Are The Failures Of An Artist The Most Revealing ?? ( Suggestions Wanted )

[Lucas]

Perhaps "failure" is not the right word .. In science, it's the great unknown - the never ending "why" and push for understanding .. Experimentation ... But in art, it is often written off as failure ..

 

In certain circumstances, can a "successful" album simply be seen as giving the audience what it expects ??

 

Reading the thread about owning an artist's entire catalog got me thinking .. There is a lot of music that I don't know about, and some of that is because what I am familiar with from certain performers is what is well known - and perhaps I am not digging deep enough, writing off a performer simply because the well known music has not struck me as special ..

 

And when I say "failure", I am talking about the albums some artists have put out, and for whatever reason, whether it be from the fans, the media or the artist themselves, that album or period has been shunned or written off as a misfire ..

 

But that can be the most interesting or revealing of a career .. It can also be a springboard for understanding where the performer is coming from ..

 

Two examples are Neil Young's "Trans" period and KISS' The Elder .. both came from left field and stand alone in their respective catalogs ...

 

Do the failures sometimes give a better insight to the performer ?? .. And what are some other examples ?? Some bands and performers have extensive catalogs that in which at some point, they must have tried something .... I don't mean just the natural progression of a band ie Signals, Grace, Power Windows - I mean a one or two album period that was completely unexpected ...

 

 

 

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Edited October 30, 2016 by Lucas

[condemned2bfree]

:goodone: Wish I could like this post a thousand times, and that there were more posts like this.

 

Well failures, are as subjective as art, but from what I understand, your post is suggesting, that an album that deviates from an artists typical style -that will likely bomb in terms of sales popularity - is viewed as a failure.

 

But yes my view is that it can be extremely revealing and not necessarily a failure, and possibly far more rewarding, for engagement. I have always looked at it like this, and I suppose its like the digging deeper bit, you mention. That is I prefer seeing art before it is totally completed. It shows more of the thought process, bare,unforgiving, its just more damn exciting! The finished art, can be as the artist intended, yet concealing, in aspects.

And my analogy is similar to what you suggest, I feel.

Bands and performers put out albums that crash sales wise, due to a stylistic or songwriting change, but go a long way to giving a rounded insight to themselves as a performer. Always think of the sentiment in natural science. Must be difficult to balance creative forces with certain demands, that put an artist in the position they are in.

 

I embrace artistic anomalies and frailties that come along from time to time, it can be satisfying and an interesting new perspective - like you say gives an insight to a performer..

Edited October 30, 2016 by condemned2bfree

[vaportrailer]

any musician/writer etc worth their salt should always be trying to do something new, as opposed to meaningless repetition.

Lucas, I don't know how you feel about jazz, but Miles Davis has done some amazing, less-than-amazing, and quite lame stuff that be of interest. (Bitches Brew and Live Evil are pretty good places to start as they sound the most 'rockish').

Sly Stone is another one that seems to fit this bill.

Syd Barrett's solo albums are totally revealing, but also very depressing for what they reveal.

oh yeah: cough - Vapor Trails - cough :)

 

An interesting question which I don't think I've answered. Will have to give it some more thought!

[catherine]

Lucas, very good question. I guess my comment on St. Anger is telling in this respect. My view on that is that I am truly drawn to artists that aren't content to do the same thing over and over. Art is an expression of the soul and if that is not growing and changing it is no longer alive. Now sometimes those experiments don't click with me or where I am, but I can still respect that they did what they believed in. I know I may have jested a bit to harshly, but it's how I feel about that particular album. I tried to like it but it just didn't work for me. On the other hand sometimes those experimental albums can be among my favorites; COS, Vapor Trails, Led Zeppelin III, Heritage are a few examples.

 

So I honestly don't see them as failures per se, I assume the artists loved what they were doing and are happy with it, but possibly if a large segment of their fan base didn't relate to what they were doing it wasn't a "success" commercially.

 

ETA: I would venture to guess that those albums do reveal a new side than had been previously explored and it may be the case that if it weren't, any new material might run the risk of becoming less than genuine. Does that make sense?

Edited October 30, 2016 by catherine

[bluefox4000]

Art is a funny thing. I have albums by my fav artists that i absolutly hate. i mean loath, lol. but at the same time i have to step out of myself and Say wait.....while this was being made. they weren't making a "bad" album.

 

they most likely were trying to build another facet to their story and had the guts to put it out there.

 

now their opinions on their art may change too.......as we've seen from many many artists. but at the time of creation......i have to believe that they believed in their art. otherwise it wouldn't be here for us to explore.......and bitch about, lol

[djflex]

Perhaps in the sense it makes the artist focus on returning to the things that made him who they are after a poor but rxperimental release. For example supercollider by megadeth was just horrible imo. Then they returned with a couple better efforts in the next two. Those two releases set up arguably one of their best works with dystopia.

 

 

Not sure if my point makes sense or not, but an interrsting thread

[Segue Myles]

Art is a funny thing. I have albums by my fav artists that i absolutly hate. i mean loath, lol. but at the same time i have to step out of myself and Say wait.....while this was being made. they weren't making a "bad" album.

 

they most likely were trying to build another facet to their story and had the guts to put it out there.

 

now their opinions on their art may change too.......as we've seen from many many artists. but at the time of creation......i have to believe that they believed in their art. otherwise it wouldn't be here for us to explore.......and bitch about, lol

 

One album I swear most of the band died inside to have seen released was Kilroy.

 

Everything from that time and since then makes me question how much was sincere about that album. I hate it so much but even if I remove my opinion I still think it's a piece of junk from start to finish. On every level. Just so bad. Even if it was a parody album I would hate it so much.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Segue Myles

[bluefox4000]

Art is a funny thing. I have albums by my fav artists that i absolutly hate. i mean loath, lol. but at the same time i have to step out of myself and Say wait.....while this was being made. they weren't making a "bad" album.

 

they most likely were trying to build another facet to their story and had the guts to put it out there.

 

now their opinions on their art may change too.......as we've seen from many many artists. but at the time of creation......i have to believe that they believed in their art. otherwise it wouldn't be here for us to explore.......and bitch about, lol

 

One album I swear most of the band died inside to have seen released was Kilroy.

 

Everything from that time and since then makes me question how much was sincere about that album. I hate it so much but even if I remove my opinion I still think it's a piece of junk from start to finish. On every level. Just so bad. Even if it was a parody album I would hate it so much.

 

well.......that one is interesting because it seems to be more a deyoung vheicle then anything else.

 

i hate it......it's stupid. but i could see him being very pumped over it........i really could see him and him alone loving it, lol

 

what has he said about it i wonder?

 

Mick

[goose]

Great thread idea!

 

 

I'm oddly often drawn to albums that are considered their (relative) failures. Examples include The Doors Soft Parade, Suzanne Vega's 99.9 F, and RUSH's Vapor Trails. I think maybe there's an honesty to them that I like.

Edited October 30, 2016 by goose

[Segue Myles]

Art is a funny thing. I have albums by my fav artists that i absolutly hate. i mean loath, lol. but at the same time i have to step out of myself and Say wait.....while this was being made. they weren't making a "bad" album.

 

they most likely were trying to build another facet to their story and had the guts to put it out there.

 

now their opinions on their art may change too.......as we've seen from many many artists. but at the time of creation......i have to believe that they believed in their art. otherwise it wouldn't be here for us to explore.......and bitch about, lol

 

One album I swear most of the band died inside to have seen released was Kilroy.

 

Everything from that time and since then makes me question how much was sincere about that album. I hate it so much but even if I remove my opinion I still think it's a piece of junk from start to finish. On every level. Just so bad. Even if it was a parody album I would hate it so much.

 

well.......that one is interesting because it seems to be more a deyoung vheicle then anything else.

 

i hate it......it's stupid. but i could see him being very pumped over it........i really could see him and him alone loving it, lol

 

what has he said about it i wonder?

 

Mick

 

That's what I mean...as a band effort I can't see the band as a whole being proud of it.

 

It clearly stinks.

 

Like...oh my word how could the band that gave us The Grand Illusion become a joke like this...it did for a little while make me wonder if this was a band I could truly love.

 

I do. But it stops after album 10. Everything after Kilroy sounds to me like a pitiful attempt to apologise for this filth and win back fans. It's really sad to my ears.

[Segue Myles]

Great thread idea!

 

 

I'm oddly often drawn to albums that are considered their (relative) failures. Examples include The Doors Soft Parade, Suzanne Vega's 99.9 F, and RUSH's Vapor Trails. I think maybe there's an honesty to them that I like.

 

Never listened to Suzanne Vega (should I?). But those two other albums I love a lot.

 

I actually thought that The Soft Parade was a fan favourite when I first heard it. I thought it was so grand.

 

Then I went online and discovered it was anything but...

[bluefox4000]

Great thread idea!

 

 

I'm oddly often drawn to albums that are considered their (relative) failures. Examples include The Doors Soft Parade, Suzanne Vega's 99.9 F, and RUSH's Vapor Trails. I think maybe there's an honesty to them that I like.

 

i agree here Goose me too.

 

one album that fans AND the artist dismiss is Billy Joel's Streetlife Saranade.

 

I love that record so much.......and billy thinks not, lol

 

Mick

[goose]

Great thread idea!

 

 

I'm oddly often drawn to albums that are considered their (relative) failures. Examples include The Doors Soft Parade, Suzanne Vega's 99.9 F, and RUSH's Vapor Trails. I think maybe there's an honesty to them that I like.

 

Never listened to Suzanne Vega (should I?). But those two other albums I love a lot.

 

I actually thought that The Soft Parade was a fan favourite when I first heard it. I thought it was so grand.

 

Then I went online and discovered it was anything but...

I remember a guy gave me his copy of Soft Parade to listen to. We later met and he asked me what I thought...and before i could answer he said, condescendingly, "You probably liked it."

 

I did like it. His comment made me like it more. :P

 

You should check out Suzanne Vega. She's and interesting artist. Here's the album 99.9 F...

 

[Ancient Ways]

Art is a funny thing. I have albums by my fav artists that i absolutly hate. i mean loath, lol. but at the same time i have to step out of myself and Say wait.....while this was being made. they weren't making a "bad" album.

 

they most likely were trying to build another facet to their story and had the guts to put it out there.

 

now their opinions on their art may change too.......as we've seen from many many artists. but at the time of creation......i have to believe that they believed in their art. otherwise it wouldn't be here for us to explore.......and bitch about, lol

 

One album I swear most of the band died inside to have seen released was Kilroy.

 

Everything from that time and since then makes me question how much was sincere about that album. I hate it so much but even if I remove my opinion I still think it's a piece of junk from start to finish. On every level. Just so bad. Even if it was a parody album I would hate it so much.

I enjoyed the album and most people I knew at the time did as well. Concept albums weren't very rare at the time and it wasn't considered that unusual since we all were aware of the kind of music Dennis loved doing. To show how it wasn't universally despised my high school adopted "Don't let it end" as our senior song.

[treeduck]

http://i.imgur.com/hFyLJxf.jpg

[Digital Dad]

Perhaps in the sense it makes the artist focus on returning to the things that made him who they are after a poor but rxperimental release. For example supercollider by megadeth was just horrible imo. Then they returned with a couple better efforts in the next two. Those two releases set up arguably one of their best works with dystopia.

 

 

Not sure if my point makes sense or not, but an interrsting thread

 

Supercollider was the album before Dystopia.

[custom55]

Aerosmith - Draw The Line ( My least favorite Aerosmith album )

 

The beginning of the end for Aerosmith V1.0. The Toxic Twins took over the band, and their music and stage performances went into a tailspin.

 

 

Ouch.

 

 

http://youtu.be/rjA9Po6cKMM

Edited October 30, 2016 by custom55

[treeduck]

Aerosmith - Draw The Line ( My least favorite Aerosmith album )

 

The beginning of the end for Aerosmith V1.0. The Toxic Twins took over the band, and their music and stage performances went into a tailspin.

 

 

Ouch.

 

 

http://youtu.be/rjA9Po6cKMM

It's still a good album though I would say.

[djflex]

Perhaps in the sense it makes the artist focus on returning to the things that made him who they are after a poor but rxperimental release. For example supercollider by megadeth was just horrible imo. Then they returned with a couple better efforts in the next two. Those two releases set up arguably one of their best works with dystopia.

 

 

Not sure if my point makes sense or not, but an interrsting thread

 

Supercollider was the album before Dystopia.

 

Oops you are right. It sucked so bad i forgot when it even came out lol

[Rick N. Backer]

What immediately comes to mind is Their Satanic Majesties Request, the Stones' blatant Sgt. Pepper ripoff. In the right mood, I enjoy it. It's something different. Tellingly, they went on to peel off 5 of the best pure rock and roll albums ever right after TSMR.

[JohnnyBlaze]

http://i.imgur.com/hFyLJxf.jpg

Gwen

[treeduck]

http://i.imgur.com/hFyLJxf.jpg

Gwen

Yeah it's Spider-Gwen and Spider-Woman.

[vaportrailer]

so I had something to say about "Lodger" by David Bowie, and how it's not well-liked and not cutting-edge etc, even though it still has all the major Bowie hallmarks: experimentation, left-of-center lyrical concerns, killer band, interesting chord structures, melodies etc - everything that people say is great about Bowie is on evidence on this record (er, cd. um, recording?) but yet it seems to be held in fairly low esteem by Bowie fans.

So I was going to say all this, and what a great record I think it is, and that, in a way, it's a perfect microcosm of whatever David Bowie is/was/etc,

And then I got distracted by Treeduck's post, which also has given me lots to ponder.

I like this TRF.

[Lucas]

so I had something to say about "Lodger" by David Bowie, and how it's not well-liked and not cutting-edge etc, even though it still has all the major Bowie hallmarks: experimentation, left-of-center lyrical concerns, killer band, interesting chord structures, melodies etc - everything that people say is great about Bowie is on evidence on this record (er, cd. um, recording?) but yet it seems to be held in fairly low esteem by Bowie fans.

So I was going to say all this, and what a great record I think it is, and that, in a way, it's a perfect microcosm of whatever David Bowie is/was/etc,

And then I got distracted by Treeduck's post, which also has given me lots to ponder.

I like this TRF.

 

I love Bowie, but I am not familiar with most of Lodger ... great choice, and I'm going to go listen ..

 

 

[treeduck]

so I had something to say about "Lodger" by David Bowie, and how it's not well-liked and not cutting-edge etc, even though it still has all the major Bowie hallmarks: experimentation, left-of-center lyrical concerns, killer band, interesting chord structures, melodies etc - everything that people say is great about Bowie is on evidence on this record (er, cd. um, recording?) but yet it seems to be held in fairly low esteem by Bowie fans.

So I was going to say all this, and what a great record I think it is, and that, in a way, it's a perfect microcosm of whatever David Bowie is/was/etc,

And then I got distracted by Treeduck's post, which also has given me lots to ponder.

I like this TRF.

 

I love Bowie, but I am not familiar with most of Lodger ... great choice, and I'm going to go listen ..

And right after that you better put on your warm coat and get along to your local late night record store and buy a copy! :madra: And if you can't do it tonight maybe you can get Donna Summer the bank clerk to buy it for you! :hi: