OFFICIAL Caravan and BU2B reaction thread

[rushgoober]

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE

Weren't they in the studio like 9 months for Snakes

 

Actually no, only a few weeks. Alex said it was the shortest recording session since AFTK. They spent a lot of time writing of course before they went in to record.

 

Bunch of grumpy-old-man syndrome in evidence around here. I don't think there's a song that Rush could write that would make some people feel like they're listening to Rush in high school again, in most cases it has less to do with the band and more to do with the fact that the listener isn't the same person he/she was decades ago. Amazing that at the same time some fans are claiming that Rush has become this lite-pop adult-contemporary kind of band others are claiming that Rush is going in the opposite direction and just being really heavy for the sake of being heavy.

 

I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.

Bill Cosby

 

 

That's about right.

 

 

[High Water]

I am 100% certain its not the songs nor the songwriting that's confounding many.

 

Its the SOUND of it.

The Mix/Equipment/tonality/compression...........

 

If we could run those 2 new songs through a "Hemispheres filter" people would immediately recognize and fall in love with these songs.

 

Lets face it, its not only the songs we love about those older albums.

Its the CLEAN sound of the mixes.

AND the old equipment used to record it.

 

That stuff is gone forever and we will never hear Rush that way again.....very sad.

 

I for one am sick and tired of the "Wall of Sound" over compressed crap.

 

 

Don't get me wrong here, I really like these songs, especially Caravan, but its missing the clean "old equipment" sound that I fell in love with.

That has nothing to do with the songs themselves or there playing.

 

I just wish for fun they said TO HELL with new mixing boards, mikes, amps and recorded "New Songs" using old equipment.

 

I would bet my life people would finally say, WOW now thats what we wanted all along.

 

HW

 

 

 

 

 

 

[metaldad]

I did not listen for the last 2 days. They kick ass

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 10 2010, 02:06 PM)

Bunch of grumpy-old-man syndrome in evidence around here. I don't think there's a song that Rush could write that would make some people feel like they're listening to Rush in high school again, in most cases it has less to do with the band and more to do with the fact that the listener isn't the same person he/she was decades ago.

No way. I hear plenty of music I've never heard before that I get REALLY excited about. Usually that's older music I'm hearing for the first time, but it does happen with new music too sometimes.

 

When I first heard Far Cry, and especially when I first heard Armor & Sword, I was in absolute heaven. Have I changed that much in 3 years? I don't think so. I simply believe Caravan and BU2B aren't in the same league as those songs.

 

Their music over the last 20 years has experienced a sharp drop in album sales and radio play. Yes, the industry has changed, but not to that degree. Their music simply "in general" isn't as accessible and up to the standards it used to be, and the industry reflects this. Obviously us hardcore fans will buy anything new and debate it endlessly, but in the larger world their new music is making almost no impact. Even their recent surge in popularity is due to their longevity and legendary status, but not because of their music from the past 20 years or so. Their recent popularity has hardly made VT or S&A be able to go gold, and it's only because of their existing fanbase that they've done even as well as they have. Clockwork Angels, barring a really accessible hit (doubtful), should suffer the same fate. New fans who discover the band from say the documentary will flock to Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures, etc. - I really doubt many of them will think the newer stuff is as worthy.

 

Most people think their best days were in the 70's and 80's - that's an indisputable fact - not that they truly were the best days as that's subjective, but that most people think they were the best days. The consensus is overwhelming. Does that mean most people are wrong? It's the band. To say the band is as good as they ever were and if people can't see it, it's because of them doesn't make any sense to me. You can say they've evolved, and it's true, but the truth is in general most people don't love what they've evolved into as much as how they were before. This has nothing to do with the fact that we're glad they're still around and making music, it's just how most people feel.

 

I see a lot of people here come up with all kinds of exotic reasons to justify why people have opinions they disagree with. I've done that many times myself. When I first came here I came up with all kinds of ancillary reasons why people would love VT when I didn't because it was incomprehensible to me. The simple truth was some people just loved it no matter how I tried to create extenuating circumstances why they liked it. Similarly, some people just aren't digging the vibe of these two new songs, and that's just the way it is. Believe me, I WANT to be totally gaga over them, but I'm just not.

Edited June 10, 2010 by rushgoober

[PariahDog]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 10 2010, 04:51 PM)

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 10 2010, 02:06 PM) Bunch of grumpy-old-man syndrome in evidence around here. I don't think there's a song that Rush could write that would make some people feel like they're listening to Rush in high school again, in most cases it has less to do with the band and more to do with the fact that the listener isn't the same person he/she was decades ago. No way. I hear plenty of music I've never heard before that I get REALLY excited about. Usually that's older music I'm hearing for the first time, but it does happen with new music too sometimes.   When I first heard Far Cry, and especially when I first heard Armor & Sword, I was in absolute heaven. Have I changed that much in 3 years? I don't think so. I simply believe Caravan and BU2B aren't in the same league as those songs.   Their music over the last 20 years has experienced a sharp drop in album sales and radio play. Yes, the industry has changed, but not to that degree. Their music simply "in general" isn't as accessible and up to the standards it used to be, and the industry reflects this. Obviously us hardcore fans will buy anything new and debate it endlessly, but in the larger world their new music is making almost no impact. Even their recent surge in popularity is due to their longevity and legendary status, but not because of their music from the past 20 years or so. Their recent popularity has hardly made VT or S&A be able to go gold, and it's only because of their existing fanbase that they've done even as well as they have. Clockwork Angels, barring a really accessible hit (doubtful), should suffer the same fate. New fans who discover the band from say the documentary will flock to Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures, etc. - I really doubt many of them will think the newer stuff is as worthy.   Most people think their best days were in the 70's and 80's - that's an indisputable fact - not that they truly were the best days as that's subjective, but that most people think they were the best days. The consensus is overwhelming. Does that mean most people are wrong? It's the band. To say the band is as good as they ever were and if people can't see it, it's because of them doesn't make any sense to me. You can say they've evolved, and it's true, but the truth is in general most people don't love what they've evolved into as much as how they were before. This has nothing to do with the fact that we're glad they're still around and making music, it's just how most people feel.   I see a lot of people here come up with all kinds of exotic reasons to justify why people have opinions they disagree with. I've done that many times myself. When I first came here I came up with all kinds of ancillary reasons why people would love VT when I didn't because it was incomprehensible to me. The simple truth was some people just loved it no matter how I tried to create extenuating circumstances why they liked it. Similarly, some people just aren't digging the vibe of these two new songs, and that's just the way it is. Believe me, I WANT to be totally gaga over them, but I'm just not. Jeez, looks like somebody struck a nerve. Just kidding.   But, seriously, I have been thinking myself that age may be playing some factor in how much folks like the new songs. I'm on my way to being a myself, but as a guitar player I always loved Iron Maiden, Metallica, and later Rage Against the Machine, Soundgarden, etc., so I've never had a problem with heavier music.   But the new songs are heavier than anything on S&A (except maybe the bridge of Armor & Sword) so I can see where this may be throwing some folks off. But to me, saying the new songs are "too heavy" is just as strange as saying that S&A was "adult contemporary."   I also believe that what some folks really seem to crave is a return to the high-energy, major-key, optimistic Rush era of PeW, MP, PoW, and HYF. The new songs are certainly high-energy, but they're also very dark, with minor-key and chromatic riffs, minor-key vocal melodies, and pretty dark lyrics.

Edited June 11, 2010 by PariahDog

[snowdog2112]

Well, that's cool. I obviously didn't mean that everyone is like that but it certainly is the case with a lot of people including many I know personally. I have a friend from high school who is a Led Zeppelin fanatic, we only talk infrequently now and often never even discuss music. This guy lived and breathed LZ when we were teenagers and still says he loves them whenever we do talk about music. In 2003 when the Led Zeppelin dvd boxset and the "How the West Was Won" live album came out which generally everyone considers to be stellar I asked him what he thought and he didn't even know about them. Later, I asked him if he got them and he said he had but that he hadn't really spent much time with them. Finally, he told me that he listened to the live album on a long car trip but that he just couldn't get into it like his other LZ stuff. That cd package is from the "golden era" of Zeppelin, has 3 cds worth of great sounding songs with great sound quality and performances and he just doesn't care. Its only crime is that he has no history with it. He still hasn't even watched all the dvd stuff as of the last time I talked to him. I guarantee you that if it had been released in 1972 when it was new and he had grown up with it he would worship every note on it. He simply doesn't have the long term connection to it and no matter how great it is it will never give him the same warm fuzzies as the dramatically inferior The Song Remains the Same. And that's with classic era stuff that was new to him. Can you imagine if Led Zeppelin reunited (and even was able to reanimate Bonham) and released new music? There is no way he would ever accept it as being as good no matter what they made. It would have to compete against many decades of familiarity and memories which is just an unfair measurement. That's what I'm talking about with the grumpy-old-man syndrome. But I'm not saying everyone is like that.

 

 

 

QUOTE

Their music simply "in general" isn't as accessible and up to the standards it used to be, and the industry reflects this

 

 

Well, but see, a lot of other fans think the problem with modern Rush is that it's too accessible and "normal" and not as weird and adventurous as it used to be. That's all I'm saying, they can't win with everyone.

 

 

[WCFIELDS]

After several listens to both....

 

Caravan 6/10

BU2B - 6.5/10

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 04:47 PM)

After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10

FAIL.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PariahDog]

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 06:47 PM)

After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10

For comparison, what was your favorite S&A track and how would you rate it?

 

 

 

 

[trenken]

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 06:47 PM)

After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10

Id give it the same for Caravan, but BU2B is a 7.5 for me. I dont know, it's just more pleasing to my ears. Guess I like that song more than you. Dont like the lyrics much, but the music and melodies work for me.

 

 

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 10 2010, 05:21 PM)

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 06:47 PM) After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10 Id give it the same for Caravan, but BU2B is a 7.5 for me. I dont know, it's just more pleasing to my ears. Guess I like that song more than you. Dont like the lyrics much, but the music and melodies work for me. really? a 6 for Caravan is not a bad score. I thought you loathed it.

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE

I also believe that what some folks really seem to crave is a return to the high-energy, major-key, optimistic Rush era of PeW, MP, PoW, and HYF. The new songs are certainly high-energy, but they're also very dark, with minor-key and chromatic riffs, minor-key vocal melodies, and pretty dark lyrics.

 

I think that there probably is something to that but on the other hand albums like 2112 and GUP also are pretty dark musically and very dark lyrically. Even a lot of MP is pretty dark lyrically; dystopian future police state, isolation and alienation, the mob mentality.

[WCFIELDS]

QUOTE (PariahDog @ Jun 10 2010, 06:10 PM)

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 06:47 PM) After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10 For comparison, what was your favorite S&A track and how would you rate it? Armor and Sword   8/10

[PariahDog]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 10 2010, 07:23 PM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 10 2010, 05:21 PM) QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 06:47 PM) After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10 Id give it the same for Caravan, but BU2B is a 7.5 for me. I dont know, it's just more pleasing to my ears. Guess I like that song more than you. Dont like the lyrics much, but the music and melodies work for me. really? a 6 for Caravan is not a bad score. I thought you loathed it. I dunno, 60% is a low D or high F, right?

[WCFIELDS]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 10 2010, 05:56 PM)

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 04:47 PM) After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10 FAIL.                   actually BU2B would be more like a 7.......

[quickfree]

Play BU2B at a faster speed in Media Player and it kicks much more ass. Even the corny organ part. Why did they add that part? Very Roll The Bones-y.

[trenken]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 10 2010, 07:23 PM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 10 2010, 05:21 PM) QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 06:47 PM) After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10 Id give it the same for Caravan, but BU2B is a 7.5 for me. I dont know, it's just more pleasing to my ears. Guess I like that song more than you. Dont like the lyrics much, but the music and melodies work for me. really? a 6 for Caravan is not a bad score. I thought you loathed it. Well to me a 6 isnt a good score for a Rush song, I wouldnt rate any Rush song below a 5. Even their worst songs get at least a 5 just because its Rush.   If another band wrote Caravan id give it a 4 or so, I dont know.   I dont hate everything about the song. I like the energy, like the verse music, the lyrics are decent.

[WCFIELDS]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 10 2010, 07:30 PM)

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 10 2010, 07:23 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 10 2010, 05:21 PM) QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 06:47 PM) After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10 Id give it the same for Caravan, but BU2B is a 7.5 for me. I dont know, it's just more pleasing to my ears. Guess I like that song more than you. Dont like the lyrics much, but the music and melodies work for me. really? a 6 for Caravan is not a bad score. I thought you loathed it. Well to me a 6 isnt a good score for a Rush song, I wouldnt rate any Rush song below a 5. Even their worst songs get at least a 5 just because its Rush.   If another band wrote Caravan id give it a 4 or so, I dont know.   I dont hate everything about the song. I like the energy, like the verse music, the lyrics are decent. My only problem with it, is the vocal melodies.....I think the verses are a bit bland, and the chorus could've been much stronger. Musically, it's fine....The chorus needs more than "I can't stop thinking big" over and over......IMO

Edited June 11, 2010 by WCFIELDS

[pedro2112]

QUOTE (*Limelight* @ Jun 10 2010, 02:59 AM)

Again my reaction stays the same as before. Meh. Nothing groundbreaking, nothing overly impressive. Brb while i go put on FBN or HYF.

Not a bad idea. No matter how mediocre you think a new song is, just put on HYF to remind yourself how really awful a Rush album can actually be.

[Rush Cocky]

QUOTE (PariahDog @ Jun 10 2010, 07:06 PM)

I also believe that what some folks really seem to crave is a return to the high-energy, major-key, optimistic Rush era of PeW, MP, PoW, and HYF. The new songs are certainly high-energy, but they're also very dark, with minor-key and chromatic riffs, minor-key vocal melodies, and pretty dark lyrics.

Well put.

 

A lot of that has to do with the lyric WRITER, which has me wondering if someone else penned the lyrics for the next album might we have such a return. But in reality, all of Rush is getting old, and there might not be much of a difference in the lyrical content.

[Khan]

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 07:51 PM)

QUOTE (PariahDog @ Jun 10 2010, 06:10 PM) QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 06:47 PM) After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10 For comparison, what was your favorite S&A track and how would you rate it? Armor and Sword   8/10 Oh yeah...the most kick ass track on that one for sure!

[trenken]

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 10:05 PM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 10 2010, 07:30 PM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 10 2010, 07:23 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 10 2010, 05:21 PM) QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ Jun 10 2010, 06:47 PM) After several listens to both.... Caravan 6/10 BU2B - 6.5/10 Id give it the same for Caravan, but BU2B is a 7.5 for me. I dont know, it's just more pleasing to my ears. Guess I like that song more than you. Dont like the lyrics much, but the music and melodies work for me. really? a 6 for Caravan is not a bad score. I thought you loathed it. Well to me a 6 isnt a good score for a Rush song, I wouldnt rate any Rush song below a 5. Even their worst songs get at least a 5 just because its Rush.   If another band wrote Caravan id give it a 4 or so, I dont know.   I dont hate everything about the song. I like the energy, like the verse music, the lyrics are decent. My only problem with it, is the vocal melodies.....I think the verses are a bit bland, and the chorus could've been much stronger. Musically, it's fine....The chorus needs more than "I can't stop thinking big" over and over......IMO Yeah I was talking to my stepdad about that. We both agree it just seems like the song was rushed, didnt have enough time in the oven to develop, cook a little longer, since they were trying to get this done before the tour.   Musicially it's pretty strong, but the lyrics and vocal melodies are just weak throughout, they never get really good. I said earlier maybe it was their intention for this to just be a musical song, the vocals secondary to that, but Im not a big fan of songs like that anymore, I was when I was a kid, but obviously others are just fine with it, so this song was written for them, not me or you.

[ghostworks]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/4WAT/YETI/bu2b_11.jpg

[WCFIELDS]

QUOTE (lonelymoon @ Jun 9 2010, 06:36 PM)

On another level, it's hard to believe that this is the same band that wrote YYZ, or Freewill, or Spirit of Radio.  It is nowhere near that level of composition and production and any honest person with a pair of ears can tell you that.  I still find it perplexing that these guys would not sit down in the studio and say, "okay, we have all the money we need.  we are just doing this for the love of the music and we can afford all the studio time in the world.  Let's take our time and make something really good for our fans.  Let's make sure these songs have great production, arrangements, a blistering guitar solo, great hook riff, hummable vocable melody.  Let's top Tom Sawyer or Closer To The Heart, because after all we have 30 years more experience at writing rock songs and enough money to take our time and develop and revise ideas."  (S n A was 3 years ago.)  Instead this stuff sounds like a cut and paste jam although yes, flashes of the old glory are evident... but I think they are just too rich now to care enough anymore.  Alex writes a riff in a hurry and emails it Geddy so he doesn't miss his tee off time on the golf course.  That sort of thing.  Maybe the lesson is that rich jaded people don't have much left to say.  Alex is trying to hard to be super-heavy.  He is still in the throes of a midlife crisis  and doesn't want to be like Eric Clapton playing the geriatric-shuffle version of Layla.  It's like he's telling us, "forget my bald spot:  I crank a heavier, more badass riff than I did in '76 on 2112.  He needs to give his head a shake.

I don't care about the "you can't please everyone" crap.....for the most part, this is a good post....

Edited September 24, 2011 by WCFIELDS