Neil's death and the concept of God and Time

[Running Rebel]

Regardless of Neil's thoughts on an afterlife or lack thereof, I'm just glad he spoke out at the hypocrisy of organized religion in America and the GOP party in general. Most people that call themselves "Christians" are anything but. If you have read his books, he goes into detail on his thoughts.

 

The Sense O'Clock News is the appropriate sub-forum for arguing religion and politics.

 

Ahem

[goose]

Regardless of Neil's thoughts on an afterlife or lack thereof, I'm just glad he spoke out at the hypocrisy of organized religion in America and the GOP party in general. Most people that call themselves "Christians" are anything but. If you have read his books, he goes into detail on his thoughts.

 

The Sense O'Clock News is the appropriate sub-forum for arguing religion and politics.

 

Ahem

 

[Fridge]

I'm guessing that Al and Ged used commonplace, well established language to describe their feelings at Neil's passing, and that it wasn't time to bring these concepts into the discussion as a distraction.

 

Neil, at least in his public pronouncements up to the end, appeared to believe that after life was complete, there is nothingness. Al and Ged, from what I've read, agree. There are many that don't. No one knows with certainty. But within their belief system, nothingness can be considered restful in the sense that there is no suffering, conflict, and disturbance. I see no contradiction there.

 

Nail on head.

[chemistry1973]

I was brought up to believe

The universe has a plan

We are only human

It's not ours to understand

The universe has a plan

All is for the best

Some will be rewarded

And the devil will take the rest

All is for the best

Believe in what we're told

Blind man in the market

Buying what we're sold

Believe in what we're told

Until our final breath

While our loving Watchmaker

Loves us all to death

In a world of cut and thrust

I was always taught to trust

In a world where all must fail

Heaven's justice will prevail

 

The joy and pain that we receive

Each comes with its own cost

The price of what we're winning

Is the same as what we've lost

Until our final breath

The joy and pain that we receive

Must be what we deserve

I was brought up to believe

-----

 

 

You can't get more honest than this.

 

Christianity tells you that 'God has a plan'.

 

Looking at this through the lens of NPs death, his observation is even more fascinating.

 

 

 

The Loving Watchmaker: time --- that's the gift. We have a series of moments and that's it. We have choices, but there is also fate. Time will grind us to nothing, and we will all be forgotten eventually.

 

The morality of one's life shouldn't come from scripture, or dogma, but from time, and the fear that comes with it: will we leave a better world for our children, or others we love? It's pretty simple.

 

The rewards to be reaped are here and now. You choose to be a good person because of those you love, not because you'll be guaranteed a spot in heaven. Even the Bible tells you that.

 

 

 

All is for the best

Believe in what we're told

 

 

 

This is how we explain painful realities to children, but it's not a way to accept a real, full life. If this was really the case in the real world, why civilize? Why create works, apply science, innovate better agriculture, explore space...? You don't accept the world as it is -- you work to change it for the better, NOW.

 

 

 

 

 

There is no afterlife. You live on through your children, deeds and your art. Choose your heaven now, and don't ascribe your beliefs onto others.

Edited January 14, 2020 by chemistry1973

[JARG]

Using this belief system I'm not understanding Geddy and Alex's official statement of R.I.P.

 

 

I never use 'RIP' myself, because as you suggest, it's nonsense. I suspect that Geddy and Alex, if they were actually responsible for that rather than someone in the band's management, used it only as a polite convention.

 

Which is how I use it, when I do.

[jbroad]

@goose

 

Then the concept of the official statement of R.I.P. is kinda hypocritical if Neil is no longer existing but forever abolished only leaving behind a legacy

 

Rest in peace (which comes from the Latin Requiescat in pace) wishes the deceased eternal peace in the afterlife.

 

Today's usage of the phrase is not hypocritical. It's merely one of a great many examples of older religious words and phrases being used in a secular context today. It's not much different than saying "goodbye" to someone or "bless you" when someone sneezes.

 

Yes, the mistake being made here is to confuse the use of ritualistic language with belief in the literal meaning of that language.

 

Death is one of a handful of occasions in life when we find the best way of expressing our thoughts and feelings is by recourse to time-tested and ancient language. By saying "rest in peace" are they implying a belief in an afterlife? No, they're using the phrase because "rest in peace" is what one says at a time like this. It's not intended as philosophical or religious commentary. Those words are used because they're familiar, and because they express the grief and wishes of those who are left behind.

 

Neil was explicitly clear about his religious beliefs during his lifetime. He wrote dozens of songs alluding to them, and thousands of words of prose on top of that. This isn't a case of "no atheists in a foxhole", this is just grieving humans attempting to come to terms with something beyond the understanding of the human mind, and reaching for the language that best approaches it.

 

And when we think about it, wishing peace to the deceased is more likely a wish for ourselves.

 

The deceased is, in fact, at peace. We are not. We're miserable. It's why we have funeral rituals; we have them to ease OUR pain.

 

Yes. This exactly. RIP Maestro and Go Pack Go!

[Jeffrey]

My first and last post on this subject. Neil is mocking religious beliefs with BU2B. Reading his books (and the lyrics to The Way The Wind Blows, Faithless, Armor and Sword and many more) the LAST thing that he believed was that the universe had a plan and it wasn't ours to understand (further criticism was made with the line "Lean not upon your understanding"). Specifically, Neil often referenced the ridiculousness of the concept that the joy and pain that one received must be deserved. Just look at his personal experiences with tragedies, how deserving was that? No wonder he never believed in that.