Leaving BU2B off of CA?

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 19 2010, 02:32 PM)

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Oct 19 2010, 03:19 PM) QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 19 2010, 02:17 PM) QUOTE (Blenderhead @ Oct 19 2010, 03:06 PM) QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 19 2010, 11:24 AM) Maybe the song is really about somebody who fixes watches? Maybe the "Watchmaker" is Father Time? "Time" may be explored as a concept again. This is what I was thinking.   How could a song about watches generate such a commotion? when you think about it, time gets every one of us. We start out young, live life, then we get old and die. Doesn't seem fair, but it's a fact of life. if you're lucky. What is scary is that so many folks I know that I grew up with look so much older than I do. Of course, having young looks has always been something that runs in our family. maybe you just handle stress better than they do.

[Mr. Not]

in other news:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geddy_Lee

 

 

err... LOL

[circumstantial tree]

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Oct 19 2010, 03:38 PM)

QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 19 2010, 02:32 PM) QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Oct 19 2010, 03:19 PM) QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 19 2010, 02:17 PM) QUOTE (Blenderhead @ Oct 19 2010, 03:06 PM) QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 19 2010, 11:24 AM) Maybe the song is really about somebody who fixes watches? Maybe the "Watchmaker" is Father Time? "Time" may be explored as a concept again. This is what I was thinking.   How could a song about watches generate such a commotion? when you think about it, time gets every one of us. We start out young, live life, then we get old and die. Doesn't seem fair, but it's a fact of life. if you're lucky. What is scary is that so many folks I know that I grew up with look so much older than I do. Of course, having young looks has always been something that runs in our family. maybe you just handle stress better than they do. No. Because I am constantly under stress!

[ridertoo98]

Na dont leave them off either one. The songs rock, said that when my gf gave me the songs on cd. Cant wait to see what the rest will be. I dont get that caught up in the words, some songs I do but these 2 I didnt. i understand them but I hear the music first. Just enjoy the tunes.

[SlyJeff]

QUOTE (Blenderhead @ Oct 19 2010, 02:06 PM)

QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 19 2010, 11:24 AM) Maybe the song is really about somebody who fixes watches? Maybe the "Watchmaker" is Father Time? "Time" may be explored as a concept again. This is what I was thinking.   How could a song about watches generate such a commotion? The "watchmaker" is a clear reference to God in the context of the song.

[laughedatbytime]

QUOTE (SlyJeff @ Oct 17 2010, 09:29 PM)

QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 17 2010, 07:53 PM) I think what we're trying to avoid here (and hoping Neil is too) is the militant-fundamentalist type of atheism that expresses hatred and disdain for anyone with spiritual or religious beliefs. All you have to do is go browse any internet message board that deals with religion to see that there are people out there who literally want all traces of religion wiped off the face of the Earth, and they're scarily similar to the religious extremists who want to kill people in the name of their "god". While I doubt Neil wishes physical harm to people of faith, my impression (based on his lyrics) is that he attributes a great deal of the pain in the world to religion. Of course, he's right, unfortunately- but it pains me he cannot see that that is not the entire story.   I've always imagined if I met him he would not care for me or respect me because I am a person of faith. In a way it makes me sad to feel that one of my "heroes" would not like me if we met, but then again it's a reminder that he is only human and not someone I should deify anyway (irony intended). At the end of the day, he's just an extremely talented guy who makes music I really enjoy. What he believes or would think of my beliefs isn't really the point.   Perhaps he might at least appreciate that I would never think him a "long awaited friend" As a Christian, while I don't agree with the sentiments in the lyrics to BU2B, I'm not really offended by them. In fact, of all of Neil's antireligion songs, the only one that I find really offensive is in "The Way the Wind Blows", where he seems to equate Christians from the heartland with the Islamists who have made the Middle East a living hell. This is something I'd expect to hear from Rosie O'Donnell, not the man who wrote so many great lyrics over the past 30 years (Dog Years excluded). One would expect that the writer of 2112, Natural Science, and Entre Nous would be able to draw a distinction between those who blow up innocent people rather than have girls get an education, and have popular support in doing so and Christians from the Midwest. I don't agree with everything conservative Christians do (I disagree with their stance on gay rights, for example), but to equate the two groups is just absurd.

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (laughedatbytime @ Oct 19 2010, 07:31 PM)

QUOTE (SlyJeff @ Oct 17 2010, 09:29 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 17 2010, 07:53 PM) I think what we're trying to avoid here (and hoping Neil is too) is the militant-fundamentalist type of atheism that expresses hatred and disdain for anyone with spiritual or religious beliefs. All you have to do is go browse any internet message board that deals with religion to see that there are people out there who literally want all traces of religion wiped off the face of the Earth, and they're scarily similar to the religious extremists who want to kill people in the name of their "god". While I doubt Neil wishes physical harm to people of faith, my impression (based on his lyrics) is that he attributes a great deal of the pain in the world to religion. Of course, he's right, unfortunately- but it pains me he cannot see that that is not the entire story.   I've always imagined if I met him he would not care for me or respect me because I am a person of faith. In a way it makes me sad to feel that one of my "heroes" would not like me if we met, but then again it's a reminder that he is only human and not someone I should deify anyway (irony intended). At the end of the day, he's just an extremely talented guy who makes music I really enjoy. What he believes or would think of my beliefs isn't really the point.   Perhaps he might at least appreciate that I would never think him a "long awaited friend" As a Christian, while I don't agree with the sentiments in the lyrics to BU2B, I'm not really offended by them. In fact, of all of Neil's antireligion songs, the only one that I find really offensive is in "The Way the Wind Blows", where he seems to equate Christians from the heartland with the Islamists who have made the Middle East a living hell. This is something I'd expect to hear from Rosie O'Donnell, not the man who wrote so many great lyrics over the past 30 years (Dog Years excluded). One would expect that the writer of 2112, Natural Science, and Entre Nous would be able to draw a distinction between those who blow up innocent people rather than have girls get an education, and have popular support in doing so and Christians from the Midwest. I don't agree with everything conservative Christians do (I disagree with their stance on gay rights, for example), but to equate the two groups is just absurd. or joy behar, who is the official spokesperson for erectile dysfunction.

[SlyJeff]

QUOTE (laughedatbytime @ Oct 19 2010, 07:31 PM)

QUOTE (SlyJeff @ Oct 17 2010, 09:29 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 17 2010, 07:53 PM) I think what we're trying to avoid here (and hoping Neil is too) is the militant-fundamentalist type of atheism that expresses hatred and disdain for anyone with spiritual or religious beliefs. All you have to do is go browse any internet message board that deals with religion to see that there are people out there who literally want all traces of religion wiped off the face of the Earth, and they're scarily similar to the religious extremists who want to kill people in the name of their "god". While I doubt Neil wishes physical harm to people of faith, my impression (based on his lyrics) is that he attributes a great deal of the pain in the world to religion. Of course, he's right, unfortunately- but it pains me he cannot see that that is not the entire story.   I've always imagined if I met him he would not care for me or respect me because I am a person of faith. In a way it makes me sad to feel that one of my "heroes" would not like me if we met, but then again it's a reminder that he is only human and not someone I should deify anyway (irony intended). At the end of the day, he's just an extremely talented guy who makes music I really enjoy. What he believes or would think of my beliefs isn't really the point.   Perhaps he might at least appreciate that I would never think him a "long awaited friend" As a Christian, while I don't agree with the sentiments in the lyrics to BU2B, I'm not really offended by them. In fact, of all of Neil's antireligion songs, the only one that I find really offensive is in "The Way the Wind Blows", where he seems to equate Christians from the heartland with the Islamists who have made the Middle East a living hell. This is something I'd expect to hear from Rosie O'Donnell, not the man who wrote so many great lyrics over the past 30 years (Dog Years excluded). One would expect that the writer of 2112, Natural Science, and Entre Nous would be able to draw a distinction between those who blow up innocent people rather than have girls get an education, and have popular support in doing so and Christians from the Midwest. I don't agree with everything conservative Christians do (I disagree with their stance on gay rights, for example), but to equate the two groups is just absurd. I've laminated many, many artistic works on the subject of religion that must cast the "other side" as hopelessly flawed. It seems that the only way to deal with religion is to paint the other side as a mortal enemy (and goodness knows Christians and non-beleivers are both VERY good at this) or to marginalize the belief or non-belief in a feel-good but empty notion of acceptance and tolerance.   I can't think of ANY decent artistic work (movie, song, whatever) that has dealt with the issue of religion in a subtle, but intelligent way. I'm going to veer into a dangerous area here, but I promise to bring it back around to Rush:   There's a guy I used to work with who was an agnostic and we talked about religion a lot. Because of his wife's convictions, they went to church every Sunday, but he told me he refused to take communion. Why? Because he said "If God really exists, I think he'd be pretty pissed at me not having faith and still trying to buy his favor through empty sacraments". He went on to tell me how silly it was that so many members at his church were similar to himself, but always acted purely religious on Sunday. In behavior they acted like there was no God, but on Sunday they paid lip service "just in case".   This stuck with me, because I think a LARGE part of the US falls into this category. They go through life as "believers" in word only- it doesn't impact their lives at all. And this is where Peart comes in: "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". AWESOME lyric targeted directly at that group in the middle- basically they are calling themselves believers because it was how they were brought up and they never chose NOT to be.   Based on that one single line, I think Neil could really have some powerful things to say about this dynamic, and he could do it without sounding so bitter at those who have really thought about and made a choice- just one that was different from his.   While I do not agree with those who choose differently than me, at least I respect them for their follow-through. Me- well, I kind of would hope the same would be viewed of me. I mean, I take a pretty fundamental view of Christianity. Basically, if I'm going to buy into something I want to go the whole way, because somewhere in the middle is kind of weak. Figure out what you believe (or don't) and then live it. Chaining yourself to religion on Sundays mornings and ignoring God the rest of the week is either a waste of a week or a waste of a Sunday morning.   The glimmer of this concept we got in "Freewill" has always made me think Neil could address this concept really well, and it would be a pretty positive message ("Think about what you believe and be true to it- don't blindly sit in the middle wasting your life"), but unfortunately it seems he bears too many scars from fundamentalists who have misused their faith to allow them much grace in his lyrics.     AAAANYWAY- sorry for that. I hope it isn't delving too much into religious topics for this part of the board. I really am NOT trying to get into specific religious discussion- it's just frustrating that no one seems to be able to deal with this topic with artistic subtlety and that frustrates me- especially because I think Neil would be a fantastic writer to do it.

[Faithless Mover]

Jesus was gay. That's why he didn't have any kids.

[Blenderhead]

QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 19 2010, 09:34 PM)

Jesus was gay. That's why he didn't have any kids.

Oh, shit

[shaun3701]

QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 19 2010, 08:34 PM)

Jesus was gay. That's why he didn't have any kids.

Way to go, you just insulted millions of people. Good thing you said Jesus instead of Muhammad, or you and your family would probably be killed.

[Faithless Mover]

QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 19 2010, 08:39 PM)

QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 19 2010, 08:34 PM) Jesus was gay. That's why he didn't have any kids. Way to go, you just insulted millions of people. Good thing you said Jesus instead of Muhammad, or you and your family would probably be killed. I kid, I kid. Jesus wasn't real.

[shaun3701]

QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 19 2010, 11:22 PM)

QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 19 2010, 08:39 PM) QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 19 2010, 08:34 PM) Jesus was gay. That's why he didn't have any kids. Way to go, you just insulted millions of people. Good thing you said Jesus instead of Muhammad, or you and your family would probably be killed. I kid, I kid. Jesus wasn't real. Actually he was, if you know your history. That's like saying Alexander the Great wasn't real. The subject of religious controversy is whether or not he was who he claimed to be.

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Oct 17 2010, 12:23 PM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 14 2010, 12:45 PM) Ok, I know there will be some major ing here, but it's something that's been weighing on me, and I need to say it.  While I'll certainly be in the minority here, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this.  Anyway, I would sure love it of BU2B got left OFF of CA.  Many years ago, I always looked forward to their new album knowing I was going to love it based on their history.  After awhile they stopped being consistent (IMHO), BUT I always would sincerely hope that their next album would be something special, and they have sometimes happily surprised me. And here I am waiting for their new album, already knowing that I really don't like one of the new songs.  I just find BU2B depressing, preachy and cynical.  It kind of sucks knowing they have an album coming out and I already know it's got at least one clunker on it (again, IMHO).  Caravan I'm not super crazy about, but I don't dislike it, and parts of it I think are really great.  I didn't love S&A all the way though, but it's at least half of a great album which I still appreciate and enjoy.  I can still hold out hope for that, but it's unfortunate that for me it's already got a strike against it before it's even finished. So here's my request for the band that they'll never see, and even if they did they'd ignore, and for which many fans will think I'm crazy to make.  Please leave BU2B OFF of the new album.  Keep it as a single b-side, and let's maybe move on to if not happier topics, at least some more neutral/benign ones?  Just one man's opinion... Did you really think you'd like EVERY song on the new album?? When was the last time that happened for you... Signals?   You were bound to dislike at least one song on this forthcoming album anyway, if not hate ten songs. You'll just have to deal with that and hope there's still three to ten songs you DO like... just as you've had to do in preparation for each of the last 8 albums or so. Remember Geddyrulz when we went over this exact thing with him about the whole "filler" concept? The idea being that goober thought that if Rush only released albums with half as many songs that they'd be better because they could trim the ones he didn't like. I told him it didn't matter what the total number was, he would likely only end up liking half because he wouldn't be the one to choose which songs were selected. I said that if they released an album with 6 songs he'd probably still think that 3 should have been dropped. Well, all this time later Rush releases 2 songs and he thinks that 50% of them should be dropped. It's exactly what I predicted. It's just hilarious to me and just goes to show that it has nothing to do with how many songs they release, some people just don't have the same tastes as the band (and a lot of their fans).

[Faithless Mover]

QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 19 2010, 11:46 PM)

QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 19 2010, 11:22 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 19 2010, 08:39 PM) QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 19 2010, 08:34 PM) Jesus was gay. That's why he didn't have any kids. Way to go, you just insulted millions of people. Good thing you said Jesus instead of Muhammad, or you and your family would probably be killed. I kid, I kid. Jesus wasn't real. Actually he was, if you know your history. That's like saying Alexander the Great wasn't real. The subject of religious controversy is whether or not he was who he claimed to be.

[snowdog2112]

[shaun3701]

QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 20 2010, 12:21 AM)

QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 19 2010, 11:46 PM) QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 19 2010, 11:22 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 19 2010, 08:39 PM) QUOTE (Faithless Mover @ Oct 19 2010, 08:34 PM) Jesus was gay. That's why he didn't have any kids. Way to go, you just insulted millions of people. Good thing you said Jesus instead of Muhammad, or you and your family would probably be killed. I kid, I kid. Jesus wasn't real. Actually he was, if you know your history. That's like saying Alexander the Great wasn't real. The subject of religious controversy is whether or not he was who he claimed to be. No need to bury your head in shame, many people are ignorant when it comes to history

[rushgoober]

[snowdog2112]

[Rush Cocky]

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 14 2010, 02:56 PM)

QUOTE (savagegrace26 @ Oct 14 2010, 11:49 AM) Guess you find thinking for oneself to be a bad thing since that seems to be the primary "message" of the lyrics. Well this thread should be indicative that thinking for yourself is something that I obviously do NOT think is a bad thing.   I wish that was the primary message of a song like BU2B and Faithless, but it goes beyond that to me and actually puts down people who view things in a certain way. Then again, not everyone will interpret their songs in the same way. When I say that I find it depressing, preachy and cynical, that's how I'm viewing it. Other people cheer it on as they did Faithless as it really being right on and in line with their views. That's fine, and they're entitled. I just don't see it that way.   I agree, I am not a fan of this song. It's got one good riff and that's it. But I don't see how it cannot be included in the album now that it's out there.

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Oct 20 2010, 07:13 AM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 14 2010, 02:56 PM) QUOTE (savagegrace26 @ Oct 14 2010, 11:49 AM) Guess you find thinking for oneself to be a bad thing since that seems to be the primary "message" of the lyrics. Well this thread should be indicative that thinking for yourself is something that I obviously do NOT think is a bad thing.   I wish that was the primary message of a song like BU2B and Faithless, but it goes beyond that to me and actually puts down people who view things in a certain way. Then again, not everyone will interpret their songs in the same way. When I say that I find it depressing, preachy and cynical, that's how I'm viewing it. Other people cheer it on as they did Faithless as it really being right on and in line with their views. That's fine, and they're entitled. I just don't see it that way.   I agree, I am not a fan of this song. It's got one good riff and that's it. But I don't see how it cannot be included in the album now that it's out there. I never thought for a millisecond in my wildest dreams that my little thread would accomplish anything concrete other than a discussion. I know it's going to be on the album. My only hope is that in the context of the concept it makes more sense and I can appreciate it more - somehow I doubt it, but I'll reserve final judgment until I hear the actual album...

[rushgoober]

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE

True, but what other criteria do we ever have to go by when we judge something as good or bad? I mean, I could go by what the general populace thinks, and if I was going to do that, I'd refer to my traditional quoting of a site like rateyourmusic.com, which to me is a more general consensus of what people think about Rush albums than just the hardcore fan base you'll find here. If you go by that, I gotta say that a majority of people would say that the band has declined in quality over the last few albums. But if you love the last 3 or 4 albums - who cares, right? Right. It's because in the end it doesn't matter what anyone says. You either like an album or a song or you don't.

 

Of course, but I don't have a problem with other people not liking the songs I like. I have a problem when other people (not just specifically you) think I shouldn't have the opportunity to enjoy my favorite songs because you've decided that they shouldn't even be available for me to hear based on your preferences. I mean, it's almost the equivalent of musical book-burning. That's why the whole concept of "filler" is non-sensical. The band wants it there, they aren't guaranteeing (and have no way of knowing ahead of time if) you'll like it.

 

QUOTE

To me one of the funniest arguments proposed on this thread is, why should they keep it off the album when obviously a lot of people here love it? I think that's somewhat of a moot point as if Rush farted into a microphone a lot of people here would still love it and not want it removed from an album. People would construct grand threads as to why The Fart Song was so grossly underrated.

 

Agreed. Need Some Love and Take a Friend come to mind. Fart songs. See how that works?

 

QUOTE

What he says outside of the context of an album means nothing to me personally. I care about Rush for their music. The only thing he says bluntly on RTB is in Ghost of a Chance, and I've never liked that song because I disagree with it so intensely. Too bad - pretty sounding song otherwise.

 

The point is you stated he has become a bitter old man which is affecting his lyrics. That's not the case.

 

And how did you miss:

 

I placed no trust in a faith that was ready-made

Take no chances on paradise delayed

 

... from The Big Wheel and more obviously:

 

Faith is cold as ice -

Why are little ones born only to suffer

For the want of immunity

Or a bowl of rice?

Well, who would hold a price

On the heads of the innocent children

If there's some immortal power

To control the dice?

 

... from Roll the Bones? Either God doesn't exist or else he couldn't give a crap, or even worse, he's a sadist. Those lines in RTB are a lot more hostile than anything in in BU2B or Faithless.

[ReflectedLight]

i never noticed that on rtb. i guess because it sucks so bad.

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Oct 20 2010, 08:06 AM)

QUOTE True, but what other criteria do we ever have to go by when we judge something as good or bad? I mean, I could go by what the general populace thinks, and if I was going to do that, I'd refer to my traditional quoting of a site like rateyourmusic.com, which to me is a more general consensus of what people think about Rush albums than just the hardcore fan base you'll find here. If you go by that, I gotta say that a majority of people would say that the band has declined in quality over the last few albums. But if you love the last 3 or 4 albums - who cares, right? Right. It's because in the end it doesn't matter what anyone says. You either like an album or a song or you don't Of course, but I don't have a problem with other people not liking the songs I like. I have a problem when other people (not just specifically you) think I shouldn't have the opportunity to enjoy my favorite songs because you've decided that they shouldn't even be available for me to hear based on your preferences. I mean, it's almost the equivalent of musical book-burning. That's why the whole concept of "filler" is non-sensical. The band wants it there, they aren't guaranteeing (and have no way of knowing ahead of time if) you'll like it. Yes, but I'm really just making an argument here. Obviously they're not going to leave it off the album just because I or anyone else doesn't like it, or calls any of their songs offensive or filler or whatever. I mean, I think VT should be pulled off the market as it's an embarrassment to their musical legacy, but that's not going to happen just because I think that. We're just talking here, right?   QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Oct 20 2010, 08:06 AM) QUOTE To me one of the funniest arguments proposed on this thread is, why should they keep it off the album when obviously a lot of people here love it? I think that's somewhat of a moot point as if Rush farted into a microphone a lot of people here would still love it and not want it removed from an album. People would construct grand threads as to why The Fart Song was so grossly underrated.   Agreed. Need Some Love and Take a Friend come to mind. Fart songs. See how that works?       QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Oct 20 2010, 08:06 AM) QUOTE What he says outside of the context of an album means nothing to me personally. I care about Rush for their music. The only thing he says bluntly on RTB is in Ghost of a Chance, and I've never liked that song because I disagree with it so intensely. Too bad - pretty sounding song otherwise. The point is you stated he has become a bitter old man which is affecting his lyrics. That's not the case.   How did you miss:   I placed no trust in a faith that was ready-made Take no chances on paradise delayed   ... from The Big Wheel and more obviously:   Faith is cold as ice - Why are little ones born only to suffer For the want of immunity Or a bowl of rice? Well, who would hold a price On the heads of the innocent children If there's some immortal power To control the dice?   ... from Roll the Bones? Either God doesn't exist or else he couldn't give a crap. Those lines in RTB are a lot more hostile than anything in in BU2B or Faithless. You got me there. There are a bunch of songs on RTB that I found so bad that I just didn't sit around and listen to them over and over and over and analyze their lyrics. Ghost of a Chance was on the radio - I couldn't miss that one.   Ok, you win, he's always been bitter. Not much of a prize, but there you go...