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Leaving BU2B off of CA?

rushgoober

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circumstantial tree

circumstantial tree

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QUOTE (Duck @ Oct 15 2010, 11:24 AM)
I'm in partial agreement with the OP.

I think BU2B really belongs on S&A due to the theme of it.

I enjoyed S&A more than any recent Rush album. Also, as a humble agnostic, Neil devoting almost an entire record on his anti-religious introspection only bothered me a little bit, and this is why:

I realize that many other people take a lot of comfort in their beliefs. This includes much of my immediate family members and friends. It is simply not polite to argue with people over such metaphysical/religious beliefs.

I'm willing to give Neil a pass on that because as an artist, he should push boundaries, which he did. But he did this in a big way in not just a song or two, but based an entire Rush album on exploring that theme. I can enjoy the album and let that slide...but...

Now if Clockwork Angels is just S&A part deux then I am going to be really disappointed. And having BU2B on there (which is musically good, but lyrically much the same as Faithless) does have me worried that Neil is spending a little too much time in his own head thinking about his loss of belief.

Even the title 'Clockwork Angels' hints at a continuation of S&A in some form.

I'm hoping for a fresh album with a lot of new lyrical concepts. The inclusion of BU2B also has me worried.

Well put!

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tjtull

tjtull

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Personally, I didn't think S&A went far enough on many of the themes it explored. I would have like to see it go further, like BU2B does. It put the bait out there but never reeled it in. BU2B reels the idea in.

 

To me, S&A put down the groundwork for deeper things to come. Not only exploring religion but the overall human condition. Lyrics to ponder on where we're headed as a species (like Far Cry) and civilizations (Caravan). I very much like this lyrical direction. But I've always loved dark and ponderous lyrics...so don't mind me wink.gif

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circumstantial tree

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If it turns out that the new album explores yet again the same old issues, I seriously will save my money and buy something more worthwhile.
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danielmclark

danielmclark

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You people - some of you at least - are hopeless. Saying that Neil is rehashing old ideas, can't come up with anything new, blah, blah, blah is like saying that Stephen King hasn't written anything new in 40 years just because he still writes horror fiction. Anne Rice hasn't written anything new because she's still doing supernatural fiction. It's ridiculous. Neil has a style of writing and a general theme that he sticks to. He's been doing it for nearly 40 years. But now you're all pissed off because his lyrics are a little more obvious than they used to be? Go look at the back catalog - BU2B, thematically, has been there in some form or another nearly since the beginning. What would be a major departure for him is if he did a song all about loving god and following jesus - like every third country music tune does.

 

Also, you guys are blowing this Dawkins thing WAY out of proportion.

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snowdog2112

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QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 15 2010, 09:45 AM)
If it turns out that the new album explores yet again the same old issues, I seriously will save my money and buy something more worthwhile.

That's perfectly within your right and you're under no obligation as a fan to support what you don't want. I just don't understand why people are just now getting some of this though. Have you guys never noticed any of this before?

 

ct, did you save your money on Freewill, too?

 

How about Tom Sawyer?

 

Though his mind is not for rent

Don't put him down as arrogant

His reserve, a quiet defence

 

No, his mind is not for rent

To any god or government

Always hopeful, yet discontent

 

That says it all about what we've been talking about and describes Neil perfectly. And he talked about all of this same stuff even before his family tragedies. It's who he is and has always been.

 

If you still can enjoy just the music in those two songs can't you enjoy it now too (if the music itself still appeals to you, I mean. And if it doesn't then who cares about the lyrics anyway)?

 

 

 

 

 

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danielmclark

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QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 15 2010, 09:45 AM)
If it turns out that the new album explores yet again the same old issues, I seriously will save my money and buy something more worthwhile.

You probably should have stopped buying their albums after Moving Pictures then, because his philosophy has been all over his lyrics since the 70's.

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snowdog2112

snowdog2112

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QUOTE (danielmclark @ Oct 15 2010, 10:14 AM)
QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 15 2010, 09:45 AM)
If it turns out that the new album explores yet again the same old issues, I seriously will save my money and buy something more worthwhile.

You probably should have stopped buying their albums after Moving Pictures then, because his philosophy has been all over his lyrics since the 70's.

I can just imagine some poor young dedicated Communist in the 70s who happened to love Rush's music (probably not too many of those laugh.gif ).

 

"Damn it! Again Neil, with all this individualism crap?!? Song after song and album after album! Why can't you just get off it already?"

 

It only seems repetitive if you don't agree with it.

 

Neil is consistent. Individualism vs. groupthink/the mob mentality is at the core of it. Some of you think that's great when it's aimed at political or cultural uniformity but somehow individualism should always be submissive when it comes to religion. No, his mind is not for rent To any god or government.

 

 

Maybe we should just talk about chord structures for a while. laugh.gif

 

smile.gif

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Duck

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QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Oct 15 2010, 11:13 AM)
That's perfectly within your right and you're under no obligation as a fan to support what you don't want. I just don't understand why people are just now getting some of this though. Have you guys never noticed any of this before?

Yeah, but you have to admit, these themes are a bit less subtle in S&A and BU2B. Well, actually, there was nothing subtle about it. smile.gif

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-D-RocK-

-D-RocK-

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QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 15 2010, 09:45 AM)
If it turns out that the new album explores yet again the same old issues, I seriously will save my money and buy something more worthwhile.

Help us understand why song lyrics bother you so much Kelly.......?

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SlyJeff

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QUOTE (Duck @ Oct 15 2010, 11:40 AM)
QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Oct 15 2010, 11:13 AM)
That's perfectly within your right and you're under no obligation as a fan to support what you don't want. I just don't understand why people are just now getting some of this though. Have you guys never noticed any of this before?

Yeah, but you have to admit, these themes are a bit less subtle in S&A and BU2B. Well, actually, there was nothing subtle about it. smile.gif

Freewill wasn't subtle, and RTB was as laden with these themes as S&A is.

 

Personally, I'd prefer he write on different topics, but I'd rather him write on these topics than something he is trying to force. It's where he is, so it's what he writes.

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Duck

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Neil also wrote Natural Science and Mystic Rhythms -- outstanding musically and lyrically profound and thought provoking. Plus a slew of other things on those albums that did not equate to the BU2B/Faithless theme we are discussing.

 

Yeah it is a recurrent theme but I think he will step into the realm of "overkill" if he keeps it going in any multi-track sense on the new album material going forward.

 

I'm just thinking Neil might turn his talents to some different lines of thought -- especially since we just had almost a full album of "BU2B/Faithless" exploration.

 

S&A Part Deux -- c'mon, Neil can do a lot better than that. S&A is a good album, but this is one fan hoping for something new. And leave BU2B off it smile.gif

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circumstantial tree

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QUOTE (-D-RocK- @ Oct 15 2010, 01:11 PM)
QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 15 2010, 09:45 AM)
If it turns out that the new album explores yet again the same old issues, I seriously will save my money and buy something more worthwhile.

Help us understand why song lyrics bother you so much Kelly.......?

Why does it bother you if I choose to not buy a Rush album?

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tjtull

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QUOTE (Duck @ Oct 15 2010, 12:44 PM)
And leave BU2B off it smile.gif

Sorry but BU2B is going to be on the new album. No point in wishing it wasn't.

 

I love both of the new songs, especially BU2B. I think they are harbingers of a great new album to come. One that, I hope, is even better than S&A.

 

If people are tired of the subject matter or get their feelings tread on...they are free to not purchase it.

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GeddysMullet

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QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 15 2010, 11:45 AM)
If it turns out that the new album explores yet again the same old issues, I seriously will save my money and buy something more worthwhile.

That will be such a tremendous relief for all concerned! wink.gif laugh.gif

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circumstantial tree

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QUOTE (tjtull @ Oct 15 2010, 02:16 PM)
If people are tired of the subject matter or get their feelings tread on...they are free to not purchase it.

Totally agree. Rush has not cornered the market on good music.

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snowdog2112

snowdog2112

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QUOTE (SlyJeff @ Oct 15 2010, 11:13 AM)
QUOTE (Duck @ Oct 15 2010, 11:40 AM)
QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Oct 15 2010, 11:13 AM)
That's perfectly within your right and you're under no obligation as a fan to support what you don't want. I just don't understand why people are just now getting some of this though. Have you guys never noticed any of this before?

Yeah, but you have to admit, these themes are a bit less subtle in S&A and BU2B. Well, actually, there was nothing subtle about it. smile.gif

Freewill wasn't subtle, and RTB was as laden with these themes as S&A is.

 

Personally, I'd prefer he write on different topics, but I'd rather him write on these topics than something he is trying to force. It's where he is, so it's what he writes.

These lyrics are subtle?!?

 

A planet of playthings

We dance on the strings

Of powers we cannot perceive

"The stars aren't aligned -

Or the gods are malign"

Blame is better to give than receive.

 

You can choose a ready guide

In some celestial voice.

If you choose not to decide

You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears

And kindness that can kill;

I will choose a path that's clear-

I will choose free will

 

 

No, his mind is not for rent

To any god or government

 

 

Faith is cold as ice -

Why are little ones born only to suffer

For the want of immunity

Or a bowl of rice?

Well, who would hold a price

On the heads of the innocent children

If there's some immortal power

To control the dice?

 

 

I placed no trust in a faith that was ready-made

Take no chances on paradise delayed

 

 

I DON'T BELIEVE IN DESTINY

OR THE GUIDING HAND OF FATE

I DON'T BELIEVE IN FOREVER

OR LOVE AS A MYSTICAL STATE

I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE STARS OR THE PLANETS

OR ANGELS WATCHING FROM ABOVE

 

 

Those lyrics are as blunt as can be. There are other more subtle songs that are related as well though like High Water which is about evolution.

 

 

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ReflectedLight

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QUOTE (danielmclark @ Oct 15 2010, 11:13 AM)
You people - some of you at least - are hopeless. Saying that Neil is rehashing old ideas, can't come up with anything new, blah, blah, blah is like saying that Stephen King hasn't written anything new in 40 years just because he still writes horror fiction. Anne Rice hasn't written anything new because she's still doing supernatural fiction. It's ridiculous. Neil has a style of writing and a general theme that he sticks to. He's been doing it for nearly 40 years. But now you're all pissed off because his lyrics are a little more obvious than they used to be? Go look at the back catalog - BU2B, thematically, has been there in some form or another nearly since the beginning. What would be a major departure for him is if he did a song all about loving god and following jesus - like every third country music tune does.

Also, you guys are blowing this Dawkins thing WAY out of proportion.

you mean neil didn't get any inspiration from dawkins? the guy wrote a book with the title "the blind watchmaker". laugh.gif

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snowdog2112

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QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Oct 15 2010, 01:00 PM)
QUOTE (danielmclark @ Oct 15 2010, 11:13 AM)
You people - some of you at least - are hopeless. Saying that Neil is rehashing old ideas, can't come up with anything new, blah, blah, blah is like saying that Stephen King hasn't written anything new in 40 years just because he still writes horror fiction. Anne Rice hasn't written anything new because she's still doing supernatural fiction. It's ridiculous. Neil has a style of writing and a general theme that he sticks to. He's been doing it for nearly 40 years. But now you're all pissed off because his lyrics are a little more obvious than they used to be? Go look at the back catalog - BU2B, thematically, has been there in some form or another nearly since the beginning. What would be a major departure for him is if he did a song all about loving god and following jesus - like every third country music tune does.

Also, you guys are blowing this Dawkins thing WAY out of proportion.

you mean neil didn't get any inspiration from dawkins? the guy wrote a book with the title "the blind watchmaker". laugh.gif

The fact that he sees eye-to-eye with Dawkins doesn't mean that Dawkins caused him to think that way all of a sudden. Someone a couple pages back said that this is Neil's "new philosophy" because he read Dawkins and it's not. He has always had the same views (at least since he's been a writer) that he has now. Why is that so hard?

 

The Watchmaker idea dates back to the early 1800s which is a little before Dawkins.

 

 

If there's any doubt all you have to do is read the semi-infamous letter he wrote to the Daily Texan in 1981:

 

 

I'm not laughing anymore, either. I've started to receive too many questions and letters from confused and impressionable young people wanting to know if it's true that we worship the devil. Who is it that is corrupting the minds of young Americans?

 

Let us not for one minute forget that this is the same self-righteous mentality that has put itself to work persecuting witches, Christians, Jews, Quakers, Indians, Catholics, Negroes, Communists, hippies and capitalists down through the ages. There's always somebody to kick you when you're down. It seems like every group has taken its turn at one end of the stick or the other. From the bitter oppressed to the righteous oppressor is a very short step.

 

Speaking for myself, as lyricist and drummer for "Rush", and one of those accused of this heinous crime, I must object, Your Honors. Far from being a closet Satanist, I confess crudely, I don't even believe in the old bastard! I wonder if that's better or worse in your eyes, Grand Inquisitor?

 

 

http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/transcrip...artsatanism.htm

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