The Onset of Technology

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 11:44 AM)

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Jun 14 2012, 09:38 AM) QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 09:46 AM) QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 14 2012, 07:43 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 14 2012, 08:19 AM) Lol best album since the early 80s. Gotta love when people pass their opinion off as fact. And sound quality has ALWAYS been important. Problem is before VT, none of the albums had any particular sound problems, so there was nothing to discuss in that area. VT obviously was a disaster that could not be ignored, and this album has a bit of a cloudy or hazy sound to it, like it wasnt mastered well. The drums really lack punch, and the guitars dont sound very crisp to me. You cant blame that on technology or anything else other than it just wasnt mixed or mastered well. That's just reality. Seriously?! It was never an issue? Signals and ESL were so bad and muffled and dead-sounding I thought there was something wrong with my cassettes back in the 80s when I first bought them. And even though they don't bother me too much most people constantly rag on how bad Presto and RTB sound. The first Rush album sounds like it was recorded on some Fisher-Price console. Many people think GUP is horrible-sounding, too because it's so cold and brittle.     I grew up with 70s and 80s rock so the louder mastering style still bothers me too but this issue has nothing to do with anyone doing a "bad" job, most people simply think this is the way rock is supposed to sound. Every band forum I go to for older bands with older fans has the same ongoing problem. And everybody thinks their band just didn't do a good job.   I think what's happening is you've got a group of old fans for all these classic bands who quit listening to new rock at least 20 years ago except for the specific bands they follow and so they keep comparing their newer albums to the old albums instead of comparing them to what everyone else has sounded like for 20 freaking years now.   So when I go to the Van Halen forum I see:   ADKoT Production - Brickwalled Dynamics http://www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/adkot-prod...led-t54364.html     And if I go to Chickenfoot's forum I see:   Chickenfoot Albums and Brickwalled Production http://www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/showthread.php?p=1508400     And if I go to ZZ Top's forum I see:   Good songs but that is the most horrible brickwalling I have heard in ages.     And on and on and on for every old band. This has nothing to do with Rush or people screwing up, music has changed over 20 years and many fans just are either in denial or oblivious. Again, I'm not saying we should pretend to like it, I wish stuff still sounded like the 70s and 80s too but it's just a different world. I'm 44 and my youngest sister is only 27 and some of her friends that I know are even in their early 20s and they only listen to music through their ipods or phones or whatever or maybe computer speakers. None of them own stereos. The younger guys in her group think older music sounds wimpy. So that's all there is to it. It's changed and it's not going back. I'm just amazed that for every single release for every one of these older bands for 20 years there's been the same shock that "things don't sound like they used to". Bunch of shut-ins. I really dont think thats the case. I listen to alot of current rock. I personally think the first mix of Caravan was perfection. I think this album is a step backward in overall production.   Who mastered the single of Caravan and BU2B? Was it someone other than CA?   For me its not just the mastering, but the mix. Chycki mixed the original Carvan and BU2B. Sonically they sound really good to me. Nick remixed them, as well as all of CA. So I believe the issues I'm having are with the actual mixes, not neccessarily the mastering. Chycki also mixed S&A, which I have no problems with production wise.   anyway, I'm rockin CA on headphones at work right now and it sounds really good It does sound better in headphones doesn't it?

[snowdog2112]

Well, I didn't mean everything from the last 20 years sounds exactly the same, there are definitely relative differences between rock albums. But overall everything has gotten much more saturated and louder and more dense and that factor alone is a turnoff to many older fans even when one is done better than another. To me S&A sounds much, much better than VT (what doesn't?) for instance but that still doesn't mean that S&A sounds like something from the 70s. It's still incredibly "thick" relative to any older albums. That's all I meant. Edited June 14, 2012 by snowdog2112

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:50 PM)

Well, I didn't mean everything from the last 20 years sounds exactly the same, there are definitely relative differences between rock albums. But overall everything has gotten much more saturated and louder and more dense and that factor alone is a turnoff to many older fans even when one is done better than another. To me S&A sounds much, much better than VT (what doesn't?) for instance but that still doesn't mean that S&A sounds like something from the 70s. It's still incredibly "thick" relative to any older albums. That's all I meant.

Gotcha. It isn't all or nothing. Just because CwA doesn't sound sonically great doesn't mean it is as bad sounding as VT.

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 14 2012, 10:53 AM)

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:50 PM) Well, I didn't mean everything from the last 20 years sounds exactly the same, there are definitely relative differences between rock albums. But overall everything has gotten much more saturated and louder and more dense and that factor alone is a turnoff to many older fans even when one is done better than another. To me S&A sounds much, much better than VT (what doesn't?) for instance but that still doesn't mean that S&A sounds like something from the 70s. It's still incredibly "thick" relative to any older albums. That's all I meant. Gotcha. It isn't all or nothing. Just because CwA doesn't sound sonically great doesn't mean it is as bad sounding as VT. Exactly. I'm still waiting on my fan pack so I don't even have the CD yet to test on my stereo but from what I can tell it sounds like it's between VT and S&A in terms of clarity. The HD stereo version is available now and I'm going to get it soon. I haven't seen anybody else comment on it and I'm curious if it helps any.

[D3strukt]

How can anyone like the mix on 2112, and COS at all? Both are extremely thin sounding, especially in the drums. They lack punch. All of the 70's albums do, barring PeW.

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:59 PM)

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 14 2012, 10:53 AM) QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:50 PM) Well, I didn't mean everything from the last 20 years sounds exactly the same, there are definitely relative differences between rock albums. But overall everything has gotten much more saturated and louder and more dense and that factor alone is a turnoff to many older fans even when one is done better than another. To me S&A sounds much, much better than VT (what doesn't?) for instance but that still doesn't mean that S&A sounds like something from the 70s. It's still incredibly "thick" relative to any older albums. That's all I meant. Gotcha. It isn't all or nothing. Just because CwA doesn't sound sonically great doesn't mean it is as bad sounding as VT. Exactly. I'm still waiting on my fan pack so I don't even have the CD yet to test on my stereo but from what I can tell it sounds like it's between VT and S&A in terms of clarity. The HD stereo version is available now and I'm going to get it soon. I haven't seen anybody else comment on it and I'm curious if it helps any. I'd hold out on the high-res version. Same dynamic compression as the redbook version. Vinyl seems to have the least amount of compression.

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 10:59 AM)

How can anyone like the mix on 2112, and COS at all? Both are extremely thin sounding, especially in the drums. They lack punch. All of the 70's albums do, barring PeW.

I'm sorry, you can't possibly feel that way. Trenken has already told us that there were no sound issues before VT. Between your list and my list that pretty much covers everything.

 

 

 

Just kidding, Trenken.

 

 

 

[D3strukt]

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:03 PM)

QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 10:59 AM) How can anyone like the mix on 2112, and COS at all? Both are extremely thin sounding, especially in the drums. They lack punch. All of the 70's albums do, barring PeW. I'm sorry, you can't possibly feel that way. Trenken has already told us that there were no sound issues before VT. Between your list and my list that pretty much covers everything.       Just kidding, Trenken. I do feel this way. I listen to these records via a 3k 7.1 Bose sound system, records, not CD's. There's no punch. The bass is just an undefined rumble, not a KICK, especially in the drums once again.   I LOVE them, I do love the sound of them. But they do leave a bit to be desired, sometimes. They sound much more powerful live.   Hemispheres is probably the best sounding record out of all of them.   Do you get what i'm trying to explain, in my messy way of explaining myself?

[Gompers]

[snowdog2112]

QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 11:08 AM)

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:03 PM) QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 10:59 AM) How can anyone like the mix on 2112, and COS at all? Both are extremely thin sounding, especially in the drums. They lack punch. All of the 70's albums do, barring PeW. I'm sorry, you can't possibly feel that way. Trenken has already told us that there were no sound issues before VT. Between your list and my list that pretty much covers everything.       Just kidding, Trenken. I do feel this way. I listen to these records via a 3k 7.1 Bose sound system, records, not CD's. There's no punch. The bass is just an undefined rumble, not a KICK, especially in the drums once again.   I LOVE them, I do love the sound of them. But they do leave a bit to be desired, sometimes. They sound much more powerful live.   Hemispheres is probably the best sounding record out of all of them.   Do you get what i'm trying to explain, in my messy way of explaining myself? Sure, I was just kidding!   Those don't bother me as much but my point was simply that everybody hears things differently so I was rejecting Trenken's (and others') notion that "all used to be fine". I've heard tons of criticism of the sound of all their albums at some point. One of my good friends who was into Rush even before I was always tells me how "sterile" Moving Pictures sounds. Throughout the 80s with my giant collection of cassettes and CDs Signals and ESL were by far the worst sounding of them all. They literally sounded defective they were so flat and dull and they're only marginally better now. I know people who hate HYF's production and GUP's production and we all know Presto's and RTB's sound gets crapped on by many people. The album is only going to sound one way and there are an infinite amount of ways listeners want to hear things. No one producer is going to "fix" that.

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 01:08 PM)

QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:03 PM) QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 10:59 AM) How can anyone like the mix on 2112, and COS at all? Both are extremely thin sounding, especially in the drums. They lack punch. All of the 70's albums do, barring PeW. I'm sorry, you can't possibly feel that way. Trenken has already told us that there were no sound issues before VT. Between your list and my list that pretty much covers everything.       Just kidding, Trenken. I do feel this way. I listen to these records via a 3k 7.1 Bose sound system, records, not CD's. There's no punch. The bass is just an undefined rumble, not a KICK, especially in the drums once again.   I LOVE them, I do love the sound of them. But they do leave a bit to be desired, sometimes. They sound much more powerful live.   Hemispheres is probably the best sounding record out of all of them.   Do you get what i'm trying to explain, in my messy way of explaining myself? Sorry, but IMO that is part of your problem then.   I do think 2112 sounds better than CoS, but that it doesn't sound as good as AFTK or Hemi.

Edited June 14, 2012 by marblesmike

[ILSnwdog]

QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 12:08 PM)

I do feel this way. I listen to these records via a 3k 7.1 Bose sound system, records, not CD's. There's no punch. The bass is just an undefined rumble, not a KICK, especially in the drums once again.

I am listening on a fairly nice system too, and the bass rumbles so much in The Anarchist, you can't hear much else, let alone Geddy's bass line.

 

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (ILSnwdog @ Jun 14 2012, 10:45 AM)

QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 12:08 PM) I do feel this way. I listen to these records via a 3k 7.1 Bose sound system, records, not CD's. There's no punch. The bass is just an undefined rumble, not a KICK, especially in the drums once again. I am listening on a fairly nice system too, and the bass rumbles so much in The Anarchist, you can't hear much else, let alone Geddy's bass line. I think its the Taurus pedals. You cant really hear the tone, it's just a bunch of added bottom end.   damn, I said I'd shut the f**k up

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:49 PM)

QUOTE (ILSnwdog @ Jun 14 2012, 10:45 AM) QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 12:08 PM) I do feel this way. I listen to these records via a 3k 7.1 Bose sound system, records, not CD's. There's no punch. The bass is just an undefined rumble, not a KICK, especially in the drums once again. I am listening on a fairly nice system too, and the bass rumbles so much in The Anarchist, you can't hear much else, let alone Geddy's bass line. I think its the Taurus pedals. You cant really hear the tone, it's just a bunch of added bottom end.   damn, I said I'd shut the f**k up Nope, You're right The Anarchist is the song where this is most common.

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Jun 14 2012, 01:52 PM)

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 14 2012, 12:49 PM) QUOTE (ILSnwdog @ Jun 14 2012, 10:45 AM) QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jun 14 2012, 12:08 PM) I do feel this way. I listen to these records via a 3k 7.1 Bose sound system, records, not CD's. There's no punch. The bass is just an undefined rumble, not a KICK, especially in the drums once again. I am listening on a fairly nice system too, and the bass rumbles so much in The Anarchist, you can't hear much else, let alone Geddy's bass line. I think its the Taurus pedals. You cant really hear the tone, it's just a bunch of added bottom end.   damn, I said I'd shut the f**k up Nope, You're right The Anarchist is the song where this is most common.   True, but even low-frequency Taurus Pedals can sound clear without over saturating the sound field.   Check out the last verse of Genesis's Back in NYC (and NOT on the recent remix either). That's the first one that comes to mind.