Neil Before or After Freddie Gruber's Teaching?

[Griffon]

Uhm, I guess I'll be the wishy-washy one in the room and venture that I haven't noticed it all that much.

 

Not because I haven't noticed a change, but because concurrent with his drums taking a lighter hand, Alex and Geddy have a had more room to breathe and do some innovative stuff with their instruments. I recently re-listened to Vapor Trails and thought "Man, there's some really good bass and guitar driving this more than the drums. It sounds kinda different, kinda the same."

 

It might just be, like the keyboards era, that this is something they play with for awhile, and then they change their approach because they hit a dead end.

 

I think it's good occasionally, and it keeps things interesting, that every now and again things rotate and something else comes into the lead--er, if that makes any sense. I kinda like that Rush always evolves, sheds what's stopped working, and goes off in all sorts of interesting evolutions and configurations.

 

Yeah, I know: wishy-washy.

[Todem]

QUOTE (Drummerrobin @ Jun 17 2011, 07:09 AM)

QUOTE (Todem @ Jun 17 2011, 06:52 AM) QUOTE (Drummerrobin @ Jun 17 2011, 06:45 AM) QUOTE (New World Kid @ Jun 16 2011, 10:39 PM) After. I've answered this question like 4 times in my TRF career, lol. I usually say something like: As a drummer, I find it's very easy to create complicated parts in songs that will really make people notice you and go "wow." I think it takes significantly more creative to find a beat, rhythm, fill, etc. that isn't going to make people notice you, but the song, and still go "wow." It's one of the reasons I like Gavin Harrison so much. I feel like that's where Neil, After Gruber, is going. More for the song, not for the drummer. Yes, that's exactly how I feel. I am also a huge Gavin Harrison fan for the same reason. I think he sums up the issue very well here:   It's very interesting that it generally seems to be drummers (like me) who prefer his playing after the change, which is the outcome I suspected. Maybe it's because his playing gained in subtleties (more ghost notes, more pocket, etc) that drummers can identify with but non-drummers can't so much. The main attractions to non-drummers are the more obvious traits - speed, aggression etc which are more evident in his playing before. And what's also weird is that all my favourite rush albums are before the change and obviously I can't deny that his input was a big part of it. Yet from a drumming point of view I find TFE onwards to be far more satisfying. Makes me wonder what the younger Neil would have sounded like if he'd had lessons earlier on than he did. Guess we'll never know! I am a guitarist but I also play the drums for some fun (have a V-Kit in the house).   I am not one who thinks this. And I know plenty of Drummers who prefer before than now. Not even close actually. That's cool. I'm not trying to make any hard and fast rules here - it was only an observation of the thread so far. I could be completely wrong! Oh yeah just talking shop it's all good.

[drbirdsong]

I like all Rush albums to some extent or other so it is a hard choice. He was a wonderful drummer before with a lot more aggression and flash. Now he is the seasoned veteran. I remember reading that Geddy was a little worried when he started the lessons and then when they got in the studio he said, oh, you sound the same. Neil explained then that it was more of a technique change.

 

If you sit around thinking old Rush good, new Rush bad or the opposite then where do you draw that line? When does new Rush become old Rush? What if we never knew he had had the lessons? He still does it these days. If you read Far And Away he talks about further lessons with other drummers.

 

The best way to decide is at the live shows. The old songs still rock and he is still innovating on the new songs. Watch one of the newer DVDs and you will see that he is still one of the best. I wouldn't call him the best because it is subjective. I love unique drumming and Neil qualifies.

 

Edited June 17, 2011 by drbirdsong

[druid13]

[Todem]

QUOTE (Atomic @ Jun 17 2011, 08:18 AM)

Why is everyone blaming Gruber for what they percieve as a change in drumming from Neil and ONLY because of Gruber? NEP is aging. Do you really think Gruber had that much of an affect on a guy who's been playing drums for maybe 40 years before visiting Gruber? I have trouble believing that. If there's a perceived change in Neil's drumming, I wouldn't put it down to being tutored by Gruber but rather a combination of aging (the body can't be thrashed for as long the way it used to), 'so why not write drum parts that are more playable for a guy my age so when I play the oldies, I can hammer it' sort of idea. And there's also musical maturity. It's not how many notes I can cram into a time signature, it's how I make those notes work. I find Neil a much more disciplined drummer now. He still kicks ass and I find when he now plays old stuff, he's throwing in fills where there never were, and it sounds freakin' great! And really, splitting hairs on whether Neil was better before Gruber or as good after is moot. He's still the same guy, still drumming and being recognized for his drumming skills and influencing muscians the world over. He's likely in the autumn of his musical career... and still rocking hard!

I don't think it is all about Freddy forcing or being soley responsible for the change in Neils approach.

 

Neil was looking for another voice and another way to approach the drums. I have always admired this. Amazing how what is widely considered the best modern rock drummer of our generation was learning a different approach. Of course he already can play anything give or take.

 

Superb.

 

I love his work on Test For Echo, Vapor Trails and Snakes and Arrows. He still has classic Neil all over the place. It is just a matter of preference. I like the adventure and innovation of his earlier work (much like I prefer Rush 78-87 as the very best overall musical output of their careers). Same for Neil. He (as well as Rush) made his mark on rock history during those years.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Todem

[tangy]

QUOTE (Atomic @ Jun 17 2011, 08:18 AM)

Why is everyone blaming Gruber for what they percieve as a change in drumming from Neil and ONLY because of Gruber? NEP is aging. Do you really think Gruber had that much of an affect on a guy who's been playing drums for maybe 40 years before visiting Gruber? I have trouble believing that. If there's a perceived change in Neil's drumming, I wouldn't put it down to being tutored by Gruber but rather a combination of aging (the body can't be thrashed for as long the way it used to), 'so why not write drum parts that are more playable for a guy my age so when I play the oldies, I can hammer it' sort of idea. And there's also musical maturity. It's not how many notes I can cram into a time signature, it's how I make those notes work. I find Neil a much more disciplined drummer now. He still kicks ass and I find when he now plays old stuff, he's throwing in fills where there never were, and it sounds freakin' great! And really, splitting hairs on whether Neil was better before Gruber or as good after is moot. He's still the same guy, still drumming and being recognized for his drumming skills and influencing muscians the world over. He's likely in the autumn of his musical career... and still rocking hard!

 

 

[Jaminbenb]

I don't think that Gruber changed the "mind behind the music" I think he changed his approach to the kit as well as his overall technique.

 

I've been playing all my life, and have nasty pain at times from overdoing it. BUT, I think my hands would be much worse had it not been for an instructor I had in drum corps. We used to do exercises for HOURS on end, boring stuff...single hand, single strokes, left, then right, roll breakdowns, isolated diddle patterns, etc...nothing over the top notes wise, but good strong basic hand stuff. He ALSO made sure that our hand movement, and stick placement was correct, A. so we all looked the same and B. so we didn't get into any bad habits "posture" wise.

 

I honestly think that my hands would be hamburger had I not gone through those years of "basics"...

 

That said, my thought process, and playing didn't suffer. I think Neil PLAYS what he feels compliments the music, I don't think that working with Freddie "tainted" his writing talent, I think it helped his stamina, and makes his hands feel better after hitting it hard for a three hour show. I just think that if Freddie hadn't worked with him, his parts would be less involved because his hands are beat up!

 

 

[jnoble]

My favorite 'drum' album in terms of playing and the way the drums sound is always going to be FBN. I don't care that Neil is much more experinced and polished and mature and has better quality drums etc etc etc..... that album will always be my favorite.

[druid13]

In terms of officially sanctioned released recorded solos....I have to go wiht Exit Stage Left followed by ATWAS.....both are legendary Neil.

 

Although this old one is very cool....I hear some 70's Bozzio influence going on there too. it's pretty "young drummer" sounding...but has alot of energy too.

[The Big Money]

Before of course, no doubt about it.

[Jaminbenb]

QUOTE (jnoble @ Jun 17 2011, 02:23 PM)

My favorite 'drum' album in terms of playing and the way the drums sound is always going to be FBN. I don't care that Neil is much more experinced and polished and mature and has better quality drums etc etc etc..... that album will always be my favorite.

I have to go with ATWAS...it was the first Rush album I ever heard, and where I first heard the "solo"! (and that will always be THE solo!) As far as the "sound" of the drums and cymbals, I LOVE Caress of Steel! Give that a good critical listen, and you'll see what I mean!

 

Some of the 'unauthorized' recordings I have from that time period and before show Neil playing his "Plebeian ass" off especially on some of the tunes that he DIDN'T record...a short while later he started getting a tad more "organized" in his playing and he pretty much played the same thing night to night (this was WAY before Freddie got hold of him)

 

 

[trenken]

As Neil has gotten older he's become very influenced by big band and jazz playing. You can hear it in what he does on Rush albums now. Some of the fills he does now are very typical in that type of music, things he never did in the old days, and sometimes they sound awkward and out of place to me.

 

He's taken on a much more passive role on the drums, not as aggressive or adventurous as he once was. I hope with the new album knowing it could easily be their last, I hope he just goes nuts again, but I think for that to happen he would need to be pushed. Hopefully Nick can push him much further than he did on S&A.

[hammerofthor]

He is not a natural player, he has admitted this. He's had to work very hard to get where he is. Unfortunately I don't think you can become a great feel and groove player by just working hard at it. You can improve somewhat, but at the elite level, you either have it or you don't. Neil seems likes he's working harder to play less. He should go back to his strengths and stop trying to be a half assed swing drummer. If he needs something to practice, go attempt to play Roseanna by Toto. I would love to hear what that sounds like.

[HigherWater]

I went with 'before' pretty much on instinct. Though I think it's like asking, "Do I prefer beer from the cooler or the fridge?" I pretty happy with both!

 

Neil's drumming on HYF, Presto, RTB and CP is incredible but I can see why he wanted to change things up a bit. I kind of wish he would have stayed with the traditional grip and feel for a few more albums. As maligned as T4E is on this board, the drumming is inspired. Neil really sits in the pocket on Half the World, Driven and even Totem. On VT however he's back on top of the rhythm.

 

 

[Jaminbenb]

On VT he hadn't picked up a pair of sticks for 5 years...I hate the album, but was glad they made it!

 

I've never been an advocate for traditional grip on set because it wasn't created for set playing! It was created because marching drums sat at an ODD angle and it was easier to play at that angle while holding the sticks in that manner. The fact that it MORPHED to set was odd...especially since snare drum is the ONLY percussion instrument that you PLAY with that grip! I know that there are people that seem to thrive on it, but I think it's a waste of energy and unnatural on a flat plane.

 

If any of you serious drumming enthusiasts have noticed, a lot of DCI corps have changed the angle on their snare drums to better accommodate this odd grip.

 

Personally, I'm glad he seemingly abandoned it, his wrist will thank him for it!

[WCFIELDS]

obviously before....

[metaldad]

Having seen many solo's before and after F.G. , imo, Before F.G. . Plus, after F.G., he does not look very comfortable playing the way his kit is set up . Electronics and Samples = Lazy I like when he had to Get up off his ass and play his percussion instead of hitting a Pad

[Jaminbenb]

QUOTE (metaldad @ Jun 18 2011, 04:39 PM)

Having seen many solo's before and after F.G. , imo, Before F.G. . Plus, after F.G., he does not look very comfortable playing the way his kit is set up . Electronics and Samples = Lazy I like when he had to Get up off his ass and play his percussion instead of hitting a Pad

There's a different nod! I'm not an advocate of the electronics, and agree that they are a lazy way of having EVERYTHING at your fingertips! I miss seeing the Timpani, gongs, chimes, orchestra bells, and other crazy stuff!

 

But...I guess it makes mic'ing easier, and puts it at "arms length" rather than forcing him to get up and whack something....good call!

[Phantom]

Drums on La Villa, Xanada, all of Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures were, and are, in my opinion, Neil at his best.

 

I'll go with before Freddie.

 

 

[jacklifeson]

I think it has less to do with Freddie Gruber and more to do with getting older and not caring that he has to prove himself anymore. I have played in bands for 25 years and counting (bass) and when I was younger I played with a lot of fire. These days I am happy to serve the song and simplify my parts to let others breathe.

[arushhead]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 16 2011, 10:24 AM)

Oh easily before. He seemed much more raw and energetic, a lot more bombastic which I prefer in a drummer. After he became a lot more low key, started sounding too technical and sounded like he was trained, unlike when he was younger, and I feel that he lost a lot of creativity in his fill work too. He had his own unique style before he took lessons, and after them he stated sounding like a lot of other drummers to me. When he was younger he was one of the most creative fill guys out there, throwing things in there that you wouldn't even think would fit, but he made it work, and after he just started doing a lot of standard issue type fills, thing that just sounded safe and predictable to me, everything sounded overly written and rehearsed, and in the old days it just sounded like he was flying on the edge of his seat all the time. I prefer that style in this kind of band. I prefer raw talent that hasnt been tampered with by someone on the outside. You develop your own style that way without lessons. Geddy said many times he plays the way he does because he never took lessons, and that makes his style unique.

well said i agree.obviously it was neil who decided to broaden his musical horizons,playing traditional grip etc.nothing worse than someone pointing out 'faults' in your playing style[too stiff,carpal tunnel]and you take the advice !