Cygnus Xanadu-1 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Listening to the album a sudden thought struck me. Did Neil base the character of the Watchmaker on himself? Let's think about it, both the character and Neil are both described as being "rigid" and "immovable". They create the devices need to keep time in there worlds and both are at the very core of there creations. A drummer such as Peart has to keep time and create devices (musically speaking) that fulfil this task. So does a watchmaker, except in this case, I am speaking in terms of horology. There instruments are always precise, always accurate. They also appear to have similarities in there philosophical views, since both rigidly keep to there ideologies whilst still finding ways of contemplating and understanding the ideas of others. There rigidity and time-keeping however is what gives it away for us. This maybe just an insane rant but the similarities are uncanny, so it remains an open possibility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony R Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaked Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slack jaw gaze Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 He's written about the inspirations for the story. I don't know why he would lie about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkingBig Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Pretty sure NP based the hero's journey on his own journey. Thought that was pretty obvious. The watchmaker--only gets mentioned in two songs. Have to wait for the book to find out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro2112 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (Tony R @ Jun 10 2012, 07:38 AM) No +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Ways Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Where is Neil described as rigid and immovable? In one of the songs? In the liner notes? Where is this coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 10 2012, 07:44 AM) Pretty sure NP based the hero's journey on his own journey. Thought that was pretty obvious. Exactly. He's the protagonist in the concept, not in the fictionalized specifics, but in the philosophical arc of the story - it's got his philosophy all over it. He is NOT the watchmaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony R Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (Ancient Ways @ Jun 10 2012, 07:50 PM) Where is Neil described as rigid and immovable? In one of the songs? In the liner notes? Where is this coming from? A lack of education allied with rank stupidity. The OP has never heard of Richard Dawkins, let alone The Blind Watchmaker. USA education - sponsored by nanotechnology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeduck Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Rushgoober is the Watchmaker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 10 2012, 11:56 AM)Rushgoober is the Watchmaker! http://www.exchristian.net/uploaded_images/complication-749596.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeduck Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 10 2012, 01:58 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 10 2012, 11:56 AM)Rushgoober is the Watchmaker! http://www.exchristian.net/uploaded_images/complication-749596.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArrowSnake Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 10 2012, 07:54 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 10 2012, 07:44 AM) Pretty sure NP based the hero's journey on his own journey. Thought that was pretty obvious. Exactly. He's the protagonist in the concept, not in the fictionalized specifics, but in the philosophical arc of the story - it's got his philosophy all over it. He is NOT the watchmaker. Exactly. Neil is the hero of the story, definitely not The Watchmaker. The Watchmaker is clealy a nod to the "Watchmaker analogy" which originally was an argument for the existence of God. (It states that an intelligent design like the universe must have been designed by someone, like a watch). But Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins came up with theories where a design is not necessary. (Evolution). So, Neil is bashing faith again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 10 2012, 12:13 PM)QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 10 2012, 01:58 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jun 10 2012, 11:56 AM)Rushgoober is the Watchmaker! http://www.exchristian.net/uploaded_images/complication-749596.png http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e85/rushgoober6/gooberwatchmaker.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theredtamasrule Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (ArrowSnake @ Jun 10 2012, 02:28 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 10 2012, 07:54 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 10 2012, 07:44 AM) Pretty sure NP based the hero's journey on his own journey. Thought that was pretty obvious. Exactly. He's the protagonist in the concept, not in the fictionalized specifics, but in the philosophical arc of the story - it's got his philosophy all over it. He is NOT the watchmaker. Exactly. Neil is the hero of the story, definitely not The Watchmaker. The Watchmaker is clealy a nod to the "Watchmaker analogy" which originally was an argument for the existence of God. (It states that an intelligent design like the universe must have been designed by someone, like a watch). But Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins came up with theories where a design is not necessary. (Evolution). So, Neil is bashing faith again. This. It's a thinly (and I mean razor thin) veiled reference to Dawkins' Watchmaker. Just as with Rand, Peart basically parrots his philosophical heros. I cannot believe he doesn't see this in his writing, it's pretty blatant. It's a good thing his drumming on CA is monstrous badassery so I can overlook it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (theredtamasrule @ Jun 10 2012, 01:10 PM) QUOTE (ArrowSnake @ Jun 10 2012, 02:28 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 10 2012, 07:54 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 10 2012, 07:44 AM) Pretty sure NP based the hero's journey on his own journey. Thought that was pretty obvious. Exactly. He's the protagonist in the concept, not in the fictionalized specifics, but in the philosophical arc of the story - it's got his philosophy all over it. He is NOT the watchmaker. Exactly. Neil is the hero of the story, definitely not The Watchmaker. The Watchmaker is clealy a nod to the "Watchmaker analogy" which originally was an argument for the existence of God. (It states that an intelligent design like the universe must have been designed by someone, like a watch). But Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins came up with theories where a design is not necessary. (Evolution). So, Neil is bashing faith again. This. It's a thinly (and I mean razor thin) veiled reference to Dawkins' Watchmaker. Just as with Rand, Peart basically parrots his philosophical heros. I cannot believe he doesn't see this in his writing, it's pretty blatant. It's a good thing his drumming on CA is monstrous badassery so I can overlook it. major bonus points for "monstrous badassery!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArrowSnake Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (theredtamasrule @ Jun 10 2012, 09:10 PM) QUOTE (ArrowSnake @ Jun 10 2012, 02:28 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 10 2012, 07:54 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 10 2012, 07:44 AM) Pretty sure NP based the hero's journey on his own journey. Thought that was pretty obvious. Exactly. He's the protagonist in the concept, not in the fictionalized specifics, but in the philosophical arc of the story - it's got his philosophy all over it. He is NOT the watchmaker. Exactly. Neil is the hero of the story, definitely not The Watchmaker. The Watchmaker is clealy a nod to the "Watchmaker analogy" which originally was an argument for the existence of God. (It states that an intelligent design like the universe must have been designed by someone, like a watch). But Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins came up with theories where a design is not necessary. (Evolution). So, Neil is bashing faith again. This. It's a thinly (and I mean razor thin) veiled reference to Dawkins' Watchmaker. Just as with Rand, Peart basically parrots his philosophical heros. I cannot believe he doesn't see this in his writing, it's pretty blatant. It's a good thing his drumming on CA is monstrous badassery so I can overlook it. Overlook what? You don't like the nod to the watchmaker analogy? I think it's clever. He doesn't parrot his philosophical heros, it's just a clever little nod to a term used in philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy I love the work Neil has done with his lyrics on this record. Far from a clever little nod...a brilliant use as a matter of fact. Edited June 10, 2012 by Jeffrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theredtamasrule Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (ArrowSnake @ Jun 10 2012, 03:17 PM) QUOTE (theredtamasrule @ Jun 10 2012, 09:10 PM) QUOTE (ArrowSnake @ Jun 10 2012, 02:28 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 10 2012, 07:54 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 10 2012, 07:44 AM) Pretty sure NP based the hero's journey on his own journey. Thought that was pretty obvious. Exactly. He's the protagonist in the concept, not in the fictionalized specifics, but in the philosophical arc of the story - it's got his philosophy all over it. He is NOT the watchmaker. Exactly. Neil is the hero of the story, definitely not The Watchmaker. The Watchmaker is clealy a nod to the "Watchmaker analogy" which originally was an argument for the existence of God. (It states that an intelligent design like the universe must have been designed by someone, like a watch). But Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins came up with theories where a design is not necessary. (Evolution). So, Neil is bashing faith again. This. It's a thinly (and I mean razor thin) veiled reference to Dawkins' Watchmaker. Just as with Rand, Peart basically parrots his philosophical heros. I cannot believe he doesn't see this in his writing, it's pretty blatant. It's a good thing his drumming on CA is monstrous badassery so I can overlook it. Overlook what? You don't like the nod to the watchmaker analogy? I think it's clever. He doesn't parrot his philosophical heros, it's just a clever little nod to a term used in philosophy. Yeah, maybe "overlook" wasn't what I was shooting for..at this point I expect Peart's philosophy (or at least the philosophy of who he's presently reading) to be obvious in his lyrics. The overall arc & theme for the CA character is basically a rehashing of his recent lyrics dressed up in steampunk. Tiresome for me usually but in this case his drumming performance is so spectacular that he could be writing horror gore metal lyrics and I pretty much wouldn't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArrowSnake Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (Jeffrey @ Jun 10 2012, 09:20 PM) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy I love the work Neil has done with his lyrics on this record. Far from a clever little nod...a brilliant use as a matter of fact. I think the lyrics on CA are brilliant too. I just meant the use of the name Watchmaker is a clever little nod to the Watchmaker argument, which it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theredtamasrule Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 QUOTE (ArrowSnake @ Jun 10 2012, 03:48 PM) QUOTE (Jeffrey @ Jun 10 2012, 09:20 PM) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy I love the work Neil has done with his lyrics on this record. Far from a clever little nod...a brilliant use as a matter of fact. I think the lyrics on CA are brilliant too. I just meant the use of the name Watchmaker is a clever little nod to the Watchmaker argument, which it is. I will say that I love the lyrics for CA, Carnies and The Anarchist. Wonderful melding of words and tunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanaseb Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Whoa..... interesting theory.... dunno how'd it work but lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaked Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I'm still amazed that people haven't made the connection between The Watchmaker and Prime Mover.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_mover A hypothetical person that has a significant impact on society and history due to the exercise of their free will, unfettered by external psychological influences or social forces; also the name of the theory that affirms the existence and possibility of such people. Regarding socio-political complexity, the term Prime Mover describes any influence upon a social group that leads to a higher degree of societal complexity. Definition: Prime Mover - a self-caused agent that is the cause of all things; "God is the first cause." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc4gd Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 QUOTE (theredtamasrule @ Jun 10 2012, 01:39 PM)QUOTE (ArrowSnake @ Jun 10 2012, 03:17 PM) QUOTE (theredtamasrule @ Jun 10 2012, 09:10 PM) QUOTE (ArrowSnake @ Jun 10 2012, 02:28 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Jun 10 2012, 07:54 PM) QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jun 10 2012, 07:44 AM) Pretty sure NP based the hero's journey on his own journey. Thought that was pretty obvious. Exactly. He's the protagonist in the concept, not in the fictionalized specifics, but in the philosophical arc of the story - it's got his philosophy all over it. He is NOT the watchmaker. Exactly. Neil is the hero of the story, definitely not The Watchmaker. The Watchmaker is clealy a nod to the "Watchmaker analogy" which originally was an argument for the existence of God. (It states that an intelligent design like the universe must have been designed by someone, like a watch). But Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins came up with theories where a design is not necessary. (Evolution). So, Neil is bashing faith again. This. It's a thinly (and I mean razor thin) veiled reference to Dawkins' Watchmaker. Just as with Rand, Peart basically parrots his philosophical heros. I cannot believe he doesn't see this in his writing, it's pretty blatant. It's a good thing his drumming on CA is monstrous badassery so I can overlook it. Overlook what? You don't like the nod to the watchmaker analogy? I think it's clever. He doesn't parrot his philosophical heros, it's just a clever little nod to a term used in philosophy. Yeah, maybe "overlook" wasn't what I was shooting for..at this point I expect Peart's philosophy (or at least the philosophy of who he's presently reading) to be obvious in his lyrics. The overall arc & theme for the CA character is basically a rehashing of his recent lyrics dressed up in steampunk. Tiresome for me usually but in this case his drumming performance is so spectacular that he could be writing horror gore metal lyrics and I pretty much wouldn't care. Thanks for the insights all..............yeah I guess it will be more clear once the book comes out..........but then, maybe not........ "aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrh, I'm the Watchmaker...........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrh, I will kill you %$#^%$^! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 The problem is I think for some is he doesn't really have any of his own ideas. He just takes what he's read and twists it around, sometimes tries to mask it, sometimes not (Xanadu being the best example). He can never be looked at as a great philosopher like some of the people he looks up to because they formulated their own original ideas and concepts, and that's not what he does. That isnt a knock against him. It's clear he isnt even trying to be looked at in that way otherwise he would be coming up with his own ideas for things. All of it is rooted in his disbelief in god and disdain for organized religion. It's very similar to S&A except that this is written in a story manner and uses a fantastical setting to dress it up. It's not so different than 2112, hence why the cover points to that because the concepts are related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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