Vapor Trails vs. S&A

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (trenken @ Nov 30 2011, 12:44 PM)

I thought it was a good decision. Im not into guitar solos anymore, they make a band sound dated to me.

Really?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

REALLY?

 

[malnar]

I also don't think any of the songs get hurt by lack of a traditional guitar solo on VT. The album's not even entirely devoid of guitar solos-Earthshine, Vapor Trail, Ghost Rider, and One Little Victory all have some 'soloing' on them-like others have said, Lifeson wanted to focus on a more ensemble approach for the musical breaks and not rely on the cliched obligatory rock guitar solo... not that I mind those in the right context.

 

I do think some of the layering on VT especially with the vocals can be overwhelming with the horrible mastering job. I've been listening to a homegrown remaster of the album that some of the guys over at the Counterparts message board made. Its made the album a lot easier to listen to, and repeated listens continue to reveal more and more interesting bits amidst all the layers.

Edited November 30, 2011 by malnar

[EmotionDetector]

QUOTE (malnar @ Nov 30 2011, 04:15 PM)

I do think some of the layering on VT especially with the vocals can be overwhelming with the horrible mastering job.

 

That is a great point. In fact, I think that is the biggest issue I have with the bad production. The heavy use of layers mixed with the already LOUD sound is too overwhelming for the ears.

 

That's why I think I'm not a fan of the layers on VT...it's just too much.

[metaldad]

QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Nov 30 2011, 03:34 PM)

That's why I think I'm not a fan of the layers on VT...it's just too much.

Like how i feel with Bad songs on S&A, too many

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Nov 30 2011, 01:14 PM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Nov 30 2011, 12:44 PM) I thought it was a good decision. Im not into guitar solos anymore, they make a band sound dated to me. Really?                           REALLY?   ludicrous.

[USB Connector]

If it weren't for the mastering it probably would have been VT.

[EmotionDetector]

QUOTE (metaldad @ Nov 30 2011, 04:39 PM)

QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Nov 30 2011, 03:34 PM) That's why I think I'm not a fan of the layers on VT...it's just too much. Like how i feel with Bad songs on S&A, too many

[ucsteve667]

QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Nov 30 2011, 02:06 PM)

QUOTE (ucsteve667 @ Nov 30 2011, 02:53 PM) heh...ED prove my point much, 3 posts later? ha No...I don't think so.   Trust me, I don't get "pissed off" by what Rush has done. Not at all.   In fact, I'm alot more 'Fanboi' then you think. If you read the majority of my posts, you'll notice that I like everything they've done in some capacity or another. I honestly consider myself a fan of all their work...every song. Honest.   As mentioned before, I still like VT alot. The album is great...but that doesn't mean that it still can't be better.   1) The production sucks and hurt the album IMO. 2) VT lacks guitar solos...that's obvious.   Like I said before, these guys are three of the greatest musicians ever. Why wouldn't I want to see each of them be "selfish" on their records? My theory is, if you have the talent, why not use it!? still makin my point... just accept there is one record with no solos

[EmotionDetector]

QUOTE (ucsteve667 @ Nov 30 2011, 05:23 PM)

QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Nov 30 2011, 02:06 PM) QUOTE (ucsteve667 @ Nov 30 2011, 02:53 PM) heh...ED prove my point much, 3 posts later? ha No...I don't think so.   Trust me, I don't get "pissed off" by what Rush has done. Not at all.   In fact, I'm alot more 'Fanboi' then you think. If you read the majority of my posts, you'll notice that I like everything they've done in some capacity or another. I honestly consider myself a fan of all their work...every song. Honest.   As mentioned before, I still like VT alot. The album is great...but that doesn't mean that it still can't be better.   1) The production sucks and hurt the album IMO. 2) VT lacks guitar solos...that's obvious.   Like I said before, these guys are three of the greatest musicians ever. Why wouldn't I want to see each of them be "selfish" on their records? My theory is, if you have the talent, why not use it!? still makin my point... just accept there is one record with no solos   Really? What point exactly.   I have 'accepted' it. Like I said, I like VT. It's good.   The whole point of this thread is a comparison of VT to S&A.   VT is good. S&A is better. Missing guitar solos = Bummer   I accept this.

[malnar]

A song that might could use a proper 'rawk' guitar solo-Far Cry!

[EmotionDetector]

QUOTE (malnar @ Nov 30 2011, 06:03 PM)

A song that might could use a proper 'rawk' guitar solo-Far Cry!

Absolutely.

 

I remember the first time I heard the song on Rush.com, and after that second verse...it sounded like it was building to one...but it never came!

 

Still an AWESOME tune! But yeah...I would've loved an explosive solo in there!

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Nov 30 2011, 03:07 PM)

QUOTE (malnar @ Nov 30 2011, 06:03 PM) A song that might could use a proper 'rawk' guitar solo-Far Cry! Absolutely.   I remember the first time I heard the song on Rush.com, and after that second verse...it sounded like it was building to one...but it never came!   Still an AWESOME tune! But yeah...I would've loved an explosive solo in there! It would have propelled the song into stratosphere, no doubt about it, but somehow it's still an amazing song regardless. At least there are solos on S&A in general.

[Presto-a RUSH fan!]

[trenken]

QUOTE (Gompers @ Nov 30 2011, 03:00 PM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Nov 30 2011, 03:44 PM) QUOTE (Gompers @ Nov 30 2011, 09:39 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Nov 30 2011, 10:22 AM) Plus another major complain I have with VT is because they didnt want to do any guitar solos or synths, since they really are not in style anymore, Geddy felt this weird need to layer his vocals a lot to fill out the sound, which was a really poor decision. That really was a bad choice. No leads? WTF Alex? Rush has ALWAYS been a band who reflects what's going on around them in popular rock music. Well guitar solos were viewed at as being really corny in the 2000s, so noone was really doing them, therefore Rush didnt.   Little hard to argue with them about it, they were following a formula they've used since they started, never do anything that's too far away from what's going on around them.   When prog was big before Rush came around, Rush did prog. When new wave came into style, Rush started doing that. When Nirvana and Pearl Jam got heavier, Rush came out with Counterparts, and in the 2000s when everyone ditched guitar solos, so did Rush. Not too hard to understand why they stopped doing them.   I thought it was a good decision. Im not into guitar solos anymore, they make a band sound dated to me. I just didnt like that they felt some need to fill in the sound with 50 layers of vocals. I certainly understand them trying to mimic the current sound but I still struggle with the lack of leads. It could have meant for a much better release, in which case, some fans would be in a perpetual orgasm. Well you're getting into something that I think is a conflict between Rush's aging fans, and what they've always done.   Even at their advanced age now, old men, when you listen to the 2 new songs, they have a heavy edge to them, which is taken from what's going on around them.   Yeah sure Rush fans would love for them to do things they personally love, but that's not what Rush does. They always seem to look at what's happening around them, take that and try to make it their own.   They are never going back to synths until they come back in style. They wont do guitar solos if noone else is doing them. There's a pattern you can see with them over the decades. I never had a problem with it, but they have made some bad decisions, like thinking they needed to use layered vocal tracks to fill in a sound.

[WCFIELDS]

I bet if we did this poll from scratch again now that SnA has been out for years , you'd see VT in front.

[EmotionDetector]

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Nov 30 2011, 10:55 PM)

I bet if we did this poll from scratch again now that SnA has been out for years , you'd see VT in front.

Hmm...not sure about that.

 

But it would be interesting to make one and see...

[ucsteve667]

QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Nov 30 2011, 05:02 PM)

QUOTE (ucsteve667 @ Nov 30 2011, 05:23 PM) QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Nov 30 2011, 02:06 PM) QUOTE (ucsteve667 @ Nov 30 2011, 02:53 PM) heh...ED prove my point much, 3 posts later? ha No...I don't think so.   Trust me, I don't get "pissed off" by what Rush has done. Not at all.   In fact, I'm alot more 'Fanboi' then you think. If you read the majority of my posts, you'll notice that I like everything they've done in some capacity or another. I honestly consider myself a fan of all their work...every song. Honest.   As mentioned before, I still like VT alot. The album is great...but that doesn't mean that it still can't be better.   1) The production sucks and hurt the album IMO. 2) VT lacks guitar solos...that's obvious.   Like I said before, these guys are three of the greatest musicians ever. Why wouldn't I want to see each of them be "selfish" on their records? My theory is, if you have the talent, why not use it!? still makin my point... just accept there is one record with no solos   Really? What point exactly.   I have 'accepted' it. Like I said, I like VT. It's good.   The whole point of this thread is a comparison of VT to S&A.   VT is good. S&A is better. Missing guitar solos = Bummer   I accept this. maybe adamant is a better word for some people than pissed. I just kinda sit back sometimes and look at the "passionate critiques" of the later albums and it seems to be very adamantly possessing of a tantrum like attitude. like THEY ARE NOT DOING WHAT I WANT THEM TO DO! SO I WILL ATTACK EVERY MENTION OF IT!!! I WANT MY (insert fave era/album here) LIKE STUFF.

[EmotionDetector]

QUOTE (ucsteve667 @ Nov 30 2011, 11:14 PM)

maybe adamant is a better word for some people than pissed. I just kinda sit back sometimes and look at the "passionate critiques" of the later albums and it seems to be very adamantly possessing of a tantrum like attitude. like THEY ARE NOT DOING WHAT I WANT THEM TO DO! SO I WILL ATTACK EVERY MENTION OF IT!!! I WANT MY (insert fave era/album here) LIKE STUFF.

 

I hear ya with that. Overall, I really like their later albums. Both Counterparts and S&A rank very high on my list of personal favourites.

 

I will also never understand the hate for TFE. A fantastic album as well.

 

The bottom line is...Rush put together such an unbelievable line of albums in the early years that people keep holding every new album up to that same standard. That's fair I guess...but the fact is, some of these albums have a 30 year difference, which is huge.

 

Also, many people have been around to follow them through most of their careers. I know for me personally, I only became a fan of the band in 1997, so already after Test For Echo. I've only been around for 2 studio releases so far (3 with Feedback I guess). Maybe that's why my standards are different?

[ucsteve667]

QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Nov 30 2011, 10:24 PM)

QUOTE (ucsteve667 @ Nov 30 2011, 11:14 PM) maybe adamant is a better word for some people than pissed. I just kinda sit back sometimes and look at the "passionate critiques" of the later albums and it seems to be very adamantly possessing of a tantrum like attitude. like THEY ARE NOT DOING WHAT I WANT THEM TO DO! SO I WILL ATTACK EVERY MENTION OF IT!!! I WANT MY (insert fave era/album here) LIKE STUFF.   I hear ya with that. Overall, I really like their later albums. Both Counterparts and S&A rank very high on my list of personal favourites.   I will also never understand the hate for TFE. A fantastic album as well.   The bottom line is...Rush put together such an unbelievable line of albums in the early years that people keep holding every new album up to that same standard. That's fair I guess...but the fact is, some of these albums have a 30 year difference, which is huge.   Also, many people have been around to follow them through most of their careers. I know for me personally, I only became a fan of the band in 1997, so already after Test For Echo. I've only been around for 2 studio releases so far (3 with Feedback I guess). Maybe that's why my standards are different? sure, that makes sense as much as those of us who have been around a while have trouble understanding how people might like the newer more than the older records and stuff. I myself am guilty of every pitfall, got into them in the 70's was pissed as hell about all the keyboards for a few years, came around, was disappointed with RTB after a few months, happy with CP and T4E, all great tours along the way, so on and so forth till today. I am still glad they are around, and proud of even what I dont dig on S&A, cause I know they mean it, and do it their way. And for f*ck sake, bringing back songs like Between The Wheels, Circumstances, Presto, Entre Nous, Camera Eye(I dont care how he sings it), Digital Man, then add in the heavy awesomeness of Caravan and BU2B just makes them veritable GODS to me.

[Silas Lang]

"I didn't want there to be a focus on a guitar solo in a song that had this kind of emotional content that a lot of these songs had. It just didn't seem right to me." - Alex Lifeson

 

"In a way it gave us an opportunity to stretch out and jam as a band, and a lot of the middle section of our songs are quite complex and go through lots of different changes on this record. So we're kind of all soloing together in a way, and I think it created a kind of modern and unique approach to the middle sections of songs." - Geddy Lee

 

I don't get why this is so unacceptable for some folks. There's 17 other records to listen to if guitar solos are what you want. They had to try something different so that it would be worth it for them to come back at all. Rush is all about not repeating themselves. That's why they stopped doing epic length songs, stopped working with Terry Brown, start to use keyboards and then eventually phasing them out, etc.

 

S&A was a different approach again, with more acoustic guitars throughout an entire album than ever before. I didn't like it very much at first but I've slowly warmed up to it and now the last few times I've listened I enjoy more than I ever have. I still much prefer Vapor Trails, however, in that I find it much more gritty, rocking and experimental. It has its own unique character and I don't mind so much if doesn't sound pristine and pretty.

[StellarJetman]

Vapor Trails has a tremendous amount of energy to it, and the production's a lot easier to ignore when I know that I'll be able to get a remix of it sometime in the near future. The constant "Geddy choir" grates, but I'm usually able to tune it out and focus on the songs themselves. It isn't one of Rush's best albums, but I do like it.

 

Snakes and Arrows is completely smothered in echoes and filters, drags horribly whenever it slows down - which is about half of the time - and has the most tiresomely preachy lyrics that I've ever heard on a Rush album, which is saying a lot. It's also the album where Geddy starts singing from his throat on the high notes; he'd been doing that with the older songs live for decades, but this was the first time that it happened on new material, and it really sours me on the album, especially combined with everything else that I've mentioned.

 

So, yeah, I voted for Vapor Trails.

 

QUOTE (Silas Lang @ Nov 30 2011, 09:52 PM)

I don't get why this is so unacceptable for some folks. There's 17 other records to listen to if guitar solos are what you want.

Here's a thought: what if the people who hate Vapor Trails are already doing that? What if it's because they hate Vapor Trails?

 

What the heck are you trying to say here?

Edited December 1, 2011 by StellarJetman

[RUSHHEAD666]

QUOTE (Analogkid1123 @ Mar 9 2008, 10:09 AM)

Snakes and arrows by far....i dont understand how VT can be considered better. Sure its a good album, but geddy's voice is too over produced,his voice has that same little pitch echo thing in EVERY song. +, the music just isnt as good as S&A. I just dont understand it.

I never voted on this one! S&A by a million miles of Vapor Trails!

[ucsteve667]

QUOTE (StellarJetman @ Nov 30 2011, 11:41 PM)

QUOTE (Silas Lang @ Nov 30 2011, 09:52 PM) I don't get why this is so unacceptable for some folks. There's 17 other records to listen to if guitar solos are what you want. Here's a thought: what if the people who hate Vapor Trails are already doing that? What if it's because they hate Vapor Trails?   What the heck are you trying to say here? im pretty sure its around about way of saying stop bitchin about no solos on VT...

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (ucsteve667 @ Nov 30 2011, 10:04 PM)

QUOTE (StellarJetman @ Nov 30 2011, 11:41 PM) QUOTE (Silas Lang @ Nov 30 2011, 09:52 PM) I don't get why this is so unacceptable for some folks. There's 17 other records to listen to if guitar solos are what you want. Here's a thought: what if the people who hate Vapor Trails are already doing that? What if it's because they hate Vapor Trails?   What the heck are you trying to say here? im pretty sure its around about way of saying stop bitchin about no solos on VT... really, the lack of solos is only one of so many elements wrong with the album.

[ucsteve667]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Dec 1 2011, 12:31 AM)

QUOTE (ucsteve667 @ Nov 30 2011, 10:04 PM) QUOTE (StellarJetman @ Nov 30 2011, 11:41 PM) QUOTE (Silas Lang @ Nov 30 2011, 09:52 PM) I don't get why this is so unacceptable for some folks. There's 17 other records to listen to if guitar solos are what you want. Here's a thought: what if the people who hate Vapor Trails are already doing that? What if it's because they hate Vapor Trails?   What the heck are you trying to say here? im pretty sure its around about way of saying stop bitchin about no solos on VT... really, the lack of solos is only one of so many elements wrong with the album. I rest my case heh