Great Songs...but..

[GernTheFish]

[drbirdsong]

QUOTE (yetanothersteve @ Jun 28 2012, 12:09 AM)

Basically, the lads need to sit down with a few beers and listen to a vinyl pressing of Who's Next before mixing their next album.

This

 

 

Everyone is making good points.

 

I just got a new turn table last week and listened to my vinyl of Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue on it. It sounds like you are in the room with the musicians. I have ordered Clockwork Angels on vinyl so I can "get back" to the vinyl experience. Rush making studio statements, not recording live in a room, but I would really love some space in all their recordings back to the 1980s.

 

Clockwork Angels sounds great, but I guess we can fantasize about perfect recordings.

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (drbirdsong @ Jun 28 2012, 08:50 AM)

QUOTE (yetanothersteve @ Jun 28 2012, 12:09 AM) Basically, the lads need to sit down with a few beers and listen to a vinyl pressing of Who's Next before mixing their next album. This     Everyone is making good points.   I just got a new turn table last week and listened to my vinyl of Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue on it. It sounds like you are in the room with the musicians. I have ordered Clockwork Angels on vinyl so I can "get back" to the vinyl experience. Rush making studio statements, not recording live in a room, but I would really love some space in all their recordings back to the 1980s.   Clockwork Angels sounds great, but I guess we can fantasize about perfect recordings. drbirdsong,   Doesn't have to be perfect. Perfection IS in the eye of the beholder.   Proper levels, a good soundstage, those are things that either are, or are not, regardless of the persons preferences.   Couple of points for everyone;   Every single Rush album prior to CP each had unique musical material and different direction. Hense, Rush WAS progressive. Fly By Night Sounds nothing like Moving Pictures. Moving Pictures sounds nothing like Signals. Etc....Right on through to Presto,RTB....   The big BUT here is that even though they all sounded different, they all had one thing in common. They are all extremely easy to listen to. Even at reference volumes. Regardless of musical taste, the recordings sound wonderful.   Alex, Ged and Neil all had their sonic space in the mix. They hardly ever stepped on each other or had competing parts. As complex as the music was you could easily follow along with any of them.   CP (to a smaller degree) VT, SnA, CA? They lost that quality. To moi, its really is just a wall of sound now. The pleasure of listening to just Neil during a song has become very difficult. His Kit (as great as it is) gets lost in a sea of competing noise. There is no "space" for the intricate, sometimes subtle way he plays anymore. The same applies for Ged and Alex as well.   Its not about perfection or type of musical direction. They simply got caught up in the one dimensional, compressed wall of sound 99% of new music seems to posses now.   I'm not 'mad" just sad because I firmly believe the recording/mix/mastering was a HUGE reason all those different types of music and direction were successful.

[MarKo]

QUOTE (Two0neOneTwo @ Jun 28 2012, 02:32 PM)

QUOTE (drbirdsong @ Jun 28 2012, 08:50 AM) QUOTE (yetanothersteve @ Jun 28 2012, 12:09 AM) Basically, the lads need to sit down with a few beers and listen to a vinyl pressing of Who's Next before mixing their next album. This     Everyone is making good points.   I just got a new turn table last week and listened to my vinyl of Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue on it. It sounds like you are in the room with the musicians. I have ordered Clockwork Angels on vinyl so I can "get back" to the vinyl experience. Rush making studio statements, not recording live in a room, but I would really love some space in all their recordings back to the 1980s.   Clockwork Angels sounds great, but I guess we can fantasize about perfect recordings. drbirdsong,   Doesn't have to be perfect. Perfection IS in the eye of the beholder.   Proper levels, a good soundstage, those are things that either are, or are not, regardless of the persons preferences.   Couple of points for everyone;   Every single Rush album prior to CP each had unique musical material and different direction. Hense, Rush WAS progressive. Fly By Night Sounds nothing like Moving Pictures. Moving Pictures sounds nothing like Signals. Etc....Right on through to Presto,RTB....   The big BUT here is that even though they all sounded different, they all had one thing in common. They are all extremely easy to listen to. Even at reference volumes. Regardless of musical taste, the recordings sound wonderful.   Alex, Ged and Neil all had their sonic space in the mix. They hardly ever stepped on each other or had competing parts. As complex as the music was you could easily follow along with any of them.   CP (to a smaller degree) VT, SnA, CA? They lost that quality. To moi, its really is just a wall of sound now. The pleasure of listening to just Neil during a song has become very difficult. His Kit (as great as it is) gets lost in a sea of competing noise. There is no "space" for the intricate, sometimes subtle way he plays anymore. The same applies for Ged and Alex as well.   Its not about perfection or type of musical direction. They simply got caught up in the one dimensional, compressed wall of sound 99% of new music seems to posses now.   I'm not 'mad" just sad because I firmly believe the recording/mix/mastering was a HUGE reason all those different types of music and direction were successful. I agree with your points. It's becoming un-listenable for me at this stage too.   I was beginning to think I was going crazy too.   I'v discussed all those parts mentioned above on other threads as they sound poor to me as well.   It's such a pity cause it's a great album.   Looking at those DR figures it's no wonder why I prefer Presto, Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures and Signals as you can actually hear what's going on without having to get a headache.   Maybe it's a mixture of reasons that these recordings sound like this these days.   Digtital Recording is producing audio that most middle of the road audio systems just can't handle. I'm resorted to playing a bassless EQ'd version via Bluetooth in my car because I'm fed up with my speakers sounding like they're about to pop out through the doors.   It probably sounds great on a top dollar system in a studio when the boys are finalising the mix but on most "normal" systems, it's just too much.   Then you have the influence of Apple and record companies in the "loudness" wars.   I remember reading an interview with Geddy around the release of VP and he was sick that he might have made a mistake at the mastering stage. (which was true) Maybe they've backed off getting really deeply involved with the mastering since then and they're letting the so called "professionals" do their stuff.   I'd definitely like to get behind a "pre" master version for fans.   Maybe that's the next step in "marketing" the album.   Anyone know if the HD Tracks version is any better?   Is there a downloadable lossless version of the Vinly mix available to check out before I invest in a turntable and the vinly version.   I'd do it just to hear this album properly !!!   If anyone does get a way to contact anyone near to the band register the feelings of a growing, loyal and genuinely sincere group of fans.........please let me know......I'd gladly add my name to whatever petition needs to be started....

[jc4gd]

Question for you audio mix/mastering gurus/geeks.

 

Could it be the audio equipment Rush heard the final mix/master on didn't show these problems because unlike our/my "average joe" equipment.........it just sounded fine on whatever they used to listen to it on?

 

Was their 'High-Fidelity' equipment the undoing?

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

HD is not better but the vinyl is supposed to be, according to the Dynamic Range Database.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

QUOTE (jc4gd @ Jul 3 2012, 04:10 PM)

Question for you audio mix/mastering gurus/geeks. Could it be the audio equipment Rush heard the final mix/master on didn't show these problems because unlike our/my "average joe" equipment.........it just sounded fine on whatever they used to listen to it on? Was their 'High-Fidelity' equipment the undoing?

When they mixed it they heard it in the studio where the mix was done. My experience is that things rarely sound the same outside the studio. A studio environment is an optimized space for the most part and not always a realistic representation of a consumer listening environment. Generally this is to create a mix that translates well to other systems. This doesn't always work out. I just read that Hey Jude was recorded at Trident Studios instead of Abbey Road but the monitoring environment at Trident at the time was "hyped" so when they got back to Abbey Road for mixing the recording sounded awful (this was before you could play back a tape in your car even). The engineers had to compensate for the lack of high end by EQing heavily which is why Hey Jude sounds the way it does.

 

As for mastering I doubt Rush were present but were sent samples. I remember reading that Geddy was listening on headphones for VT's mastering which really is no real way to tell. Honestly though their hearing is suspect after playing thousands of shows standing right in front of extremely loud amps (Alex especially) and now they have in ear monitors so God knows what that sounds like and at what volume. If they have little say in that part of the process then they probably just get a yea or nay (or we can live with that).

 

 

[jc4gd]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jul 3 2012, 04:24 PM)

QUOTE (jc4gd @ Jul 3 2012, 04:10 PM) Question for you audio mix/mastering gurus/geeks. Could it be the audio equipment Rush heard the final mix/master on didn't show these problems because unlike our/my "average joe" equipment.........it just sounded fine on whatever they used to listen to it on? Was their 'High-Fidelity' equipment the undoing?     Honestly though their hearing is suspect after playing thousands of shows standing right in front of extremely loud amps (Alex especially) and now they have in ear monitors so God knows what that sounds like and at what volume. Thanks.....   ...........wow, never considered that...............

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

When I first heard Alex's Victor album it sounded extremely thin. If one's high end loss is really bad then they will increase the high end EQ to compensate. Now from what I have learned about frequency and EQ is that audio is like a mobile, if you touch one area the entire thing is affected. So with EQ adjustments you aren't just adjusting the range you are manipulating but also the other frequencies you aren't. So if you are increasing the top end you are decreasing some low end as well.

[Gilbertk]

QUOTE (jc4gd @ Jul 3 2012, 06:10 PM)

Question for you audio mix/mastering gurus/geeks. Could it be the audio equipment Rush heard the final mix/master on didn't show these problems because unlike our/my "average joe" equipment.........it just sounded fine on whatever they used to listen to it on? Was their 'High-Fidelity' equipment the undoing?

If I remember right.. some band released different versions of an album for different players.

 

One copy was mixed/mastered for best sound with an ipod/headphones

One copy was done for a 5.1 set up.

One copy was done for car stereos.

 

I can't remember who it was though or if I just imagined that...

 

But for each, when they mixed and mastered, they used the listening equipment each would have so.. headphones, or 5.1 or whatever, so each person would get a copy that would sound best for them, or pretty damn close.

[DrKlahn]

I've been following this thread and decided to sign on and add my thoughts. First, I think the album is great. I've been a long time fan of the band. Most of their recent albums take a while to grow on me, but I loved this one from the first listen.

 

I've been a A/V nut since college. My current system is an Onkyo preamp with Rotel amplification playing through a set of B&W speakers. Like most of the posters on here I noticed immediately that this recording was "brick walled". As much as I loved the music I found myself straining to enjoy this mix (and getting a headache doing so). I put in the Time Machine Blu Ray after listening to this and was amazed how much more coherent and listenable it was in comparison.

 

So ever since I have been searching for digital copy of the vinyl mix for comparison. Keep in mind I'm not in the "vinyl is the best camp". A digital recording, even at CD sampling rates, can sound outstanding. Vinyl's advantage here is that it isn't capable of being "brick walled" in the same fashion as the CD is. So after much searching I was able to find a 24/96 lossless encode of the Vinyl (Disclaimer: I own the CD and do not encourage illegal downloading of material you do not own). I've only had time to listen to this on my lackluster computer speakers, but I have to say that this mix is MUCH better than the CD. I can easily discern Geddy's vocals. The instruments actually have some depth. I plan to listen this on my main system this evening and will post back with a more indepth analysis.

 

To those wondering about the hifi equipment in the recording studio influencing the mixing choices, that runs contrary to my observations. The preamp I use features automatic room correction to give the speakers the flattest response possible. My speakers aren't the most expensive ones out there, but they are hardly entry level and perform quite well. This album was the least listenable on my best equipment. The response and detail offered by this system spotlighted the muddiness of the CD mix. Partway through listening to the CD I actually played a track off another CD to make sure that something wasn't wrong. The best sounding setup for the CD mix was in the car. Simply because I usually leave one of the EQ settings enabled for the anemic radio stations in the area. Which is similar to what the other poster mentions when he cuts the bass and boosts the high end.

 

So for those of you wondering, yes the vinyl mix at first listen seems to be a huge improvement. Clockwork Angels is an outstanding album that has unfortunately become a victim of the loudness wars. I will mirror what another poster said. I would pay handsomely for this with a proper mix. Hopefully on Blu Ray (24/96 lossless) with a well done multichannel mix. That would be amazing.

 

 

UPDATE: Well the vinyl rip wasn't what I had hoped for after listening to it on my main system. It has it pros and cons vs. the CD.

 

Pros: The vocals are clearer overall. You can hear more subtlety in the instruments in quieter moments.

 

Cons: The soundstage on the vinyl mix isn't as spacious. The highs are muffled compared to the CD (though the CD lacks some here too). The tight low end punch of the drums is largely missing. I also noticed on Clockwork Angels some audio distortion in the vocals.

 

Conclusion: Sigh. Well unless there is a better vinyl mix out there, I don't know if there is a definitively version of this album. The vinyl is less fatiguing to listen to, but the CD's wider soundstage, slightly better high end and punch are hard to give up. This album is so frustrating. Such great music, such a disappointing mix.

 

Edited July 6, 2012 by DrKlahn

[MarKo]

QUOTE (DrKlahn @ Jul 5 2012, 05:43 PM)

Conclusion: Sigh. Well unless there is a better vinyl mix out there, I don't know if there is a definitively version of this album. The vinyl is less fatiguing to listen to, but the CD's wider soundstage, slightly better high end and punch are hard to give up. This album is so frustrating. Such great music, such a disappointing mix.

Thanks for that work....

 

It's really frustrating that these great songs can't breath with this mix or mastering issue or whatever it is.....

 

I guess it's a long wait until the next gig/live album or DVD to really hear what's going on inside these songs...

 

I can remember listening to Permanent Waves and Moving pictures for the first time on a Walkman.....it's was as much about the sound and the production as it was about the playing and the songs....

Presto was similar but maybe a little too thin....another notch on the bottom end would do no harm for sure....

 

I know this is naive but, hopefully some of this vibe is making it's way back to either Roadrunner or the Rush camp and it's not just getting brushed under the carpet.....

 

 

[DrKlahn]

Another update:

 

I was able to find another vinyl rip with 6 initials in the name (started with PB). This seems to be the best version I've found. It still lacks some of the low end punch (though it's much closer), but it matches the CD's soundstage and high end performance. As with the other vinyl rip, the vocals are more easily understood and the mix is much less fatiguing. The only thing that was objectionable was the same audio distortion on Clockwork Angels that was in the other vinyl rip. At this point I'm guessing this is just part of the master used.

 

So if you're still in the hunt for a good way to experience this album. I think this is the best one short of owning a good turntable setup. Just a note for anyone comparing, the vinyl mix is not as loud so be prepared to adjust 7-10dB when making your comparisons.

Edited July 10, 2012 by DrKlahn

[canadianice]

QUOTE (DrKlahn @ Jul 10 2012, 10:03 AM)

Another update: I was able to find another vinyl rip with 5 initials in the name (started with PB). This seems to be the best version I've found. It still lacks some of the low end punch (though it's much closer), but it matches the CD's soundstage and high end performance. As with the other vinyl rip, the vocals are more easily understood and the mix is much less fatiguing. The only thing that was objectionable was the same audio distortion on Clockwork Angels that was in the other vinyl rip. At this point I'm guessing this is just part of the master used. So if you're still in the hunt for a good way to experience this album. I think this is the best one short of owning a good turntable setup. Just a note for anyone comparing, the vinyl mix is not as loud so be prepared to adjust 7-10dB when making your comparisons.

Agreed, the same fellow has a vinyl rip of Vapor Trails as well. It is much quieter, and i consider it a nice upgrade to the cd.

[skullchrist]

You can see my take on it here:

 

http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?showtopic=75899

 

BTW, in my humble opinion there's no way a vinyl rip will ever compare to the real experience. Is is real or is it Memorex?!

 

Damn, I'm getting old, lol!

Edited July 12, 2012 by skullchrist