Amazing new crop circle

[Ancient Ways]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Aug 26 2012, 07:49 PM)

QUOTE (Ancient Ways @ Aug 26 2012, 06:39 PM) QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 06:44 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 03:41 PM) QUOTE (substancewithoutstyle @ Aug 26 2012, 12:40 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Aug 26 2012, 02:34 PM) Hackpen Hill (3), nr Broad Hinton. Wiltshire. Reported 26th August. I wonder how many people it took to make this in the dead of night.   The funny thing is, whenever you see people who try and recreate crop circles to show them as a hoax, they always look horribly clumsy compared to the actual crop circles. I can't imagine the kind of operation it would take for a bunch of hoaxers to make a design this intricate and beautiful and mathematically perfect in one night without waking the entire countryside. Humans are pretty smart. what makes anyone think this was done in one night? There isn;t people flying around looking for these things so it could be done over days or nights. The farmer will probably notice a gang of men with planks and spirit levels...   And if he's in on it?

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (Ancient Ways @ Aug 26 2012, 04:39 PM)

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 06:44 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 03:41 PM) QUOTE (substancewithoutstyle @ Aug 26 2012, 12:40 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Aug 26 2012, 02:34 PM) Hackpen Hill (3), nr Broad Hinton. Wiltshire. Reported 26th August. I wonder how many people it took to make this in the dead of night.   The funny thing is, whenever you see people who try and recreate crop circles to show them as a hoax, they always look horribly clumsy compared to the actual crop circles. I can't imagine the kind of operation it would take for a bunch of hoaxers to make a design this intricate and beautiful and mathematically perfect in one night without waking the entire countryside. Humans are pretty smart. what makes anyone think this was done in one night? There isn;t people flying around looking for these things so it could be done over days or nights. I don't know how it works, but they keep finding them so someone is looking for them somehow someway. Anyway, these arguments are pointless. Those who refuse to believe in anything other than hoaxers will never be convinced otherwise and vice-versa.

[Mr. Not]

QUOTE (substancewithoutstyle @ Aug 26 2012, 04:00 PM)

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 05:31 PM) QUOTE (substancewithoutstyle @ Aug 26 2012, 01:38 PM) QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 03:09 PM) Also: I don't believe there's other intelligent life out there... Certainly not in the Milky Way. Sorry Frank Drake! You don't like the Drake Equation?       Even if they were out there, how would they know we're here? Not to mention the fact that it would take an interminable amount of time for them to get here.   Anyway, people who think crop circles are made by extraterrestrials are just nuts! The DRAKE equation is fine, perhaps I just am in denial of sort. I haven't looked into the studies behind it enough to know the credibility of the predictions. The Milky Way is what, 106 Light Years long? And we're somewhere on the outer middle... You're right, it would take a lifetime to travel this place, so if there is life outside of this galaxy it's humanly impossible to travel that far... I mean, unless we find a way to prolong human life in the next few millenniums. The Drake equation suggests there a lot of intelligent life out there, but we've sent out signals (Hey Jude) and still have seen no signs. No one has tried to contact us either.   I'm by no means an educated astronomer, I dropped out of the class in fact (though I might take it again, and if not I still have the 10 dollar text book I'm keeping to read on a rainy day) but I don't believe there is any other form of intelligent life in the Milky Way for a few reasons.   Stephen Hawking on intelligent life: http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/...gical-life.html If they exist, advanced civilizations (as we define them), are probably so widely separated in space and time that they would never know of the existence of each other. Considering the Milky Way is 100,000 light years across, we probably shouldn't concern ourselves with being visited --unless they know something about the laws of physics we don't?!   There has been a lot of criticism of the Drake Equation. It makes far too many assumptions.   Wow, 100,000 light years? My memory must be very off, that or (less likely) I was given an incorrect fact.

[Principled Man]

QUOTE (substancewithoutstyle @ Aug 26 2012, 06:00 PM)

There has been a lot of criticism of the Drake Equation. It makes far too many assumptions.

 

Indeed....the majority of the "equation" is pure speculation. It's not even close to an educated guess. It's interesting, it's entertaining, but it's a farce of a scientific equation.

 

 

 

N = R x f(p) x n(e) x f(l) x f(i) x f[c] x L

 

where:

 

N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible

 

R = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy (knowable to some level of certainty)

f(p) = the fraction of those stars that have planets (not known at this time)

n(e) = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets (not known at this time)

f(l)= the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point (not known at this time)

f(i) = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life (not known at this time)

f[c] = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space (not known at this time)

L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space (not known at this time)

 

 

Sadly, we know next to nothing about the galaxy and how many star systems exist. We've only just started finding exoplanets. We don't even know what to look for.....we have only the life forms here on Earth as a guideline. What is out there could be beyond our comprehension, or it could be devoid of life. We just don't know......and that pisses me off!!!

[presto123]

For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that.

[t2s]

QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM)

For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that.

Links?

[presto123]

QUOTE (t2s @ Aug 26 2012, 10:25 PM)

QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. Links? It's on my Unsolved Mysteries DVD's about crop circles. The actual structure of the plant is changed and proven in the lab.

[Mr. Not]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 07:03 PM)

QUOTE (Ancient Ways @ Aug 26 2012, 04:39 PM) QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 06:44 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 03:41 PM) QUOTE (substancewithoutstyle @ Aug 26 2012, 12:40 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Aug 26 2012, 02:34 PM) Hackpen Hill (3), nr Broad Hinton. Wiltshire. Reported 26th August. I wonder how many people it took to make this in the dead of night.   The funny thing is, whenever you see people who try and recreate crop circles to show them as a hoax, they always look horribly clumsy compared to the actual crop circles. I can't imagine the kind of operation it would take for a bunch of hoaxers to make a design this intricate and beautiful and mathematically perfect in one night without waking the entire countryside. Humans are pretty smart. what makes anyone think this was done in one night? There isn;t people flying around looking for these things so it could be done over days or nights. I don't know how it works, but they keep finding them so someone is looking for them somehow someway. Anyway, these arguments are pointless. Those who refuse to believe in anything other than hoaxers will never be convinced otherwise and vice-versa. Could be a coincidence when a search copter was out or something of the sort. It's definitely not pointless to speculate and many people can be enlightened about these being man-made (even if they don't admit it).   Common sense indicating these Crop Circles are most likely man-made, and definitely not made by an extra terrestrial force. -Some people are great artists, planners, etc. and could easily pull this stuff off. Amazing as it is, you can simply see it as another art-form, a complicated one at that. -The designs are that of what stereotypical alien signals. This is just man's perception--a tall tale even--of what alien signals would look like. We have no idea what aliens look like, if they even are out there. We just draw assumptions, drawing them out to look similar to us, or variations of organisms on this earth. -Finally, if these crop circles were put here by aliens, they'd have to have force-breaking technology and above human intelligence to get away with putting these symbols here and not get caught. And if is this case, what's the motive? Most astrobiologists think that an alien encounter would be violent or significant. A poke at our crops isn't either of those.

[Mr. Not]

QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:27 PM)

QUOTE (t2s @ Aug 26 2012, 10:25 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. Links? It's on my Unsolved Mysteries DVD's about crop circles. The actual structure of the plant is changed and proven in the lab. Here it is: http://youtu.be/sczAHma5wu4

[Mr. Not]

N dG T on UFOs:

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM)

For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that.

It doesn't matter. For those who don't want to believe in anything supernatural, much less extraterrestrial, things like facts make no difference. They will find a way to explain things away that in their worldview cannot exist. Any information that would challenge this is discredited and invalid.

[Mr. Not]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 08:47 PM)

QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. It doesn't matter. For those who don't want to believe in anything supernatural, much less extraterrestrial, things like facts make no difference. They will find a way to explain things away that in their worldview cannot exist. Any information that would challenge this is discredited and invalid. No. There are just several explanations and theories, many which are more plausible.

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 08:48 PM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 08:47 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. It doesn't matter. For those who don't want to believe in anything supernatural, much less extraterrestrial, things like facts make no difference. They will find a way to explain things away that in their worldview cannot exist. Any information that would challenge this is discredited and invalid. No. There are just several explanations and theories, many which are more plausible. If you say so. In my experience, people who don't believe in anything supernatural will always find some alternative explanation to show how these things can't exist, even if the explanation is significantly more farfetched (and it often is) than the one they're trying to refute.

[Mr. Not]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 09:11 PM)

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 08:48 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 08:47 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. It doesn't matter. For those who don't want to believe in anything supernatural, much less extraterrestrial, things like facts make no difference. They will find a way to explain things away that in their worldview cannot exist. Any information that would challenge this is discredited and invalid. No. There are just several explanations and theories, many which are more plausible. If you say so. In my experience, people who don't believe in anything supernatural will always find some alternative explanation to show how these things can't exist, even if the explanation is significantly more farfetched (and it often is) than the one they're trying to refute. What it comes down to is, simply put your trust in what the pros say (there your best bet, they've been studying these things all their lives).   Funny how often we will come up with are own supernatural theories instead of waiting for the facts. The skeptic side is the safe side; the sky isn't falling yet.

[JohnnyBlaze]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Aug 27 2012, 08:08 AM)

QUOTE (substancewithoutstyle @ Aug 26 2012, 06:04 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Aug 26 2012, 05:59 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 05:53 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Aug 26 2012, 03:51 PM) QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 05:31 PM) The Milky Way is what, 106 Light Years long? And we're somewhere on the outer middle... You're right, it would take a lifetime to travel this place, A bit more than a lifetime...   The Voyager spacecraft is traveling away from the Sun at a rate of 17.3 km/s. If Voyager were to travel to the center of our Galaxy, it would take more than 450,000,000 years to travel the 8 kpc. If it could travel at the speed of light, an impossibility due to Special Relativity, it would still take over 26,000 years to arrive!   At 17.3 km/s, it would take Voyager over 1,700,000,000 years to traverse the entire length of the Milky Way Galaxy. Even traveling at the speed of light, it would take nearly a hundred thousand years! This is of course assuming that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, because of course nothing can exist that can't be proven scientifically with the information we presently have at hand. The world is still flat, just as scientists have always believed based on the unchanging information that has always existed. Aye...   And there are many sun-like stars that are millions of years older than Sol. Imagine where we will be in 10 million years, imagine us in 10 thousand. And would a civilization 10 million years more advanced than our own bother to try to communicate with us? Would we try to communicate with an anthill? Would the ants realise they were being contacted? Homo sapiens will be extinct in 10 million years. And...   Homo sapiens if they are extinct, will just have given way to a superior competitor... http://xrpg.rpcommunity.com/images/magneto.jpg

[HomesickAlien]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 11:11 PM)

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 08:48 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 08:47 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. It doesn't matter. For those who don't want to believe in anything supernatural, much less extraterrestrial, things like facts make no difference. They will find a way to explain things away that in their worldview cannot exist. Any information that would challenge this is discredited and invalid. No. There are just several explanations and theories, many which are more plausible. If you say so. In my experience, people who don't believe in anything supernatural will always find some alternative explanation to show how these things can't exist, even if the explanation is significantly more farfetched (and it often is) than the one they're trying to refute. If they're not man-made, which is the most logical conclusion, it's more likely they were made by extraterrestrials (as far-fetched as that is) than a supernatural force. How is a crop circle made supernaturally?

[JohnnyBlaze]

QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 27 2012, 12:27 PM)

QUOTE (t2s @ Aug 26 2012, 10:25 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. Links? It's on my Unsolved Mysteries DVD's about crop circles. The actual structure of the plant is changed and proven in the lab. Unsolved Mysteries? You mean the show with Robert Stack? One of the biggest mysteries in the universe and you're going to trust this trench coat-wearing geezer? http://epguides.com/UnsolvedMysteries/cast.jpg

[drbirdsong]

I don't know what everyone is so excited about. It's just God doodling in our crops.

 

 

 

 

(Shut your dirty mouth right now before you say it!)

[JohnnyBlaze]

QUOTE (substancewithoutstyle @ Aug 27 2012, 01:24 PM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 11:11 PM) QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 08:48 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 08:47 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. It doesn't matter. For those who don't want to believe in anything supernatural, much less extraterrestrial, things like facts make no difference. They will find a way to explain things away that in their worldview cannot exist. Any information that would challenge this is discredited and invalid. No. There are just several explanations and theories, many which are more plausible. If you say so. In my experience, people who don't believe in anything supernatural will always find some alternative explanation to show how these things can't exist, even if the explanation is significantly more farfetched (and it often is) than the one they're trying to refute. If they're not man-made, which is the most logical conclusion, it's more likely they were made by extraterrestrials (as far-fetched as that is) than a supernatural force. How is a crop circle made supernaturally?   By definition we can't explain it by the laws of nature because well, it's supernatural. If goobs or anyone of us could explain how something is done supernaturally and be able to PROVE it, then that person would be rich and be on every cheesedick talk show for the next few years.

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 09:23 PM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 09:11 PM) QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 08:48 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 08:47 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. It doesn't matter. For those who don't want to believe in anything supernatural, much less extraterrestrial, things like facts make no difference. They will find a way to explain things away that in their worldview cannot exist. Any information that would challenge this is discredited and invalid. No. There are just several explanations and theories, many which are more plausible. If you say so. In my experience, people who don't believe in anything supernatural will always find some alternative explanation to show how these things can't exist, even if the explanation is significantly more farfetched (and it often is) than the one they're trying to refute. What it comes down to is, simply put your trust in what the pros say (there your best bet, they've been studying these things all their lives).   Funny how often we will come up with are own supernatural theories instead of waiting for the facts. The skeptic side is the safe side; the sky isn't falling yet. Yes, but which pros? There are sets of pros that say completely different things.

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (JohnnyBlaze @ Aug 26 2012, 09:26 PM)

QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 27 2012, 12:27 PM) QUOTE (t2s @ Aug 26 2012, 10:25 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. Links? It's on my Unsolved Mysteries DVD's about crop circles. The actual structure of the plant is changed and proven in the lab. Unsolved Mysteries? You mean the show with Robert Stack? One of the biggest mysteries in the universe and you're going to trust this trench coat-wearing geezer? http://epguides.com/UnsolvedMysteries/cast.jpg   And of course that's the easiest way to refute anything, just call the people with more challenging theories that can't be proved scientifically (even if they can't be proved unscientifically either) a bunch of loons and you don't have to think about anything at all.

[Mr. Not]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 10:23 PM)

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 09:23 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 09:11 PM) QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 08:48 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 08:47 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. It doesn't matter. For those who don't want to believe in anything supernatural, much less extraterrestrial, things like facts make no difference. They will find a way to explain things away that in their worldview cannot exist. Any information that would challenge this is discredited and invalid. No. There are just several explanations and theories, many which are more plausible. If you say so. In my experience, people who don't believe in anything supernatural will always find some alternative explanation to show how these things can't exist, even if the explanation is significantly more farfetched (and it often is) than the one they're trying to refute. What it comes down to is, simply put your trust in what the pros say (there your best bet, they've been studying these things all their lives).   Funny how often we will come up with are own supernatural theories instead of waiting for the facts. The skeptic side is the safe side; the sky isn't falling yet. Yes, but which pros? There are sets of pros that say completely different things. Astronomers, Astrobiologists.

[JohnnyBlaze]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 27 2012, 02:27 PM)

QUOTE (JohnnyBlaze @ Aug 26 2012, 09:26 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 27 2012, 12:27 PM) QUOTE (t2s @ Aug 26 2012, 10:25 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. Links? It's on my Unsolved Mysteries DVD's about crop circles. The actual structure of the plant is changed and proven in the lab. Unsolved Mysteries? You mean the show with Robert Stack? One of the biggest mysteries in the universe and you're going to trust this trench coat-wearing geezer? http://epguides.com/UnsolvedMysteries/cast.jpg   And of course that's the easiest way to refute anything, just call the people with more challenging theories that can't be proved scientifically (even if they can't be proved unscientifically either) a bunch of loons and you don't have to think about anything at all. You're way too serious. It's a crop circle. I doubt anyone will change their mind no matter what evidence is shown or not shown.

[Mika]

QUOTE (JohnnyBlaze @ Aug 26 2012, 11:26 PM)

QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 27 2012, 12:27 PM) QUOTE (t2s @ Aug 26 2012, 10:25 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. Links? It's on my Unsolved Mysteries DVD's about crop circles. The actual structure of the plant is changed and proven in the lab. Unsolved Mysteries? You mean the show with Robert Stack? One of the biggest mysteries in the universe and you're going to trust this trench coat-wearing geezer? http://epguides.com/UnsolvedMysteries/cast.jpg   Unsolved Mysteries! Now there's a show I haven't seen in ages! I remember I used to watch it when I was home alone as a kid, and some of the episodes would aboslutely just freak me out!   And regardless of the alien/man-made crop circle speculation, they sure are works of art. I wonder how they get created? Surely, if they are man-made (and logically, they ought to be), there must be someone somewhere who has knowledge of their creation!

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 10:36 PM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 10:23 PM) QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 09:23 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 09:11 PM) QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Aug 26 2012, 08:48 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 26 2012, 08:47 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Aug 26 2012, 08:24 PM) For those of you that think it is college students with planks and boards how do you explain the plants being changed at a cellular level(as research has shown) in many of the famous crop circles? Planks and boards can't do that. It doesn't matter. For those who don't want to believe in anything supernatural, much less extraterrestrial, things like facts make no difference. They will find a way to explain things away that in their worldview cannot exist. Any information that would challenge this is discredited and invalid. No. There are just several explanations and theories, many which are more plausible. If you say so. In my experience, people who don't believe in anything supernatural will always find some alternative explanation to show how these things can't exist, even if the explanation is significantly more farfetched (and it often is) than the one they're trying to refute. What it comes down to is, simply put your trust in what the pros say (there your best bet, they've been studying these things all their lives).   Funny how often we will come up with are own supernatural theories instead of waiting for the facts. The skeptic side is the safe side; the sky isn't falling yet. Yes, but which pros? There are sets of pros that say completely different things. Astronomers, Astrobiologists. Trust in who you want to. Scientists know a lot about what is currently known and accepted in science, but science changes as new information becomes known. It makes it hard to trust in science when it is limited by currently available data, which is only a tiny portion of all data. And then if you add in a prejudice to discount anything that can't be currently scientifically proven with currently known methodology, you automatically discount a whole host of possibilities.   Remember, learned scientists used to believe that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth and that bleeding people was a great method of healing. Who's to say that what we currently believe isn't equally as misinformed.