ucsteve667 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (Presto-a RUSH fan! @ Jan 19 2012, 06:47 PM) QUOTE (Apollo @ Jan 19 2012, 06:21 PM)QUOTE (eshine @ Jan 13 2012, 12:27 AM) because we all know people of faith gently and quietly go about their business without ever throwing it in the face of non-believers. A lot of people of faith do just that. This is an interesting thread that I just discovered, and I would like to ask everyone who is telling the complaining Christians here to suck it up or deal with Neil's opinions how they would feel if Neil started writing songs that were pro-organized religion like people said Live started doing. You would probably be just as annoyed as the Christians are now. The most disappointing thing about this controversy to me is that Rush always used to symbolize universal peace or envisioning a future where everyone could respect each other and get along, like the beautiful final part of Hemispheres says. I have always found Rush's music to be positive and thought-provoking but that no longer seems to be the case. With S&A and apparently Clockwork Angels he has turned very negative and is obviously provoking Christians with juvenile cracks like "sky god" in his blog. He is now as obnoxiously strident in his crusade against religion as he accuses religious zealots of being. He has become a zealot himself and it is hard to believe he ever wrote beautiful words about balance. While I can't disagree with a lot of what you said. I say this. I am a Christian (again, a terrible one) and I LOVE RUSH. My answer to Christians who are complaining about the lyrics is, DO NOT BUY IT, DO NOT SUPPORT RUSH AND MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE. As a "Christian" I would be annoyed if Neil started writing all Christian lyrics. BUT, I would still probably like the music and still probably find some of the lyrics amazing, as most of the time, even a song that goes against my "beliefs" like Faithless, I find thought provoking and poetic and I love it. As a Christian, again, apparently not a good one, I just wish people would stop and move on. Neil writes what is in his heart and mind and if you don't like it, DON'T LISTEN OR SUPPORT THEM! Why is it ok for "Christians" to trumpet their beliefs on the mountaintop but anyone with a differing view should just keep it to themselves? I think Neil's hatred of religion is that it divides people. Even Christians can't agree on what the Bible says. Catholics don't believe in a rapture. Born again Christians do. So I think in Neil's mind, IMO, he thinks that religion is a major stumbling block to a world of "universal peace or envisioning a future where everyone could respect each other and get along" quoted from your post. I don't happen to agree with Neil on that. I think that the Christian faith, when applied correctly, can be an agent to bring universal peace. But the problem, and you can see it by turning on the news every night, is that people use it to judge and divide. Two things they should not do as Christians. That is God's job. I have been a republican since I was 20 years old. I would now say I am an Independent because I can't stand the hypocrisy of the republican party. Almost every candidate for the rep nomination says God told them to run for president and that they would win. Well, either God was just messing with them or they are full of shyt. I choose the latter. Anyway, I applaud Neil for sharing his beliefs and am blown away by the sheer brilliance and the poetic story telling nature of them. I just can't grasp the hypocrisy of people saying Neil is trumpeting his beliefs on us, why can't he just stop and write something that doesn't go against my belief structure....but they are still my favorite band and I love the way Neil wrote lyrics like Hemispheres and 2112. Last time I checked you don't have to buy, listen or contribute in anyway to RUSH. I mean, it's a forum. Feel free to share your feelings on how you don't like the direction of Neil's lyrics or his religion bashing. But at the same time, he is writing what he wants, which is his "GOD GIVEN RIGHT" at least in the United States (well for the time being anyway) and if you don't like it, don't buy the album, don't listen to it, don't go to the concerts and don't support RUSH. Or just continue and saying that it's ok for people to have freedom to believe what they want and write about what they want, then on the other hand criticize and malign him for doing just that. I don't know. I just don't get it. But then again, no one ever said I was very smart. Edited to say that I am done posting to this thread. I am tired of myself. you seem highly articulate and intelligent to me. Although I do think you beat yourself up a lil...but I was the same way a long time ago. It took a while but I got past it. You may too, or you'll learn to deal I figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lerxt1990 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It is Neils right to bore us on the subject of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Rebel Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (lerxt1990 @ Jan 19 2012, 10:38 PM) It is Neils right to bore us on the subject of religion. You just need to let it capture your thoughts and carry them away. If you think about it, nature seems to spin in supernatural ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lerxt1990 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Running Rebel @ Jan 19 2012, 11:12 PM) QUOTE (lerxt1990 @ Jan 19 2012, 10:38 PM) It is Neils and Running Reb's right to bore us on the subject of religion. You just need to let it capture your thoughts and carry them away. If you think about it, nature seems to spin in supernatural ways. Fixed. Edited January 20, 2012 by lerxt1990 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lerxt1990 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (Running Rebel @ Jan 19 2012, 11:12 PM) You just need to let it capture your thoughts and carry them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucsteve667 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyBlaze Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You guys are STILL carrying on with this thread?!!! Any more of this and it'll reach the length of that My Little Pony thread in RS...and that's just plain madness!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (JohnnyBlaze @ Jan 19 2012, 10:12 PM) You guys are STILL carrying on with this thread?!!! Any more of this and it'll reach the length of that My Little Pony thread in RS...and that's just plain madness!!! We may approach the length of that thread, but I don't think anyone would ever claim that we could come anywhere close to approaching the sheer importance of the My Little Pony thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lerxt1990 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 20 2012, 12:20 AM) QUOTE (JohnnyBlaze @ Jan 19 2012, 10:12 PM) You guys are STILL carrying on with this thread?!!! Any more of this and it'll reach the length of that My Little Pony thread in RS...and that's just plain madness!!! We may approach the length of that thread, but I don't think anyone would ever claim that we could come anywhere close to approaching the sheer importance of the My Little Pony thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyBlaze Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jan 20 2012, 02:20 PM) QUOTE (JohnnyBlaze @ Jan 19 2012, 10:12 PM) You guys are STILL carrying on with this thread?!!! Any more of this and it'll reach the length of that My Little Pony thread in RS...and that's just plain madness!!! We may approach the length of that thread, but I don't think anyone would ever claim that we could come anywhere close to approaching the sheer importance of the My Little Pony thread. Too true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lerxt1990 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyBlaze Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbirdsong Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Best. Thread. Ever. Thanks everyone for thinking so hard and being so measured in your responses. Thanks to Tony R for starting the whole thing. Thanks to Rush and especially Neil Peart for getting the intellectual ball rolling. Let's make it last for many more pages please because I am loving it. I don't know if Neil meant for the fans to engage in such a discourse, but I do think that he wouldn't mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowItIs Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (Apollo @ Jan 19 2012, 03:21 PM) This is an interesting thread that I just discovered, and I would like to ask everyone who is telling the complaining Christians here to suck it up or deal with Neil's opinions how they would feel if Neil started writing songs that were pro-organized religion like people said Live started doing. You would probably be just as annoyed as the Christians are now. The most disappointing thing about this controversy to me is that Rush always used to symbolize universal peace or envisioning a future where everyone could respect each other and get along, like the beautiful final part of Hemispheres says. I have always found Rush's music to be positive and thought-provoking but that no longer seems to be the case. With S&A and apparently Clockwork Angels he has turned very negative and is obviously provoking Christians with juvenile cracks like "sky god" in his blog. He is now as obnoxiously strident in his crusade against religion as he accuses religious zealots of being. He has become a zealot himself and it is hard to believe he ever wrote beautiful words about balance. Actually, your question has been answered a few times further back in the thread. As the only Pagan (that I know of) participating here, let me say that it would be off-putting, but unless Neil were calling for a new Inquisition, it wouldn't bother me. As I said before, I'm secure enough in my beliefs that I don't need validation from a songwriter. What annoys me, now and anytime, is the sanctimoniousness I see from a certain type of "Christian." The ones who screech about the Taliban but would love to turn America into a Christian version of the same. The ones who spend their time and energy trying to coerce, badger and force others to believe the same thing as them. In my experience, they do this because they are not secure in their beliefs; they think that the more people they can get to agree with them, the more "right" they are. It's childish. If Rush has always symbolized world peace to you, I'd suggest you re-examine that with an objective mind. Neil's lyrics have always called into question fanaticism, blind allegiance and hypocrisy. He continued to do so on S&A. He questioned, he didn't condemn. There is not a single song on that album that translates to "Christians are wrong - period." Not in any objective measure. And, no Neil is not a "zealot." Not even close. He writes thoughts that trouble you, that causes your defense mechanisms to engage. Perhaps you should fight that ingrained response and be more thoughtful in your approach. Nor is he "obnoxiously strident" in tone. If that were the case, he could do much more than an occasional "sky-god" reference. Just as a comparison, why don't you have a look at someone who really IS a zealot and is obnoxiously strident in his crusade against anyone who doesn't fit his narrow and ugly view of the world: http://www.nndb.com/people/908/000025833/ THAT is not what Neil Peart is. You really want everyone to get along? The first thing to do is to stop judging people. Stop expecting the world to fit into your viewpoint and start actually listening to others as they explain how they manage to get through this thing we call life. It might not be the same way you do it, but it is just as valid. In the words of Philo: Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Enemy Without Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (HowItIs @ Jan 20 2012, 04:36 AM) What annoys me, now and anytime, is the sanctimoniousness I see from a certain type of "Christian." The ones who screech about the Taliban but would love to turn America into a Christian version of the same. The ones who spend their time and energy trying to coerce, badger and force others to believe the same thing as them. In my experience, they do this because they are not secure in their beliefs; they think that the more people they can get to agree with them, the more "right" they are. It's childish. I totally agree with this. QUOTE (HowItIs @ Jan 20 2012, 04:36 AM)If Rush has always symbolized world peace to you, I'd suggest you re-examine that with an objective mind. Neil's lyrics have always called into question fanaticism, blind allegiance and hypocrisy. While songs like Witch Hunt criticized the obnoxious religious elements like who you define above, I think the problem is Neil is now painting all Christians with the same brush. I may have to go back and listen to S&A although in my previous post I was commenting more on his blog entries and more recent songs like BU2B. I didn't like S&A mostly because I thought the music was poor. QUOTE (HowItIs @ Jan 20 2012, 04:36 AM)And, no Neil is not a "zealot." Not even close. He writes thoughts that trouble you, that causes your defense mechanisms to engage. Perhaps you should fight that ingrained response and be more thoughtful in your approach. Nor is he "obnoxiously strident" in tone. If that were the case, he could do much more than an occasional "sky-god" reference. I may have jumped the gun with this one a little bit but I think he is headed in that direction and it sounds like Clockwork Angels will be more of the same. QUOTE (HowItIs @ Jan 20 2012, 04:36 AM)You really want everyone to get along? The first thing to do is to stop judging people. Stop expecting the world to fit into your viewpoint and start actually listening to others as they explain how they manage to get through this thing we call life. It might not be the same way you do it, but it is just as valid. In the words of Philo: Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. I am not judging anyone's belief system and would not do that. I could easily be wrong and have no problem admitting that and have friends of many belief systems. The problem I have with Neil here is that he is criticizing and judging others. If he wants to write about his own belief system, I think that's great but I think lately he is crossing the line from justified criticism into religion-bashing. Whether Neil wants to sing about Gaia in Totem or all the different references in Counterparts is fine with me, write about how great paganism is but don't just try to put other systems down. Edited January 20, 2012 by Apollo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gompers Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Seems to be getting close to SOCN type posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Principled Man Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (Running Rebel @ Jan 19 2012, 03:24 PM)You can learn alot about it by watching this video series. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo I just watched the entire video. Lawrence Krauss is da MAN.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lerxt1990 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (Gompers @ Jan 20 2012, 12:42 PM) Seems to be getting close to SOCN type posts. shhhhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sawyer Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (Gompers @ Jan 20 2012, 10:42 AM) Seems to be getting close to SOCN type posts. Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Enemy Without Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (Gompers @ Jan 20 2012, 11:42 AM) Seems to be getting close to SOCN type posts. Just now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presto-a RUSH fan! Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 QUOTE (HowItIs @ Jan 20 2012, 05:36 AM)QUOTE (Apollo @ Jan 19 2012, 03:21 PM) This is an interesting thread that I just discovered, and I would like to ask everyone who is telling the complaining Christians here to suck it up or deal with Neil's opinions how they would feel if Neil started writing songs that were pro-organized religion like people said Live started doing. You would probably be just as annoyed as the Christians are now. The most disappointing thing about this controversy to me is that Rush always used to symbolize universal peace or envisioning a future where everyone could respect each other and get along, like the beautiful final part of Hemispheres says. I have always found Rush's music to be positive and thought-provoking but that no longer seems to be the case. With S&A and apparently Clockwork Angels he has turned very negative and is obviously provoking Christians with juvenile cracks like "sky god" in his blog. He is now as obnoxiously strident in his crusade against religion as he accuses religious zealots of being. He has become a zealot himself and it is hard to believe he ever wrote beautiful words about balance. Actually, your question has been answered a few times further back in the thread. As the only Pagan (that I know of) participating here, let me say that it would be off-putting, but unless Neil were calling for a new Inquisition, it wouldn't bother me. As I said before, I'm secure enough in my beliefs that I don't need validation from a songwriter. What annoys me, now and anytime, is the sanctimoniousness I see from a certain type of "Christian." The ones who screech about the Taliban but would love to turn America into a Christian version of the same. The ones who spend their time and energy trying to coerce, badger and force others to believe the same thing as them. In my experience, they do this because they are not secure in their beliefs; they think that the more people they can get to agree with them, the more "right" they are. It's childish. If Rush has always symbolized world peace to you, I'd suggest you re-examine that with an objective mind. Neil's lyrics have always called into question fanaticism, blind allegiance and hypocrisy. He continued to do so on S&A. He questioned, he didn't condemn. There is not a single song on that album that translates to "Christians are wrong - period." Not in any objective measure. And, no Neil is not a "zealot." Not even close. He writes thoughts that trouble you, that causes your defense mechanisms to engage. Perhaps you should fight that ingrained response and be more thoughtful in your approach. Nor is he "obnoxiously strident" in tone. If that were the case, he could do much more than an occasional "sky-god" reference. Just as a comparison, why don't you have a look at someone who really IS a zealot and is obnoxiously strident in his crusade against anyone who doesn't fit his narrow and ugly view of the world: http://www.nndb.com/people/908/000025833/ THAT is not what Neil Peart is. You really want everyone to get along? The first thing to do is to stop judging people. Stop expecting the world to fit into your viewpoint and start actually listening to others as they explain how they manage to get through this thing we call life. It might not be the same way you do it, but it is just as valid. In the words of Philo: Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. So we now have a Pagan, some Christians and some Atheists who all get "How It Is". (pun intended) If now just all the other so called Christians or people of faith would just realize how they are their own worst enemy and in turn can be often seen as hypocrites, maybe we might get somewhere. (although watching the debates...I don't think our leaders are getting it) I know this one is close to SOCN but I include myself in the hypocrite category, does that help? I know this forum spans more than just the USA, and I often times forget that. But it seems alot of the Christians who complain are from the US. Why not just remember why this country was founded? For freedom of religion and freedom from oppression. It seems that in the US we have forgotten those things and seem to want to go back to the archaic way of thinking that got us here in the first place. HowItIs hit it square on the head. Feel secure enough in your own beliefs that you don't need everyone else to believe the same thing. And I am a hypocrite because I don't even have as much faith as I should in my beliefs. The difference is I TRY not to judge others who disagree with my faith, however feeble it may be. Oh and just for good measure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeminiRising79 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) You'll never hear Neil discuss his philosophy on religion in a live interview. He's too spineless and hypocritical. Edited January 21, 2012 by GeminiRising79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowItIs Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (GeminiRising79 @ Jan 20 2012, 06:17 PM) You'll never hear Neil discuss his philosophy on religion in a live interview. He's too spineless and hypocritical. Or maybe it's just not that important to him. I mean, really -- if he were actually so down on Christians why wouldn't he take every opportunity to say so? You know ... like you take every opportunity to accuse him of being such a horrible person. That log in your eye... better see to it. Edited January 21, 2012 by HowItIs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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