia's is more or less the same.

 

Arena Rock developed in the mid-'70s, when hard rock and heavy metal bands began to gain popularity. The music became more commercially oriented and radio-friendly, boasting slick productions and anthemic choruses, both on their hard rock numbers and their sweeping power ballads. Most of these bands earned their following through saturation airplay on FM radio and through constant touring. Bands like Journey, REO Speedwagon, Boston, Foreigner, and Styx became some of the most popular bands of the mid- to late '70s through this circuit.

 

You can also technically stick Aerosmith with the arena rock label. They just happened to have a sound that had a more far reaching influence.

 

AOR is an FM radio format that covers more ground. For example, it would feel kind of weird calling Zappa, Tull, Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd or Prince arena rock bands even though most of them played their share of arenas.

 

I would definitely call Pink Floyd arena rock by the time they released The Wall. And I still disagree that Aerosmith's sound had a wider influence than Boston's, but that's really nitpicking.

 

And Queen were arena rock in the second half of the 70's. "We Are the Champions" is an arena rock anthem.

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Rocks wins. But Smokin' is probably my favorite song from either record (great keyboard section is heavily influenced by Deep Purple or Jon Lord).

Peace of Mind is 'Bon Jovi' of the 70's though.

 

Woah! Wait a minute. Bon Jovi would never use big words like indecision or competition in their songs.

 

I meant musically it is Bon Jovi of the 70's.

 

Not even that. Bon Jovi's '80s sound was a derivative blend of hard rock and hair metal. In 1976, no one had ever heard anything like Boston's debut. In the world of hard rock, it's really never been equaled. Not even by Tom Scholz. While it's not particularly deep lyrically, its universal themes hit home perfectly with that incredibly big, pristine, earnest sound. Guitars never sounded like they'd come straight from outer space before then, as if recorded with alien technology. That sound had an instantly brandable, polished quality to it which was a strength for the band in the mid to late '70s but ultimately a curse beyond that. Hard rock/metal got meaner, darker and dirtier and Boston started to look like the nice guys trying to fit in with the cool kids (like Aerosmith) at the high school dance. Another reason that sound ultimately hurt Scholz is that there was really nowhere else to go with something that felt that finished. I think that's why subsequent Boston albums pale in comparison to the debut. Heaven is finished and unchangeable and any repetition of it seems redundant not to mention too much of it inevitably starts to feel oppressive.

 

But '70s Aerosmith was no slouch either. The playing and writing was just so nasty and funky how could you not love and respect it? They're one of the most influential hard rock bands ever (much more influential than Boston) and not the least of that influence is the crotch-rock element of their songs. What hyper-sexualized '80s hair metal band wasn't influenced by Aerosmith?

 

....erm. I disagree with a few points here.

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

Second, but related to the first, The hair metal bands aren't what wiped out Boston's later career. Tom Sholz did that himself. His perfectionism was what lead to the brilliance of that debut, but was also the reason Don't Look Back didn't live up to it. The label forced a second record out of the band before he was finished with it, and the results show this. On the third album (which I haven't heard btw) he was allowed to take all the time he needed, leading him not to release in until 86, long after AOR had passed its prime, and a new Boston record wasn't a very big deal in the public eye. Three albums in 10 years might be fine by today's standards, but it was no recipe for increased success in the 70s and 80s. Aside from Boston, though, AOR thrived well into the 80s. I Want To Know What Love Is from Foreigner, Mr. Roboto from Styx, Separate Ways from Journey, Africa from Toto, and Can't Fight This Feeling from REO Speedwagon soundtracked the first half of the decade for many, right alongside early hair metal records like Shout At The Devil and Pyromania. To my understanding, these same bands would have likely seen greater success in the late 80s if not for most of them splintering apart. Ultimately, AOR didn't get overtaken by hair metal for sounding too "innocent," but mostly its lead artists found themselves incapable of surviving the 80s intact enough to score more hits.

 

I do agree that Aerosmith were on fire in the 70s though, and that they were incredibly influential on rock music for decades to come. I'm not sure they were more influential than Boston, though. To me they're probably equally as important to the development of rock.

 

Arena rock, as with any musical trend back then, died out because labels saturated the airwaves with it so much that the public got burned out on it and stopped buying the records. Sure some of the really big bands still had legs after its expiration date but new bands in that style stopped being signed because it had already begun to be taken over by newer musical trends. That's how this stuff works. But sometimes elements of earlier musical styles go on live in newer trends and genres.

 

I'd drop the AOR term because it casts too wide a net for the type of music we're talking about. What Boston, Styx, Journey, Foreigner, et al., did can be more specifically termed arena rock or stadium rock, or pejoratively as corporate rock (or hilariously as dad-rock). As you know, it was a highly produced, highly commercialized anthemic form of watered down hard rock with quasi-prog elements that featured lots of big, harmonized choruses, crunchy power ballads and a grandiose pre-fab sound designed for nothing smaller than an arena sized audience. I imagine seeing a Styx tribute band in a club these days might prove a bit disorienting.

 

I'm not saying Boston wasn't influential (I'm also not saying they weren't a great band). I agree with you that their blockbuster debut kicked off arena rock's successful run but let's not forget that run only lasted about 7 years if that (actually a decent run). I'll also posit that the genre was arguably already creatively spent by 1980 but that's just my opinion.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to prefer Boston and other arena rock bands over Arosmith. All I'm saying here is that Aerosmith's raunchy, edgy brand of bluesy hard rock has proved more versatile and longer lasting than Boston's big, positive arena rock sound. 70s Aerosmith's sardonic, gritty attitude coupled with Perry's street level toolkit are much more blendable with punk, hip hop, grunge, metal, even pop, than arena rock ever was. Where did arena rock's influence end up? Probably the purgatory of today's modern country.

 

But arena rock was actually pretty square from the get-go as it was mainly marketed to mass audiences for its radio friendly feel-good songs. There was no sense of danger to it. That's never cool. With this built-in squareness...damn...arena rock arguably had more in common with broadway musicals than gritty rock and roll. I mean, Brad Delp sounds as if the best singer in the high school glee club decided to try out this rock 'n' roll thing.

 

I'd like to see the source where Cobain cites Boston as an influence. The beginnings of Smells Like Teen Spirit went down like this according to Kurt:

 

 

When Kurt Cobain first came up with the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” riff, he didn’t think he had anything that special. “It was such a cliched riff,” he said. “It was so close to a Boston riff or ‘Louie Louie.’ When I came up with the guitar part, Krist [Novoselic] looked at me and said, ‘That is so ridiculous.'”

 

After the song became an enormous hit, many others pointed out that the main riff did indeed sound like Boston’s “More Than a Feeling,” even though they’re in different keys. They probably weren’t similar enough for Boston’s Tom Scholz to file any sort of legal action, but he said he didn’t mind at all.

 

Source

 

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And neither is this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=R3XIGon2RjY

 

On the other hand, he states a real appreciation for Aerosmith in this interview while generally dismissing most other arena rock bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalY3kgGz_M

 

Cobain would never dream of writing a song in the early 90s that had a pronounced influence of a band as uncool as Boston (whether he liked the band or not. Btw, Smells Like Teen Spirit does not sound like Boston). His band mates would have laughed him right out of Nirvana had he tried to squeeze a "guilty pleasure" like that by them. This is because when you go off-script with your hipster peers and the presiding hipsterati of the day, you tank your career before it even begins, especially in those days when labels were still trying to capitalize on emerging new scenes and styles. But that's only if you decide buy into what hipsters (and eventually A&R men) expect of you. When you do that, you self-censor your musical wrong-think.

 

AOR is a pretty accepted term around TRF to describe that crop of bands, and I prefer it to arena rock which always struck me as a bit diminishing. I’d still argue Boston and the AOR sound went on to influence the production value and radio readiness of everything from Pyromania to Nevermind, if not necessarily the music. And as far as Kurt being seen as uncool....it’s my understanding he bonded with Dave Grohl on the phone over their shared love of ABBA and Queen. Kurt liked good pop music, and this is evident in his streamlined pop songwriting.

 

I speculated in so many words that he may have been afraid of being seen as uncool if he injected overt influences of uncool bands he may have liked into Nirvana's music. While Kurt could write a catchy tune or two, Nirvana never stepped very far outside the alt-rock/grunge box. Imo, this is probably because scenesters and hipster music critics are the biggest music bigots in the world and will shame free thinking artists mercilessly until they bow to their "superior" taste in music. Remember how they tried doing that to Rush in the '70s? Thankfully they had the backbone to ignore them. But then again, the '70s didn't have the same level of musical tribalism and segregation that was occurring in the 80s and 90s when genre prisons started becoming the rule.

 

There's no question Tom Scholz's studio innovations have influenced the entire recording industry for the better but the thrust of my argument was that the influence of his music didn't really extend far beyond the arena rock era. Not in a big way anyway,

 

Sorry but arena rock is the correct term for this debate. AOR includes too many different styles that are not applicable here.

 

Fair enough. Maybe if his scene mates had been kinder, Kurt would've hired a horn section and keyboard player for In Utero. That's an exaggeration for humor, but I do agree he could've felt unsupported in his non-grungy musical interests.

 

 

About the AOR/Arena Rock thing. I don't understand the difference. AOR is Boston, Journey, Styx, Kansas, Toto, REO Speedwagon, Foreigner, etc. Arena rock is all the same plus maybe Queen, The Who, Kiss, and a few others.

 

Here's All Music's definition of arena rock. Wikipedia's is more or less the same.

 

Arena Rock developed in the mid-'70s, when hard rock and heavy metal bands began to gain popularity. The music became more commercially oriented and radio-friendly, boasting slick productions and anthemic choruses, both on their hard rock numbers and their sweeping power ballads. Most of these bands earned their following through saturation airplay on FM radio and through constant touring. Bands like Journey, REO Speedwagon, Boston, Foreigner, and Styx became some of the most popular bands of the mid- to late '70s through this circuit.

 

You can also technically stick Aerosmith with the arena rock label. They just happened to have a sound that had a more far reaching influence.

 

AOR is an FM radio format that covers more ground. For example, it would feel kind of weird calling Zappa, Tull, Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd or Prince arena rock bands even though most of them played their share of arenas.

 

I would definitely call Pink Floyd arena rock by the time they released The Wall. And I still disagree that Aerosmith's sound had a wider influence than Boston's, but that's really nitpicking.

 

And Queen were arena rock in the second half of the 70's. "We Are the Champions" is an arena rock anthem.

 

...yes. We Will Rock You practically invented the style.

[GeddyRulz]

The Boston album is maybe the best debut album by ANY group. I picked it.

 

I liked 70s era Aerosmith, but everything they've done from their late 80s comeback to today sounds alike to me... and I don't care for any of it. Overrated band, if you ask me.

[greyfriar]

Besides the Boston debut...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB1J9vABzuk

[Three Eyes]

The Boston album is maybe the best debut album by ANY group. I picked it.

 

I liked 70s era Aerosmith, but everything they've done from their late 80s comeback to today sounds alike to me... and I don't care for any of it. Overrated band, if you ask me.

 

That's more or less how I feel about Aerosmith. 70s era great - 80s and beyond, yuck.

[Three Eyes]

Rocks wins. But Smokin' is probably my favorite song from either record (great keyboard section is heavily influenced by Deep Purple or Jon Lord).

Peace of Mind is 'Bon Jovi' of the 70's though.

 

Woah! Wait a minute. Bon Jovi would never use big words like indecision or competition in their songs.

 

I meant musically it is Bon Jovi of the 70's.

 

Not even that. Bon Jovi's '80s sound was a derivative blend of hard rock and hair metal. In 1976, no one had ever heard anything like Boston's debut. In the world of hard rock, it's really never been equaled. Not even by Tom Scholz. While it's not particularly deep lyrically, its universal themes hit home perfectly with that incredibly big, pristine, earnest sound. Guitars never sounded like they'd come straight from outer space before then, as if recorded with alien technology. That sound had an instantly brandable, polished quality to it which was a strength for the band in the mid to late '70s but ultimately a curse beyond that. Hard rock/metal got meaner, darker and dirtier and Boston started to look like the nice guys trying to fit in with the cool kids (like Aerosmith) at the high school dance. Another reason that sound ultimately hurt Scholz is that there was really nowhere else to go with something that felt that finished. I think that's why subsequent Boston albums pale in comparison to the debut. Heaven is finished and unchangeable and any repetition of it seems redundant not to mention too much of it inevitably starts to feel oppressive.

 

But '70s Aerosmith was no slouch either. The playing and writing was just so nasty and funky how could you not love and respect it? They're one of the most influential hard rock bands ever (much more influential than Boston) and not the least of that influence is the crotch-rock element of their songs. What hyper-sexualized '80s hair metal band wasn't influenced by Aerosmith?

 

....erm. I disagree with a few points here.

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

Second, but related to the first, The hair metal bands aren't what wiped out Boston's later career. Tom Sholz did that himself. His perfectionism was what lead to the brilliance of that debut, but was also the reason Don't Look Back didn't live up to it. The label forced a second record out of the band before he was finished with it, and the results show this. On the third album (which I haven't heard btw) he was allowed to take all the time he needed, leading him not to release in until 86, long after AOR had passed its prime, and a new Boston record wasn't a very big deal in the public eye. Three albums in 10 years might be fine by today's standards, but it was no recipe for increased success in the 70s and 80s. Aside from Boston, though, AOR thrived well into the 80s. I Want To Know What Love Is from Foreigner, Mr. Roboto from Styx, Separate Ways from Journey, Africa from Toto, and Can't Fight This Feeling from REO Speedwagon soundtracked the first half of the decade for many, right alongside early hair metal records like Shout At The Devil and Pyromania. To my understanding, these same bands would have likely seen greater success in the late 80s if not for most of them splintering apart. Ultimately, AOR didn't get overtaken by hair metal for sounding too "innocent," but mostly its lead artists found themselves incapable of surviving the 80s intact enough to score more hits.

 

I do agree that Aerosmith were on fire in the 70s though, and that they were incredibly influential on rock music for decades to come. I'm not sure they were more influential than Boston, though. To me they're probably equally as important to the development of rock.

 

Arena rock, as with any musical trend back then, died out because labels saturated the airwaves with it so much that the public got burned out on it and stopped buying the records. Sure some of the really big bands still had legs after its expiration date but new bands in that style stopped being signed because it had already begun to be taken over by newer musical trends. That's how this stuff works. But sometimes elements of earlier musical styles go on live in newer trends and genres.

 

I'd drop the AOR term because it casts too wide a net for the type of music we're talking about. What Boston, Styx, Journey, Foreigner, et al., did can be more specifically termed arena rock or stadium rock, or pejoratively as corporate rock (or hilariously as dad-rock). As you know, it was a highly produced, highly commercialized anthemic form of watered down hard rock with quasi-prog elements that featured lots of big, harmonized choruses, crunchy power ballads and a grandiose pre-fab sound designed for nothing smaller than an arena sized audience. I imagine seeing a Styx tribute band in a club these days might prove a bit disorienting.

 

I'm not saying Boston wasn't influential (I'm also not saying they weren't a great band). I agree with you that their blockbuster debut kicked off arena rock's successful run but let's not forget that run only lasted about 7 years if that (actually a decent run). I'll also posit that the genre was arguably already creatively spent by 1980 but that's just my opinion.

 

For what it's worth, I tend to prefer Boston and other arena rock bands over Arosmith. All I'm saying here is that Aerosmith's raunchy, edgy brand of bluesy hard rock has proved more versatile and longer lasting than Boston's big, positive arena rock sound. 70s Aerosmith's sardonic, gritty attitude coupled with Perry's street level toolkit are much more blendable with punk, hip hop, grunge, metal, even pop, than arena rock ever was. Where did arena rock's influence end up? Probably the purgatory of today's modern country.

 

But arena rock was actually pretty square from the get-go as it was mainly marketed to mass audiences for its radio friendly feel-good songs. There was no sense of danger to it. That's never cool. With this built-in squareness...damn...arena rock arguably had more in common with broadway musicals than gritty rock and roll. I mean, Brad Delp sounds as if the best singer in the high school glee club decided to try out this rock 'n' roll thing.

 

I'd like to see the source where Cobain cites Boston as an influence. The beginnings of Smells Like Teen Spirit went down like this according to Kurt:

 

 

When Kurt Cobain first came up with the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” riff, he didn’t think he had anything that special. “It was such a cliched riff,” he said. “It was so close to a Boston riff or ‘Louie Louie.’ When I came up with the guitar part, Krist [Novoselic] looked at me and said, ‘That is so ridiculous.'”

 

After the song became an enormous hit, many others pointed out that the main riff did indeed sound like Boston’s “More Than a Feeling,” even though they’re in different keys. They probably weren’t similar enough for Boston’s Tom Scholz to file any sort of legal action, but he said he didn’t mind at all.

 

Source

 

 

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And neither is this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=66&v=R3XIGon2RjY

 

On the other hand, he states a real appreciation for Aerosmith in this interview while generally dismissing most other arena rock bands:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalY3kgGz_M

 

Cobain would never dream of writing a song in the early 90s that had a pronounced influence of a band as uncool as Boston (whether he liked the band or not. Btw, Smells Like Teen Spirit does not sound like Boston). His band mates would have laughed him right out of Nirvana had he tried to squeeze a "guilty pleasure" like that by them. This is because when you go off-script with your hipster peers and the presiding hipsterati of the day, you tank your career before it even begins, especially in those days when labels were still trying to capitalize on emerging new scenes and styles. But that's only if you decide buy into what hipsters (and eventually A&R men) expect of you. When you do that, you self-censor your musical wrong-think.

 

AOR is a pretty accepted term around TRF to describe that crop of bands, and I prefer it to arena rock which always struck me as a bit diminishing. I’d still argue Boston and the AOR sound went on to influence the production value and radio readiness of everything from Pyromania to Nevermind, if not necessarily the music. And as far as Kurt being seen as uncool....it’s my understanding he bonded with Dave Grohl on the phone over their shared love of ABBA and Queen. Kurt liked good pop music, and this is evident in his streamlined pop songwriting.

 

I speculated in so many words that he may have been afraid of being seen as uncool if he injected overt influences of uncool bands he may have liked into Nirvana's music. While Kurt could write a catchy tune or two, Nirvana never stepped very far outside the alt-rock/grunge box. Imo, this is probably because scenesters and hipster music critics are the biggest music bigots in the world and will shame free thinking artists mercilessly until they bow to their "superior" taste in music. Remember how they tried doing that to Rush in the '70s? Thankfully they had the backbone to ignore them. But then again, the '70s didn't have the same level of musical tribalism and segregation that was occurring in the 80s and 90s when genre prisons started becoming the rule.

 

There's no question Tom Scholz's studio innovations have influenced the entire recording industry for the better but the thrust of my argument was that the influence of his music didn't really extend far beyond the arena rock era. Not in a big way anyway,

 

Sorry but arena rock is the correct term for this debate. AOR includes too many different styles that are not applicable here.

 

Fair enough. Maybe if his scene mates had been kinder, Kurt would've hired a horn section and keyboard player for In Utero. That's an exaggeration for humor, but I do agree he could've felt unsupported in his non-grungy musical interests.

 

 

About the AOR/Arena Rock thing. I don't understand the difference. AOR is Boston, Journey, Styx, Kansas, Toto, REO Speedwagon, Foreigner, etc. Arena rock is all the same plus maybe Queen, The Who, Kiss, and a few others.

 

Here's All Music's definition of arena rock. Wikipedia's is more or less the same.

 

Arena Rock developed in the mid-'70s, when hard rock and heavy metal bands began to gain popularity. The music became more commercially oriented and radio-friendly, boasting slick productions and anthemic choruses, both on their hard rock numbers and their sweeping power ballads. Most of these bands earned their following through saturation airplay on FM radio and through constant touring. Bands like Journey, REO Speedwagon, Boston, Foreigner, and Styx became some of the most popular bands of the mid- to late '70s through this circuit.

 

You can also technically stick Aerosmith with the arena rock label. They just happened to have a sound that had a more far reaching influence.

 

AOR is an FM radio format that covers more ground. For example, it would feel kind of weird calling Zappa, Tull, Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd or Prince arena rock bands even though most of them played their share of arenas.

 

I would definitely call Pink Floyd arena rock by the time they released The Wall. And I still disagree that Aerosmith's sound had a wider influence than Boston's, but that's really nitpicking.

 

And Queen were arena rock in the second half of the 70's. "We Are the Champions" is an arena rock anthem.

 

Queen definitely was but they also stood apart in their uniqueness from more typical arena rock bands. One of the greatest bands ever.

[Derek19]

Out of both bands, and groups, I chose by voting for "Boston". I've liked, and enjoyed them, and not "Aerosmith". Edited May 27, 2019 by Derek19

[goose]

 

^^^ What makes More Than A Feeling such a great song. A fantastic entry in the Great Songs series.

 

Lorraine, a great example of recording/production technique.

Edited July 23, 2019 by goose

[Krystal]

The Cars were formed in Boston in 1976.

[Texas King]

 

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

 

Boston were very influential on Bon Jovi too.

 

See this:

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/bon-jovi-mn0000069534/related

[Entre_Perpetuo]

First, Boston was extremely influential on the AOR bands that started taking over the radio. Journey, Styx, Kansas, Foreigner, REO Speedwagon, Toto..every one of those bands owes part of their commercial success to Boston. Not just for defining the AOR sound (a decidedly pop rock style rooted in prog and hard rock, but groomed and streamlined for radio), but for proving how successful that sound could be. Notice how none of the bands I mentioned saw much commercial success before 1976, the year of Boston. Beyond their immediate influence on the AOR scene, but I dare say that debut upped production standards on rock music across the board, and certainly anything that made it to radio, including the hair metal that would take over during the early 80s. And believe it for not, I've read Kurt Cobain cites More Than A Feeling (and Boston's debut in general) as a major influence, and that style of chordal riffing part of the inspiration behind Smells Like Teen Spirit.

 

 

Boston were very influential on Bon Jovi too.

 

See this:

http://www.allmusic....0069534/related

 

Talk about a thread bump. Why did i never vote in this poll?

[Entre_Perpetuo]

After looking back over the whole thread and finding I never gave a reason for not voting, I've decided to vote for Boston here. I listened to Rocks semi recently and it was great. I haven't listened to Boston in a good while.

[Segue Myles]

Boston

 

Crazy thing is, they released some killer albums later...this makes them look shit.

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Boston

 

Crazy thing is, they released some killer albums later...this makes them look shit.

 

Don't Look Back would certainly be top shelf in many band's discographies, but not in Boston's.