Can someone explain the VT hate to me?

[Gilbertk]

I've heard the whole album many times, on CD, MP3, and also the fan remaster on FLAC, and I don't really hear a difference. Nothing really stands out as different. Now I can hear the difference between say.. 128 and 320kbit/s or whatever quality difference there is, so it's not like I'm deaf to audio quality. But what is so bad about Vapor Trails that everyone loves to tear it up???

 

 

The songwriting isn't AMAZING, but it's not bad.. I don't listen to the album much but when I do I listen straight through and never have any complaints. We all know what happened before that album, so when they recorded the album, they we starting with a few years of new experiences, new musical inspirations, and new surroundings.. So maybe it wasn't what everyone wanted, but so what? They're the ones in the band and we all love them for doing what they want and not caring what people think... so please people stop criticizing them for not doing what YOU want.

 

 

But my question is... people LOVE to bitch about the mixing and compression on Vapor Trails and act like it makes the album impossible to listen to and it needs to be completely remixed and mastered. I mean.. what is so bad about it? Is it really a problem or do people just need something to bitch about?? I have yet to yank my headphones out of my ears or kick over my speakers because the mixing was so offensive to hear.

 

Seriously, can someone explain the problem?

[canadianice]

I don't get it either?, I love the Album Some(most) people on here, just feel the need to bitch and moan(amatuer audio engineers)

[The K Man]

Some of the melodies are really weird and clunky. Listen to The Stars Look Down and One Little Victory to hear what I am talking about.

 

Personally, while VT is a bottom 4 Rush album for me (along with Rush, Presto and Test for Echo), I do love Earthshine, Freeze, Nocturne and Vapor Trails.

Edited April 7, 2012 by The K Man

[clem]

If I had to pick one thing, it would be the overall sound and the production. It just sounds too distorted, crunchy and muffled for my tastes. When I listen with headphones - I end up with a headache.

 

Of course, I'm guessing there is a lot of music out there that has a similar feel, especially around the time the album came out - so I admire the guys for trying something different. Anytime a band goes in a slightly different direction sound-wise, they'll lose some fans. I'm convinced this happened to Rush big-time around Power Windows and Hold Your Fire. The keyboard phase was just too much for some to handle. Personally, I didn't mind since I grew up in the 80s and that "sound" was pretty much everywhere.

 

When Vapor Trails first came out, I worked in the music industry and got an advanced copy of the CD. After I listened to it, I SWORE I was listening to an "unfinished version" and couldn't wait for the legitimate release to come out. Of course, the advanced copy WAS the finished version - much to my dismay.

 

I have to also honestly say, that most of the songs just don't resonate that well with me. There's probably only about 5 that I like, so there may be other factors. I find it odd that there are almost no guitar solos either.

 

So it's a lot of things, but I know how you feel. I love S&A, and am surprised that there are just as many (if not more) that dislike that record so much. I've always said - I'm glad people have different tastes. It makes the world so much more enjoyable. Don't you think?

 

Clem

 

 

[CrossedSignals]

 

I happen to love VT. So much energy and passion oozing out of every song... and everything sounds fluid and loose. It might be my favorite since Power Windows (but HYF and Counterparts come close).

 

As for the mix, yeah, it's shoddy. But the heavy, sludge-like, wall-of-sound suits these tracks much better than it would the songs on any other Rush album.

[danielmclark]

It took me a while, but I've come to really love that album, compression and all. The problem I had with it early on wasn't the mixing, mastering, brickwalling or anything production-wise, it was the lack of solos, and the same-ness of the songs. Over time though, I learned to appreciate the more subtle differences and now each song really does seem unique. It helps that I listen to the songs primarily as part of playlists and not all bunched up.

 

Explain the hate? Some people are audio snobs and bitch about production values that 99% of us can't hear or don't care about. Others don't think the lyrics are up to snuff, and that's okay. Still others aren't thrilled about the songs musically for a variety of reasons.

[canadianice]

Let's not forget, they were almost done, during this period of time, due to Neil's tragedies, in his personal life!. The album was a triumphant return in my eyes. One HUGE Victory

[Dylan2712]

One Little Victory in one of my top favourite Rush tunes, however, i only listen to the remixed version. i also love Secret Touch; the heavy compression/limiting works for that song-it's very much "in-your-face". i never got into the rest of the album, it just needs more rotation for me. If they come out with a remastered version, i'd definitely get it.

 

and to whomever posted about people being "audio snobs", i can assure you that trained ears can hear compression, EQ, reverb etc... its odd that the audio engineers who recorded/mixed/mastered (wherever it went wrong) this album, didn't think this was a problem. but then again, as someone mentioned earlier, super loud CD's were the norm in the early 2000's.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Dylan2712

[presto123]

QUOTE (Dylan2712 @ Apr 7 2012, 12:51 PM)

One Little Victory in one of my top favourite Rush tunes, however, i only listen to the remixed version. i also love Secret Touch; the heavy compression/limiting works for that song-it's very much "in-your-face". i never got into the rest of the album, it just needs more rotation for me. If they come out with a remastered version, i'd definitely get it. and to whomever posted about people being "audio snobs", i can assure you that trained ears can hear compression, EQ, reverb etc... its odd that the audio engineers who recorded/mixed/mastered (wherever it went wrong) this album, didn't think this was a problem. but then again, as someone mentioned earlier, super loud CD's were the norm in the early 2000's.

That was a flat out mistake. It's one thing to mix/master a CD loud but on VT the waves are actually clipping off. That is an audio no no and an amateurish mistake. I still have a hard time believing it got released like that when it is something I can check on my home computer in 2 minutes. I love the record but it really is time the band makes this right.

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (Dylan2712 @ Apr 7 2012, 11:51 AM)

and to whomever posted about people being "audio snobs", i can assure you that trained ears can hear compression, EQ, reverb etc...

Yes, and those people tend to be audio snobs because they are the only people who actually care about such minor details in music. The vast, vast majority of listeners aren't doing it on high-end equipment, they aren't trained (your word, not mine) to hear the things you're talking about - compression, EQ, reverb (although reverb is way more obvious, usually, than other fine details).

 

In defense of using the word snob, many audiophiles I know embrace the word and wear it with pride (much like I call myself a geek, proudly). And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

And if there is an aspect of insult to it, it's only because of the people who trash VT and those of us that like it, 90% of them are bashing us because we can't hear the imperfections that they do. "You've got to be some sort of idiot to like VT, the clipping gives me a headache and makes me want to stab a baby" is a pretty common sentiment. "Snob" is me being gentle when describing that type of person.

[CrossedSignals]

QUOTE (presto123 @ Apr 7 2012, 01:00 PM)

QUOTE (Dylan2712 @ Apr 7 2012, 12:51 PM) One Little Victory in one of my top favourite Rush tunes, however, i only listen to the remixed version. i also love Secret Touch; the heavy compression/limiting works for that song-it's very much "in-your-face". i never got into the rest of the album, it just needs more rotation for me. If they come out with a remastered version, i'd definitely get it. and to whomever posted about people being "audio snobs", i can assure you that trained ears can hear compression, EQ, reverb etc... its odd that the audio engineers who recorded/mixed/mastered (wherever it went wrong) this album, didn't think this was a problem. but then again, as someone mentioned earlier, super loud CD's were the norm in the early 2000's. That was a flat out mistake. It's one thing to mix/master a CD loud but on VT the waves are actually clipping off. That is an audio no no and an amateurish mistake. I still have a hard time believing it got released like that when it is something I can check on my home computer in 2 minutes. I love the record but it really is time the band makes this right. I have a hard time believing the engineer(s) who worked on VT didn't notice or didn't hear the clipping. It was an artistic choice. A somewhat misguided one, but still a choice.

[Hatchetaxe&saw]

Good God, no sign of "himself" yet. Though he'd be all over it, like a rash caught from a diseased Red Barchetta.

[Pound of Obscure]

QUOTE (Gilbertk @ Apr 7 2012, 09:31 AM)

Seriously, can someone explain the problem?

Its a not very good album, destroyed by noise.

 

I've always tried not to be too hard on it because the sound quality makes it unlistenable, and a few of the songs had potential I think. Plus it is a very important album. (It wasn't over).

 

Its just not very good and the parts that are, hurt my ears.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Pound of Obscure

[Dylan2712]

QUOTE

QUOTE (Dylan2712 @ Apr 7 2012, 11:51 AM) and to whomever posted about people being "audio snobs", i can assure you that trained ears can hear compression, EQ, reverb etc... Yes, and those people tend to be audio snobs because they are the only people who actually care about such minor details in music. The vast, vast majority of listeners aren't doing it on high-end equipment, they aren't trained (your word, not mine) to hear the things you're talking about - compression, EQ, reverb (although reverb is way more obvious, usually, than other fine details).   In defense of using the word snob, many audiophiles I know embrace the word and wear it with pride (much like I call myself a geek, proudly). And there's nothing wrong with that.   And if there is an aspect of insult to it, it's only because of the people who trash VT and those of us that like it, 90% of them are bashing us because we can't hear the imperfections that they do. "You've got to be some sort of idiot to like VT, the clipping gives me a headache and makes me want to stab a baby" is a pretty common sentiment. "Snob" is me being gentle when describing that type of person.     strange enough, i agree with you. as with anything, there are people who know what they're taking about and then there's people that talk out of their ass.   even though im only an audio engineering student, part of our course was to do these exercises which trains us to hear things like compression, EQ, reverb, 1ms-50ms Delay; all of these and more in either one or both channels.   even with my limited "ear training" (legit, what the school calls it), i can hear the over-compressed sound on Vapor Trails as well as other music. with Vapor Trails or Metallica's "Death Magnetic", its much more obvious than say on "The Camera Eye". my guess is people who heard VT and could hear something "wrong" with the mix didn't fully understand it until they were able to put a name to it.   but, using the term "snob" to describe people who respond to the sound of VT as you have quoted, is a fair assessment. but keep in mind, there are people who can hear these things and know what it is. some of us aren't assholes.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Dylan2712

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Gilbertk @ Apr 7 2012, 09:31 AM)

I've heard the whole album many times, on CD, MP3, and also the fan remaster on FLAC, and I don't really hear a difference. Nothing really stands out as different. Now I can hear the difference between say.. 128 and 320kbit/s or whatever quality difference there is, so it's not like I'm deaf to audio quality. But what is so bad about Vapor Trails that everyone loves to tear it up??? The songwriting isn't AMAZING, but it's not bad.. I don't listen to the album much but when I do I listen straight through and never have any complaints. We all know what happened before that album, so when they recorded the album, they we starting with a few years of new experiences, new musical inspirations, and new surroundings.. So maybe it wasn't what everyone wanted, but so what? They're the ones in the band and we all love them for doing what they want and not caring what people think... so please people stop criticizing them for not doing what YOU want. But my question is... people LOVE to bitch about the mixing and compression on Vapor Trails and act like it makes the album impossible to listen to and it needs to be completely remixed and mastered. I mean.. what is so bad about it? Is it really a problem or do people just need something to bitch about?? I have yet to yank my headphones out of my ears or kick over my speakers because the mixing was so offensive to hear. Seriously, can someone explain the problem?

Some of the more delicate RUSH fans who have trendy bleach blonde haircuts and are into Soft Cell, ABC and Haircut One Hundred and who really got comfy with RUSH in their 80s synth pop phase, got really bent out of shape when RUSH returned to metal. Culminating in VT which made them shit their MC Hammer pantaloons in pure fright and got them very, very nervous, very,very leery about listening to RUSH which forced them to return to their Spandau Ballet albums. Nowadays you see these fans at Lady Gaga concerts and Justin Beiber Appreciation Society meetings...

 

[New World Kid]

Old Rush good, new Rush bad.

 

Vapor Trails is my favorite Rush album. It's not metal though, it's hard rock.

 

But what wins me over are the lyrics, which are on a profoundly different level than any other Rush album, in my opinion.

[CrossedSignals]

QUOTE (New World Kid @ Apr 7 2012, 03:09 PM)

Old Rush good, new Rush bad. Vapor Trails is my favorite Rush album. It's not metal though, it's hard rock. But what wins me over are the lyrics, which are on a profoundly different level than any other Rush album, in my opinion.

 

Some of the best lyrics Peart's written, I'd say. They're somehow spiritual, intellectual, romantic, and down-to-earth in equal measure. He traverses the whole gamut of human emotion.

 

And did I mention the music rawks?

[The Cat 3]

Beats me...

 

...I happen to really like Vapor Trails, it has some very high moments in my opinion.

 

But, then again, I love Snakes and Arrows.

 

~RGLT

[Ancient Ways]

I don;t see how any normal person can't hear it. It does not take an audio snob to figure out it sounds like shit. I am no snob: I listen to mostly mp3 quality music on car speakers or $10 headphones. I don't have vinyl. However, it has been demonstrated time and again that this is not an opinion but a fact. There are threads here with links to audio analysis of songs from VT compared to earlier Rush songs and you can hear and see the difference. I don't hate the album. It has the best songs since the 80s imo. It's a shame it doesn't sound good.

[presto123]

QUOTE (CrossedSignals @ Apr 7 2012, 01:24 PM)

QUOTE (presto123 @ Apr 7 2012, 01:00 PM) QUOTE (Dylan2712 @ Apr 7 2012, 12:51 PM) One Little Victory in one of my top favourite Rush tunes, however, i only listen to the remixed version. i also love Secret Touch; the heavy compression/limiting works for that song-it's very much "in-your-face". i never got into the rest of the album, it just needs more rotation for me. If they come out with a remastered version, i'd definitely get it. and to whomever posted about people being "audio snobs", i can assure you that trained ears can hear compression, EQ, reverb etc... its odd that the audio engineers who recorded/mixed/mastered (wherever it went wrong) this album, didn't think this was a problem. but then again, as someone mentioned earlier, super loud CD's were the norm in the early 2000's. That was a flat out mistake. It's one thing to mix/master a CD loud but on VT the waves are actually clipping off. That is an audio no no and an amateurish mistake. I still have a hard time believing it got released like that when it is something I can check on my home computer in 2 minutes. I love the record but it really is time the band makes this right. I have a hard time believing the engineer(s) who worked on VT didn't notice or didn't hear the clipping. It was an artistic choice. A somewhat misguided one, but still a choice. Artistic choice by the band? To send out a record that is clipping? I have a hard time fathoming that. I think a mistake was made somewhere along the way.

[CrossedSignals]

QUOTE (presto123 @ Apr 7 2012, 03:46 PM)

QUOTE (CrossedSignals @ Apr 7 2012, 01:24 PM) QUOTE (presto123 @ Apr 7 2012, 01:00 PM) QUOTE (Dylan2712 @ Apr 7 2012, 12:51 PM) One Little Victory in one of my top favourite Rush tunes, however, i only listen to the remixed version. i also love Secret Touch; the heavy compression/limiting works for that song-it's very much "in-your-face". i never got into the rest of the album, it just needs more rotation for me. If they come out with a remastered version, i'd definitely get it. and to whomever posted about people being "audio snobs", i can assure you that trained ears can hear compression, EQ, reverb etc... its odd that the audio engineers who recorded/mixed/mastered (wherever it went wrong) this album, didn't think this was a problem. but then again, as someone mentioned earlier, super loud CD's were the norm in the early 2000's. That was a flat out mistake. It's one thing to mix/master a CD loud but on VT the waves are actually clipping off. That is an audio no no and an amateurish mistake. I still have a hard time believing it got released like that when it is something I can check on my home computer in 2 minutes. I love the record but it really is time the band makes this right. I have a hard time believing the engineer(s) who worked on VT didn't notice or didn't hear the clipping. It was an artistic choice. A somewhat misguided one, but still a choice. Artistic choice by the band? To send out a record that is clipping? I have a hard time fathoming that. I think a mistake was made somewhere along the way. A lot of bands (especially right around the early-mid 2000s) were doing it.   I can't really see them not noticing... or not double-checking before just sending it out to the world. I'm sure they listened and listened again and said, "alright, sounds good."   I know they've said in interviews since that they regret the mix job though. I still haven't heard any of the remixed tracks. I know One Little Victory/Earthshine got remixed for Retrospective3, but did the VT remix album ever come out?

[metaldad]

The people that hate VT are the same ones that think S&A was great/good/decent/listenable/worth the $10 they paid for it .

[Cyclonus X-1]

I wouldn't quite say that the album is headache inducing, and I wouldn't say that the sound issues completely ruin the thing, but they really do make a mess of it at times. Ceiling Unlimited is a good track with an awesome bass solo, but the production problems render it a heap of audible slobbery.

[Presto-digitation]

The album sounds like a butt-full of gas, sonically, but the songs are quite fine to me.

[An Enemy Without]

Haven't we had this discussion like eight thousand times?