Can someone explain the VT hate to me?

[CrossedSignals]

It must keep happening 'cause newbies like me keep showing up

 

Expect another couple thousand re-takes in the future...

[drbirdsong]

I have the Hildie Reworked version. I found it on Demonoid. I was never too hard on the album and always loved it, but this fan remastered version adds some space into the mix and it is a joy to listen to. If a fan can do that then certainly a pro can do better (maybe). Here are the notes from it:

 

Rush - Vapor Trails - 2002 - Reworked Version [HILDIE] Nov 2011

 

Those of you who are familiar with this Rush CD released in 2002 know that it was mastered using the "brickwalled" technique. This method tends to produce an apparent loudness increase while sacrificing dynamic range. The end result is clipping in many portions on the original pressed CD's. Some people may prefer the hot levels and I am in no way criticizing that. This is merely an alternative for those who prefer dynamic range.

 

There has been a lot of talk of how to restore audio dynamics without losing any music. Many methods have been explored. What I have done here is use the "MITA (Music In The Abstract)" method developed by MITA and Xanadar Nuitari several years ago to release the recording from "brickwall jail" which works great in removing the clipped artifacts while retaining the overall music. I then spent several months this past summer and early fall reworking, remixing each track using 60 points of reference per channel. While doing so I listened to the reworked recordings on JBL L100T floor speakers to achieve this final result. I made closely to 12 different mixes until coming up with what I thought was a good overall sound which I feel brings out all of the instruments more clearly, and restoring dynamic range. But you be the judge!

 

The band is currently working on an official remix of Vapor Trails. This is a important recording as it is Rush's first CD returing from a fairly long break in 2002, and I believe it to be one of their best.

 

This was made from an original 1st pressing US CD that had been converted to FLAC. I then converted to WAV files using Traders Little Helper. I used Cool edit and Wavelab. Reworked at 32bit resolution then dithered to 16bit. Many thanks to MITA's hard work in coming up with a way to get rid of the brickwalling effect which has made this project possible. Enjoy!

[TheAccountant]

QUOTE (metaldad @ Apr 7 2012, 04:31 PM)

The people that hate VT are the same ones that think S&A was great/good/decent/listenable/worth the $10 they paid for it .

Good point. I certainly fall into this group. Hate VT, like S &A a lot.

 

As I have said elsewhere, I keep trying but it just does not click with me. Perhaps in another 5 - 10 years.

[CrossedSignals]

I like VT and S&A.

 

 

VT is the more cohesive/memorable album, but there are a lot of exhilarating moments on S&A... and the sound quality is great.

[TheAccountant]

QUOTE (Pound of Obscure @ Apr 7 2012, 01:32 PM)

QUOTE (Gilbertk @ Apr 7 2012, 09:31 AM) Seriously, can someone explain the problem? Its a not very good album, destroyed by noise.   I've always tried not to be too hard on it because the sound quality makes it unlistenable, and a few of the songs had potential I think. Plus it is a very important album. (It wasn't over).   Its just not very good and the parts that are, hurt my ears.   I have explained my dislike for the album at length elsewhere so I wont try to go into such length again here.   I will just say (1) good post & (2) it sort of summarizes my feelings.   The album is infested with a thick heavy dense smog of noise that ruins the potential of the songs. By the way, I like a lot of 80's metal and 2112 is my favorite Rush album (2112 is my favorite song from Rush) so its not like I dislike hard rock / metal.   Just don't like the sound of the album. At all.   Ghost Rider is a good song. Peaceable Kingdom could be good. Some of the other lyrics have potential.   Its just the sound.   By the way, when I say sound, I don't just mean the production. I am also referring to the actual construction of the musical portion of the songs (as opposed to the lyrical portion).   Hope that answers the question.

[GeminiRising79]

QUOTE (canadianice @ Apr 7 2012, 11:57 AM)

Let's not forget, they were almost done, during this period of time, due to Neil's tragedies, in his personal life!. The album was a triumphant return in my eyes. One HUGE Victory

They were never done, you drama queens.. It was only a hiatus- Not once did I believe any different.

[GeddysMullet]

QUOTE (GeminiRising79 @ Apr 7 2012, 10:46 PM)

QUOTE (canadianice @ Apr 7 2012, 11:57 AM) Let's not forget, they were almost done, during this period of time, due to Neil's tragedies, in his personal life!. The album was a triumphant return in my eyes. One HUGE Victory          They were never done, you drama queens.. It was only a hiatus- Not once did I believe any different. Well, aren't you spe                                                                           cious!

[Ardent15]

The production is bad, but I agree that it's an underrated album.

[Gompers]

It's not hate. It just is tough to sit through start to finish. Some songs lack decent melody. It is over layered like a Devin Townsend release and the production isn't great. Biggest issue...no Alex leads.

[Gompers]

QUOTE (Dylan2712 @ Apr 7 2012, 01:51 PM)

One Little Victory in one of my top favourite Rush tunes.

I really do like this tune.

[WCFIELDS]

It's an ok album....it's the best thing they've done since HYF......

[1 of the 7]

For me, it's the droning sound to the music, and not caring for Geddy's vocal style here as much as on other albums. The "yodeling" that people complain about on S & A is out in fuller force here, IMO.

 

It's still Rush and Geddy's voice and I will always love both, but not as much as on other albums.

[Rod in Toronto]

I clicked on Peaceable Kingdom accidentaly on youtube the other day, and discovered I like it a lot! When it first came out I though this was one of the worst songs on VT, but now it turned into one of my faves. It goes to show that it pays off to give some albums a second chance years later. Unfortunately I can't say the same about, say, Van Halen III - I've given it several spins a bunch of times and until today I can't figure out what was going through Eddie's mind...

[Gedneil Alpeart]

Album has some killer tracks....but just too loud, hot, and exhausting to listen to front to back. Just too noisy, period.

[brunosamppa]

Hi, friends. I am the brazilian guy who "restored" the VT some years ago. Actually i have worked on the version 3.0. The dynamic range and the high frequences are improved. The result is an album more confortable to my ears (my personal taste). I don't know the rules of this forum, but I can post the link here to download?

 

I posted some songs from this actual version on Youtube, but copyright blocked the content in all USA.

 

Sorry my poor English.

[savagegrace26]

QUOTE (RodrigoAltaf @ Apr 12 2012, 11:01 AM)

I clicked on Peaceable Kingdom accidentaly on youtube the other day, and discovered I like it a lot! When it first came out I though this was one of the worst songs on VT, but now it turned into one of my faves. It goes to show that it pays off to give some albums a second chance years later. Unfortunately I can't say the same about, say, Van Halen III - I've given it several spins a bunch of times and until today I can't figure out what was going through Eddie's mind...

Hmmmm. I've always thought VH3 was extremely underrated. Get past Cherone's grating vocals and there is some outstanding musicianship on this record. Eddie was being very experimental and trying to reinvent the band with this. Some of it really works if you give it a chance. It's certainly a more interesting album to me than the new rehash/noncreative/repeating formula album that just came out.

[Rod in Toronto]

[Gilbertk]

QUOTE (Dylan2712 @ Apr 7 2012, 01:41 PM)

QUOTE QUOTE (Dylan2712 @ Apr 7 2012, 11:51 AM) and to whomever posted about people being "audio snobs", i can assure you that trained ears can hear compression, EQ, reverb etc... Yes, and those people tend to be audio snobs because they are the only people who actually care about such minor details in music. The vast, vast majority of listeners aren't doing it on high-end equipment, they aren't trained (your word, not mine) to hear the things you're talking about - compression, EQ, reverb (although reverb is way more obvious, usually, than other fine details).   In defense of using the word snob, many audiophiles I know embrace the word and wear it with pride (much like I call myself a geek, proudly). And there's nothing wrong with that.   And if there is an aspect of insult to it, it's only because of the people who trash VT and those of us that like it, 90% of them are bashing us because we can't hear the imperfections that they do. "You've got to be some sort of idiot to like VT, the clipping gives me a headache and makes me want to stab a baby" is a pretty common sentiment. "Snob" is me being gentle when describing that type of person.     strange enough, i agree with you. as with anything, there are people who know what they're taking about and then there's people that talk out of their ass.   even though im only an audio engineering student, part of our course was to do these exercises which trains us to hear things like compression, EQ, reverb, 1ms-50ms Delay; all of these and more in either one or both channels.   even with my limited "ear training" (legit, what the school calls it), i can hear the over-compressed sound on Vapor Trails as well as other music. with Vapor Trails or Metallica's "Death Magnetic", its much more obvious than say on "The Camera Eye". my guess is people who heard VT and could hear something "wrong" with the mix didn't fully understand it until they were able to put a name to it.   but, using the term "snob" to describe people who respond to the sound of VT as you have quoted, is a fair assessment. but keep in mind, there are people who can hear these things and know what it is. some of us aren't assholes. I am the 99%

[Rush Cocky]

QUOTE (TheAccountant @ Apr 7 2012, 08:24 PM)

QUOTE (metaldad @ Apr 7 2012, 04:31 PM) The people that hate VT are the same ones that think S&A was great/good/decent/listenable/worth the $10 they paid for it . Good point. I certainly fall into this group. Hate VT, like S &A a lot.   As I have said elsewhere, I keep trying but it just does not click with me. Perhaps in another 5 - 10 years. On my last rankings of the 18 Rush studio albums, I had Snakes & Arrows at #10.   VT was #13. FWIW, TFE was #9.   Most Rush is better than 95% of rock music that's out there.   The last album Rush did that made my top 5 was Counterparts (at #5).   I am certainly hoping that CA will have great shelf value that will remain in the upper half of Rush albums permanently. It looks like it could be, and the album has great potential based on what I've heard so far.

[RUSHandOSU]

VT is a fantastic album...just a little loud and distorted on car speakers haha i had to buy new ones recently while jammin to this album.

[GeddysMullet]

QUOTE (metaldad @ Apr 7 2012, 05:31 PM)

The people that hate VT are the same ones that think S&A was great/good/decent/listenable/worth the $10 they paid for it .

Not true! I love both records.

[Priest of Syrinx]

QUOTE (Gilbertk @ Apr 7 2012, 09:31 AM)

I've heard the whole album many times, on CD, MP3, and also the fan remaster on FLAC, and I don't really hear a difference. Nothing really stands out as different. Now I can hear the difference between say.. 128 and 320kbit/s or whatever quality difference there is, so it's not like I'm deaf to audio quality. But what is so bad about Vapor Trails that everyone loves to tear it up??? The songwriting isn't AMAZING, but it's not bad.. I don't listen to the album much but when I do I listen straight through and never have any complaints. We all know what happened before that album, so when they recorded the album, they we starting with a few years of new experiences, new musical inspirations, and new surroundings.. So maybe it wasn't what everyone wanted, but so what? They're the ones in the band and we all love them for doing what they want and not caring what people think... so please people stop criticizing them for not doing what YOU want. But my question is... people LOVE to bitch about the mixing and compression on Vapor Trails and act like it makes the album impossible to listen to and it needs to be completely remixed and mastered. I mean.. what is so bad about it? Is it really a problem or do people just need something to bitch about?? I have yet to yank my headphones out of my ears or kick over my speakers because the mixing was so offensive to hear. Seriously, can someone explain the problem?

1. I'm sorry, but if you can't hear the difference between the original VT release and a good fan remaster, then you are nearly "deaf to audio quality", or you are listening on some pretty shoddy equipment. Both my home audio setups are modest: my PC has a Xonar sound card and Klipsch 2.0 speakers, and my living room has some Kenwood head and 25 year old Advent Prodigy II speakers - not exactly high-end stuff.

 

2. A performer's ultimate goal is to please their audience. That's why they are "performers". We are not here to please Rush, they are here to please us. If Rush wants to release an album of Neil Diamond covers, that's fine... and if many traditional Rush fans don't buy it, that's fine, too. Everyone has every right in the world to criticize any performer who does not please them when delivering the "Art", whether it's music, paintings, books, etc.

 

3. The audio quality on VT is bad enough that Rush is having it remastered. I wonder if those of us who grew up on music that was not squashed like the typical CD master are more sensitive?

Edited April 15, 2012 by Priest of Syrinx

[LyndseyG]

I love VT. I'm partially deaf in both ears so I can't hear the distortion/clipping as others have mentioned. When a VT track comes up on shuffle it does sound a little louder that the previous track, but that's no biggie. I either leave it or I turn it down a notch. No problem.

[CrossedSignals]

QUOTE (Priest of Syrinx @ Apr 15 2012, 12:41 PM)

I wonder if those of us who grew up on music that was not squashed like the typical CD master are more sensitive?

I think this is probably true. Most contemporary pop music uses audio maximizers to extremes... especially electronic dance and hip hop. It usually works with those genres because the instrumentation is more sparse and pointillistic, but with hard rock... not so much.

 

While I'm not deterred from listening to the original version of VT, the official remix can't come soon enough..

[Priest of Syrinx]

QUOTE (CrossedSignals @ Apr 15 2012, 05:06 PM)

QUOTE (Priest of Syrinx @ Apr 15 2012, 12:41 PM) I wonder if those of us who grew up on music that was not squashed like the typical CD master are more sensitive? I think this is probably true. Most contemporary pop music uses audio maximizers to extremes... especially electronic dance and hip hop. It usually works with those genres because the instrumentation is more sparse and pointillistic, but with hard rock... not so much.   While I'm not deterred from listening to the original version of VT, the official remix can't come soon enough.. A few years ago, I read that CD's are mastered with the idea that most listening will be done while in the car, hence there is less dynamic range and concern for clipping - people simply don't notice it due to road & wind noise while driving. And, of course, music is so mobile these days that it is often played in areas of significant environmental noise, not like years ago (get off my lawn!!!) when we'd sit down to listen to music and do nothing else, except perhaps drink or read.