DrKlahn

QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 19 2012, 07:37 AM) QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Jul 12 2012, 09:57 PM) Has it ever occurred to anyone that it might not be the fault of the producer or engineer for whatever you feel is wrong with this record? Nothing is wrong with this record. The so-called audiophile experts on this site don't know the difference between analogy and digital. They think vinyl is mastered like a CD. Some people just need to feel important so they run their mouths and other who don't know any better buy into it. THIS. RECORD. ROCKS. Period. The music and artistry of the album is excellent. The mix on the CD is just plain bad. If you don't hear it, that's fine. A lot of us do. Label us what you will, it doesn't negate what we have an issue with. I don't see anyone that thinks this mix is bad is condemning the people that, for whatever reason, don't hear the problems we do. We are not bashing the band or their talents. Far from it. We hear the potential in this album. We just want it realized. That's something ANY fan should get behind. If this album does see a better mastered mix, no one is going to force someone happy with the current incarnation to rebuy it. I for one will make it a day one purchase. If you're at all curious to see what we're talking about. Read up on the Loudness Wars. This is a real problem affecting more than just Rush. Or better yet find a good vinyl copy of this album, level match it (the album needs a decent volume boost), and listen for yourself. The vinyl isn't perfect, but you may appreciate being able to actually understand more of the lyrics and hear more nuance in the instrumentation. Hopefully we'll see a better mastered version of CA at some point and everyone will be happy.

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 02:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? The overall volume isn't really the issue here. Snakes and Arrows may have a higher peaks, but offer more range. What is the issue is that all of the individual instruments and vocals are being pushed to be as loud as possible within each performance. Even within individual tracks, the drums for instance, sound is manipulated to the point of distortion. So sounds that should be subtle are amplified to the point of stepping on other pieces of the performance. The other posters comment on the toms toms reflects this as well. They don't sound like they should because they are being boosted in favor of loudness over fidelity. This link is a good one to illustrate this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war The waveforms at the right show the loss of dynamics as the sound is crushed to make it as loud as possible.

QUOTE (drgrendel @ Jul 13 2012, 01:11 PM) QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Jul 12 2012, 10:57 PM) Has it ever occurred to anyone that it might not be the fault of the producer or engineer for whatever you feel is wrong with this record? Could it be the band? Nah, no way. What could possibly be wrong with layering 30 guitar tracks per song, with bass, drums, synths, effects and vocals? That's gotta sound great, all those guitar tracks competing for space with all the other single tracked instruments...right? No, not right. The "producer" obviously has a major input on the direction, sound and structure of the songs, but he doesn't have the final say. Ultimately the band determines how much content each song gets, i.e; number of tracks. The "engineer" only records and (sometimes) mixes what the band plays. If Alex wants 30 guitar tracks, the engineer records them, period. They may not use all those tracks, but that's up to the producer, then the band. I guess what I'm saying is, this record is thick with tracks. There is a shit load of sound competing for space. When you have all those layers, things get noisy. I feel this record has so much guitar on it, it covers up everything. This is not necessarily the fault of the producer or engineer. If the band wants all those layers, they get it. I don't think it is the bands intention. The vinyl mix cleans up a lot of this. This is an engineering problem and it is effecting more than just Rush (just lookup the Loudness Wars). In another thread, someone posted a snippet of an interview with Geddy and I think Billy Corgan where Geddy comments on this very issue. So the band is aware of it, but is at the mercy of what the studio wants to release (they equate loud brick walled recordings with sales I guess).

The music in this album is fantastic. The mix is not. Those of us complaining about it are not attacking the band or their artistry. If you want a chance to hear the album in a better form go listen to the vinyl mix. It's not perfect either, but it's a definite improvement. The vocals are much easier to discern. The instruments aren't nearly as much of a muddy wall of sound. And this isn't because of any superiority of vinyl as a format, it's simply the mix (vinyl can't really be brick walled). A good CD mix would be exquisite. We should all be behind getting a good mix of this album. It will be an improvement for all of us. I think a lot of "the it sounds fine" crowd would be amazed at hearing a level matched comparison of the mixes. I can hear nuances and lyrics in the vinyl mix that are simply impossible to hear on the CD mix. Maybe we'll get a good high resolution 2ch/multi-channel mix on a Blu Ray at some point. I'd pay handsomely for that. If not at least a concert tour Blu Ray should be a good alternative.

Another update: I was able to find another vinyl rip with 6 initials in the name (started with PB). This seems to be the best version I've found. It still lacks some of the low end punch (though it's much closer), but it matches the CD's soundstage and high end performance. As with the other vinyl rip, the vocals are more easily understood and the mix is much less fatiguing. The only thing that was objectionable was the same audio distortion on Clockwork Angels that was in the other vinyl rip. At this point I'm guessing this is just part of the master used. So if you're still in the hunt for a good way to experience this album. I think this is the best one short of owning a good turntable setup. Just a note for anyone comparing, the vinyl mix is not as loud so be prepared to adjust 7-10dB when making your comparisons.

I've been following this thread and decided to sign on and add my thoughts. First, I think the album is great. I've been a long time fan of the band. Most of their recent albums take a while to grow on me, but I loved this one from the first listen. I've been a A/V nut since college. My current system is an Onkyo preamp with Rotel amplification playing through a set of B&W speakers. Like most of the posters on here I noticed immediately that this recording was "brick walled". As much as I loved the music I found myself straining to enjoy this mix (and getting a headache doing so). I put in the Time Machine Blu Ray after listening to this and was amazed how much more coherent and listenable it was in comparison. So ever since I have been searching for digital copy of the vinyl mix for comparison. Keep in mind I'm not in the "vinyl is the best camp". A digital recording, even at CD sampling rates, can sound outstanding. Vinyl's advantage here is that it isn't capable of being "brick walled" in the same fashion as the CD is. So after much searching I was able to find a 24/96 lossless encode of the Vinyl (Disclaimer: I own the CD and do not encourage illegal downloading of material you do not own). I've only had time to listen to this on my lackluster computer speakers, but I have to say that this mix is MUCH better than the CD. I can easily discern Geddy's vocals. The instruments actually have some depth. I plan to listen this on my main system this evening and will post back with a more indepth analysis. To those wondering about the hifi equipment in the recording studio influencing the mixing choices, that runs contrary to my observations. The preamp I use features automatic room correction to give the speakers the flattest response possible. My speakers aren't the most expensive ones out there, but they are hardly entry level and perform quite well. This album was the least listenable on my best equipment. The response and detail offered by this system spotlighted the muddiness of the CD mix. Partway through listening to the CD I actually played a track off another CD to make sure that something wasn't wrong. The best sounding setup for the CD mix was in the car. Simply because I usually leave one of the EQ settings enabled for the anemic radio stations in the area. Which is similar to what the other poster mentions when he cuts the bass and boosts the high end. So for those of you wondering, yes the vinyl mix at first listen seems to be a huge improvement. Clockwork Angels is an outstanding album that has unfortunately become a victim of the loudness wars. I will mirror what another poster said. I would pay handsomely for this with a proper mix. Hopefully on Blu Ray (24/96 lossless) with a well done multichannel mix. That would be amazing. UPDATE: Well the vinyl rip wasn't what I had hoped for after listening to it on my main system. It has it pros and cons vs. the CD. Pros: The vocals are clearer overall. You can hear more subtlety in the instruments in quieter moments. Cons: The soundstage on the vinyl mix isn't as spacious. The highs are muffled compared to the CD (though the CD lacks some here too). The tight low end punch of the drums is largely missing. I also noticed on Clockwork Angels some audio distortion in the vocals. Conclusion: Sigh. Well unless there is a better vinyl mix out there, I don't know if there is a definitively version of this album. The vinyl is less fatiguing to listen to, but the CD's wider soundstage, slightly better high end and punch are hard to give up. This album is so frustrating. Such great music, such a disappointing mix.