Great Songs...but..

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 20 2012, 01:41 PM)

QUOTE (Two0neOneTwo @ Jun 20 2012, 11:28 AM) On Clockwork Angels.......at the 33 sec mark. That into chord Alexs plays causes EVERYONE I've played this album for to cringe and flinch...a fast forward moment. I also notice the same cringe occurs ALL OVER this album once Alex starts playing some of his "sculpting parts". yeah, lowering the mids kinda helps. Rushman14,   Took your advice, but no, eq does not relieve the ache....lol   Here's an idea Rush could sync with....an open source Clockwork master release.   Let US your fans (after the tour of course) have at it with the master and let US create the ultimate master. Now that would be interesting..... (obviously one has to know and have the means to do this....)   A moving pictures type master of Clockwork? Or, maybe your flavor is Signals? etc.......   Yea..an open source Rush album.   Now who has the "best Rush"?

[lifeson90]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 19 2012, 01:59 PM)

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 19 2012, 11:57 AM) I thought he did. for some reason it was decided Nick would mix this album. just compare the 2 Caravans. I prefer Rich's mix. yeah, i was out listening to CA today on the ipod when caravan came on and it suddenly struck me that caravan has been raised to another level in some way, like it was a very good rush tune before but now it's in the rush classic category like SOR or something.....   i personally think the extra synths/bass effects etc have been the finishing touches and given the track that extra bit of class it needed   caravan and BU2B are still different quality to the other up-tempo songs on the album.... maybe the garden is on the same extremely high level and the title track/seven cities gives em a close run, but some of the rest are just fractionally below..... there arent any poor efforts this time which is great.

Edited June 20, 2012 by lifeson90

[Terrapin]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 20 2012, 05:26 PM)

QUOTE (Two0neOneTwo @ Jun 20 2012, 08:37 AM) I mean seriously, they obviously listened to this thing a million times before the release. Did NO ONE say, "Hey, thats kinda noisy isn't it?" No one?? right? I've asked myself this question 100 times. I think the answer (if there is a definitive answer) could be one of several possibilities based upon my assumption that the problem is with the mastering...   1. As is usually the case, the boys weren't present during the mastering sessions and dislike it as much as we do and too late to do anything about it due to contractual release dates etc...   2. The boys disliked it yet were told something along the lines of, "This is the way modern rock records are mastered these days, it sounds great guys!" and went along with it.   3. As Rick Wakeman once said, "Familiarity breeds contempt, but it also breeds acceptance" Perhaps after listening to it for weeks/months before its release they gradually came to believe that it sounded OK.   More cynically ....   4. They felt that they had done their jobs and left the mastering to the "professionals" to do their job and subsequently distanced themselves from it.   5. They have no power of veto with their record company regarding the mastering process.   It could be any number of reasons. Still, I feel that the problem is with the mastering process and not the actual mix, for which the boys would have been present.   To my ears it sounds like a clean mix (albeit somewhat loud) that was SLAMMED into a wall of compression during the mastering process...   One only has to compare CA with any number of their 70s/80's releases to notice the sonic differences, dynamics, light and shade etc...   For example, give 2112 a listen. During the "Soliloquy" section beginning at 15:57, the waterfall, guitar and vocals are subtle and clearly defined. When the whole band kicks in at 16:54 its MUCH louder, all three of them are playing far more aggressively and Geddy is screaming. However, everything is still clearly defined. This my friends, is what we call clarity, sonic space and ultimately, DYNAMICS.   All of which CA is completely devoid due to the mastering.   My humble opinion of course.

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 20 2012, 03:47 PM)

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 20 2012, 05:26 PM) QUOTE (Two0neOneTwo @ Jun 20 2012, 08:37 AM) I mean seriously, they obviously listened to this thing a million times before the release. Did NO ONE say, "Hey, thats kinda noisy isn't it?" No one?? right? I've asked myself this question 100 times. I think the answer (if there is a definitive answer) could be one of several possibilities based upon my assumption that the problem is with the mastering...   1. As is usually the case, the boys weren't present during the mastering sessions and dislike it as much as we do and too late to do anything about it due to contractual release dates etc...   2. The boys disliked it yet were told something along the lines of, "This is the way modern rock records are mastered these days, it sounds great guys!" and went along with it.   3. As Rick Wakeman once said, "Familiarity breeds contempt, but it also breeds acceptance" Perhaps after listening to it for weeks/months before its release they gradually came to believe that it sounded OK.   More cynically ....   4. They felt that they had done their jobs and left the mastering to the "professionals" to do their job and subsequently distanced themselves from it.   5. They have no power of veto with their record company regarding the mastering process.   It could be any number of reasons. Still, I feel that the problem is with the mastering process and not the actual mix, for which the boys would have been present.   To my ears it sounds like a clean mix (albeit somewhat loud) that was SLAMMED into a wall of compression during the mastering process...   One only has to compare CA with any number of their 70s/80's releases to notice the sonic differences, dynamics, light and shade etc...   For example, give 2112 a listen. During the "Soliloquy" section beginning at 15:57, the waterfall, guitar and vocals are subtle and clearly defined. When the whole band kicks in at 16:54 its MUCH louder, all three of them are playing far more aggressively and Geddy is screaming. However, everything is still clearly defined. This my friends, is what we call clarity, sonic space and ultimately, DYNAMICS.   All of which CA is completely devoid due to the mastering.   My humble opinion of course. Your humble opinion is dead on as far as I'm concerned. No one seems to realize that the songs on CA COULD have the same sonic separation and dynamic that older albums had, yet still be as fresh and new and AWESOME as the songs on CA are. It just takes someone to say NO! Isn't that what Rush has always done when faced with the industries status quo? Seems like they have given up on audio fidelity in favor of ear buds and crappy Chinese made computer speakers.   Blah. Good post.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Two0neOneTwo

[psionic11]

Don't forget that Geddy, Neil, and Alex all most likely have quite a bit of hearing loss.

 

I really like the idea of "Open Source" RUSH. Releasing individual tracks and letting fans re-mix and re-produce them. Genius.

 

There are many electronic acts that have their original music remixed by other DJ's... NIN is a great example... why not Rush?

[bytored]

QUOTE (psionic11 @ Jun 20 2012, 10:57 PM)

Don't forget that Geddy, Neil, and Alex all most likely have quite a bit of hearing loss.

Really!? might be some truth to it and how would one know this, for a fact?

[CantStopThinkingBig]

Music these days is made to be listened to on tiny earbuds... gone are the days of the home stereo. I haven't even owned a home stereo in over 10 years.

[pablorkcz]

QUOTE (CantStopThinkingBig @ Jun 20 2012, 09:42 PM)

Music these days is made to be listened to on tiny earbuds... gone are the days of the home stereo. I haven't even owned a home stereo in over 10 years.

Component rack stereos aren't as common these days but iPod docks, streaming audio from computers/storage and TV sound systems are pretty common and are often spruced up with good speakers and DACs.

 

A lot of people listen to music on more than small computer speakers and earbuds.

 

Hell, the recent vinyl resurgence shows that people are still interested in hearing music outside of iPods.

 

Even though Clockwork Angels may be a little compressed I think that the "loudness wars" have actually peaked and are starting to swing back the other direction.

[shail]

shame CA is brick walled to death. all music is these days. big wall of sound. after a few songs need a break cause my head can't take it.

 

for those that say vinyl sounds better it's the exact same product as the CD and digital release. it was recorded digitally folks. no smooth analog sound waves on your precious turn table.

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (shail @ Jun 21 2012, 09:01 AM)

shame CA is brick walled to death. all music is these days. big wall of sound. after a few songs need a break cause my head can't take it. for those that say vinyl sounds better it's the exact same product as the CD and digital release. it was recorded digitally folks. no smooth analog sound waves on your precious turn table.

I don't think CA is "brickwalled to death" as in VT.

Seeing some of the waveforms from CA its not as bad. There is definitely an improvement (Thank you Watchmaker). However, its still as you say, difficult to listen to at a decent volume for 66.06 minutes.

 

(Thats if your not counting ear buds, car audio, computer speakers...etc...)

 

If you have REAL speakers and real volume...meh a different story.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Two0neOneTwo

[trenken]

I dont even know where people are hearing an over bassy sound. What Im hearing is just sort of a muddy production. It's just not nearly as dynamic as something like Power Windows. Not close to as crisp and punchy.

 

I think the worst part of it for me is when they released Caravan and BU2B they sounded pretty good. The drums had real power to them, you can hear it in the kick drum, but then listen to them on the final album to compare them and the quality of the final mix has been ruined. It clearly doesnt sound as good when compared to the original releases and that extended into the recording of the rest of the songs.

 

They changed some things between that original recording session 2 years ago and when they got back together to finish it. If they do another album in 4 or 5 years, I really hope they go with another producer and engineer.

 

 

[bluefox4000]

It is my main problem with the album, and a path they've been following for a bit. It's why I'm not having the ear-gasims most people are. I connect fully connect to this record for the at times unbearable wall that hits me. Yes i've tried fiddling. does not help.

 

Mick

[Rushnutrick]

New member, Rush fan since Moving Pictures.

 

I happen to like the "balls" given to this album. Granted, I have to dial down the bottom end a bit. I am always tinkering with my EQ with any music these days. As for CA, I LOVE the album! I got the fanpack from CLassic Rock mag. IMO, these guys have yet to dissapoint me.

 

Cheers.

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 21 2012, 08:09 PM)

I think the worst part of it for me is when they released Caravan and BU2B they sounded pretty good. The drums had real power to them, you can hear it in the kick drum, but then listen to them on the final album to compare them and the quality of the final mix has been ruined. It clearly doesnt sound as good when compared to the original releases and that extended into the recording of the rest of the songs.

Yet in typical Trenken fashion, you acted like the condescending tool that you are when I mentioned I was worried about Caravan sounding different. Now here you are complaining about it, saying it is the worst part about the record. unbelievable.

 

Let's revist it shall we?

 

QUOTE (trenken @ Apr 25 2012, 09:56 AM)

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Apr 25 2012, 11:55 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Apr 25 2012, 09:51 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Apr 25 2012, 11:50 AM) I love Caravan too and am afraid the re-record will not be as good. Why are you afraid of that? Pretty sure they didnt rewrite the song, and I seriously doubt it will sound much different than the original version. because the original is perfect. You do understand they aren't rewriting the song, right? We're just about rerecording it here. It makes no difference since Im pretty sure it's the same 3 guys playing, and the same guys recording it.   People are weird sometimes.   I'm weird because I'm afraid it will sound different? the production on HF sounds different! For once can you stop being an argumentative troll?

[Tombstone Mountain]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 22 2012, 10:09 AM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 21 2012, 08:09 PM) I think the worst part of it for me is when they released Caravan and BU2B they sounded pretty good. The drums had real power to them, you can hear it in the kick drum, but then listen to them on the final album to compare them and the quality of the final mix has been ruined. It clearly doesnt sound as good when compared to the original releases and that extended into the recording of the rest of the songs. Yet in typical Trenken fashion, you acted like the condescending tool that you are when I mentioned I was worried about Caravan sounding different. Now here you are complaining about it, saying it is the worst part about the record. unbelievable.   Let's revist it shall we?   QUOTE (trenken @ Apr 25 2012, 09:56 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Apr 25 2012, 11:55 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Apr 25 2012, 09:51 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Apr 25 2012, 11:50 AM) I love Caravan too and am afraid the re-record will not be as good. Why are you afraid of that? Pretty sure they didnt rewrite the song, and I seriously doubt it will sound much different than the original version. because the original is perfect. You do understand they aren't rewriting the song, right? We're just about rerecording it here. It makes no difference since Im pretty sure it's the same 3 guys playing, and the same guys recording it.   People are weird sometimes.   I'm weird because I'm afraid it will sound different? the production on HF sounds different! For once can you stop being an argumentative troll?

[trenken]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 22 2012, 10:09 AM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 21 2012, 08:09 PM) I think the worst part of it for me is when they released Caravan and BU2B they sounded pretty good. The drums had real power to them, you can hear it in the kick drum, but then listen to them on the final album to compare them and the quality of the final mix has been ruined. It clearly doesnt sound as good when compared to the original releases and that extended into the recording of the rest of the songs. Yet in typical Trenken fashion, you acted like the condescending tool that you are when I mentioned I was worried about Caravan sounding different. Now here you are complaining about it, saying it is the worst part about the record. unbelievable.   Let's revist it shall we?   QUOTE (trenken @ Apr 25 2012, 09:56 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Apr 25 2012, 11:55 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Apr 25 2012, 09:51 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Apr 25 2012, 11:50 AM) I love Caravan too and am afraid the re-record will not be as good. Why are you afraid of that? Pretty sure they didnt rewrite the song, and I seriously doubt it will sound much different than the original version. because the original is perfect. You do understand they aren't rewriting the song, right? We're just about rerecording it here. It makes no difference since Im pretty sure it's the same 3 guys playing, and the same guys recording it.   People are weird sometimes.   I'm weird because I'm afraid it will sound different? the production on HF sounds different! For once can you stop being an argumentative troll? I was talking about the songs themselves at that time, not the recording quality. I didnt even think there was a chance they would even mess with that, but they did. Dont know why.   I thought you were talking about them changing the songs, adding/removing parts, lyrics, etc.., thats what I was saying I wouldnt worry about them changing, and they really didnt change that. They added some different sounds here and there, boosted some synths and whatnot, but the songs themselves stayed the same, how they sound is what's changed.   They sound weaker now. They dont punch as much when I blast them in my car as the original releases did and I never thought that would happen.

[canadianice]

I think most people on here have caught on to your act Slappy (Trollken) Edited June 22, 2012 by canadianice

[trenken]

QUOTE (canadianice @ Jun 22 2012, 10:23 AM)

I think most people on here have caught on to your act Slappy (Trollken)

http://phantomcomplex.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/w0109200908.png

[canadianice]

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 21 2012, 10:09 PM)

I think the worst part of it for me is when they released Caravan and BU2B they sounded pretty good.

caravan and bu2b never sounded good to me.

[vespa2112]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 20 2012, 12:26 PM)

QUOTE (Two0neOneTwo @ Jun 20 2012, 08:37 AM) I mean seriously, they obviously listened to this thing a million times before the release. Did NO ONE say, "Hey, thats kinda noisy isn't it?" No one?? right? I've asked myself this question 100 times. OMG OMG OMG... I thought I was the crazy one. Thank you all for dragging the words out of me that I could not form in my head after I listened to CA.

[vespa2112]

How I came to the same realization.

I was listening and really enjoying CA for the 20th time or so the other day. And and was trying to figure out what was wrong. I love the songs, all of them... but there was this "something" that I couldnt figure out. Was it just my favorite band getting older and not writing great songs like they used to and I am just subconsciously making myself like the songs? So I threw in Hemispheres for about 10 minutes and really listened to each instrument. Then I threw CA back in. And I literally said to myself, NO, this is Rush, these are my boys still being Rush. Clockwork Angels is most definitely Rush, no mistake. Its all there. But its that sound. What the hell is that sound?!?!?!

Usually, I can listen to any Rush song three times in a row; 1) listen to drums, 2)listen to bass, 3) listen to guitar. So I tried listening to the drums to learn the parts in my head, visualize Neil playing, etc...and found it just so hard. I couldn't separate it from the rest of the noise.

I agree with what other said, did someone not have the balls to say "Hey, this is noisy, can we get some clarity here?" I imagine, they have some pretty good equipment on hand when mixing and mastering. If Nick is such the super-fan, then WTF?

If someone gets a meet-n-greet chance this year, can they ask the guys, please? Seriously. I cannot remember the last one that sounded good, maybe Counterparts, i'd have to go back and listen.

My second all time favorite band, Shellac (Steve Albini guitar/engineer extraordinaire) SWEARS off digital. They only record analog. And their music, a LOUD three piece band, sounds insanely incredible on CD/LP. Bands all over the world are knocking down this guys door to have him record their music. Look him up, he has recorded everyone from Jimmy Page to The Pixies to Nirvana and a million independent bands between. Have him record the next Rush record and it would sound, sonically, like it was the 70's again. And if you think thats a bad thing, then you have not listened to enough music.

[trenken]

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Jun 22 2012, 10:39 AM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 21 2012, 10:09 PM) I think the worst part of it for me is when they released Caravan and BU2B they sounded pretty good. caravan and bu2b never sounded good to me. The quality of them never sounded good, or the songs themselves? 2 different things really.   Im just commenting on the sound. They did sound better before when you compare them, especially when you blast them. The original versions had a cleaner sound, more punch to them. Just listen to the bass drum in the originals which was powerful, then its weak as hell in the new versions, and all throughout the rest of the songs.   They definitely changed something during the recording of the other songs, realized the other 2 dont match anymore and tweaked them to fit the rest.

[vespa2112]

Interesting!!!

The Loudness War

"When there is no quiet, there can be no loud".... excellent quote.

Edited June 22, 2012 by vespa2112

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 22 2012, 09:54 AM)

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Jun 22 2012, 10:39 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 21 2012, 10:09 PM) I think the worst part of it for me is when they released Caravan and BU2B they sounded pretty good. caravan and bu2b never sounded good to me. The quality of them never sounded good, or the songs themselves? 2 different things really.   Im just commenting on the sound. They did sound better before when you compare them, especially when you blast them. The original versions had a cleaner sound, more punch to them. Just listen to the bass drum in the originals which was powerful, then its weak as hell in the new versions, and all throughout the rest of the songs.   They definitely changed something during the recording of the other songs, realized the other 2 dont match anymore and tweaked them to fit the rest. Trenken, for the first time I think we actually agree on something. It's a Christmas miracle!