HowItIs Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 14 2011, 01:41 PM) Yeah, we have all seen how blind faith, religious fanaticism and extremism are dangerous. Thanks guys for setting me straight. Thank YOU for having an open mind and a willingness to discuss rather than argue. BTW, I think Totem is about being free to choose one's faith (or non-faith). I'm an Eclectic person when it comes to that and this song really made me smile the first time I heard it. Because I have all of that dancing around my Totem Pole! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clem Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Cool! A Rush thread on religion that's gone on for two pages and no one is screaming insults at one and other! Great job! Let's keep it up folks! BTW - I remember an interview years ago where he talked about "Totem", he said that all religions have something "good" in them, and to some extent, that's what he was writing about. Example - who wouldn't want 12 disciples and/or a Buddha smile? Keep the Faith Clem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Ways Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 QUOTE (clem @ Aug 14 2011, 08:45 PM) Cool! A Rush thread on religion that's gone on for two pages and no one is screaming insults at one and other! Great job! Let's keep it up folks! BTW - I remember an interview years ago where he talked about "Totem", he said that all religions have something "good" in them, and to some extent, that's what he was writing about. Example - who wouldn't want 12 disciples and/or a Buddha smile? Keep the Faith Clem I don't seeing it as even being about religion. Philosophy, world view, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go2wrk@95974 Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 (edited) Very interesting discussion. I agree with the poster that said there is a big difference between organized religion and a personal relationship with God. I'd like to tell you a story about my experience in finding God, If I can. A buddy of mine, back in Huntington Beach, calf.,my hometown, had 2 older brother's that did 3 tours ,between then, in Vietnam. One of them, came back from the jungle in 69..Well, a couple yrs later, I'd say about 73 or so..cause I was about 14. Well, anyway, we were gettin high on some weed, and Don gets out a picture (a polaroid)that one of his soldier friend's took out of a window on a jet-liner, and this plane was goin' atleast 500 mph, and was atleast 20-40,000 ft in the sky...well, what it showed was absolutely AMAZING!!!! There in the picture was man with a white robe,long dark brown hair,the man was white,and had his arms out-streached..as if to say: " come unto me, all ye that are heavy-laden.. and I will give you rest"..and he was standing there..on a cloud!!! .......Looking right at the photographer! I'm completely serious..I saw the picture with my own eyes. and even held it and looked intently at it for awhile..Right then and there I believed in Jesus..and still do..completely.Amen. Anyway, that's my story, I wanted to share.It was truly remarkable. Edited August 15, 2011 by go2wrk@95974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeaveMyThingAlone Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 You guys are quoting Neil Peart lyrics from 25 years ago and using the present tense in describing Neil's beliefs. Personally, over a 25 year timeframe, I've known people that have gone from atheist to agnostic to Christian to Mormon Just like when people listen to 2112 and Anthem and assume Ayn Rand is still a huge influence on Neil's life. Even though Rush is still Rush the outside influences that shape Neil Peart the man has no doubt changed dramatically from 1976 to 1987 to 2012. Prime Mover (1987) seems to reflect Neil's beliefs in "something" like a God, but I think we all know Neil is an atheist today. So we can analyze this song all day but it only tells us what a totally different person believed 25 years ago. I think you're better off analyzing BU2B to know ho Neil is today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowItIs Posted August 15, 2011 Author Share Posted August 15, 2011 Well actually, I was talking about those lyrics at the time they appeared. If you'll read my original post I was referring to the lyric quoted from Prime Mover as a comment from Neil at that time about his earlier Randian beliefs. But if you want to discuss BU2B, we can do that. Personally, I believe it to be part of a story and being sung by the lead character. But some folks have got pretty steamed up (pun intended) over the lyrics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbirdsong Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 14 2011, 11:13 PM) But if you want to discuss BU2B, we can do that. Personally, I believe it to be part of a story and being sung by the lead character. But some folks have got pretty steamed up (pun intended) over the lyrics. Laughing One of the things I absolutely hate is when someone assumes they know me based on something I did or said 25 years ago. In BU2B we have an example of Neil Peart's most recent lyrics. But consider this... are these lyrics his own personal beliefs? Are they the beliefs of a character in the story he is telling? I can almost imagine him reading this forum and laughing a bit. He is an interesting fellow. I love God and want to see His face. I believe that I will on the last day. I don't think Neil Peart believes as I do. but man O man his lyrics are the cream of the crop when it comes to words on top of most modern rock n roll. He ain't saying oh baby I want to ________ (fill in the blank). He is thinking and searching and making an effort. Honestly I do wish he would come on down to Nashville and attend my church and enter into a personal relationship with God. I can't make him do it anymore than I make any of you reading this forum, but I do wish all of you would make an effort to talk to God. He will hear you. You may not get an answer or you may never believe, but the effort does count. I am glad that this discussion has survived for a couple of pages without getting locked or sent to that area of the forum where this sort of thing goes because everyone is being civil and thoughtful and after all Neil Peart writes these thoughtful lyrics and it gets us, the fans, thinking and isn't it worthwhile to discuss these sorts of things? And yes, Prime Mover is a very thought provoking song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go2wrk@95974 Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Ways Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 so we're bumping threads after 12 hours of no replies now? I was not replying based on the old adage if you have nothing nice to say.... based on the borderline paranoid post earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weakly Criminal Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 QUOTE (drbirdsong @ Aug 13 2011, 03:27 PM)There is a difference between spirituality and religion. I think it is the latter that NP has a problem with. I've been to churches full of sheep who worship their pastor and believe anything he tells them. I've been to others where they sat on the fence and didn't believe in much of anything. For me religion is about a relationship with God. I get the feeling that NP is not very interested in that at this time of his life and maybe he never will be. It is fascinating to see him exploring these ideas in his lyrics. Right, except this was the NP of so many years ago. Surely a 'half forgotten stranger' by now eh? QUOTE (trenken @ Aug 14 2011, 09:55 AM)Ever see some terrorists fly a plane into a building, while praising god in their final words believing it's what he wanted them to do? You saw that? Why the hell didn't you stop them? Oh wait, I get it. It's what you BELIEVE. Because someone told you it was true. Someone you trust. Someone you've elevated to a position somewhere between you and..... reality. QUOTE (clem @ Aug 14 2011, 06:45 PM)Cool! A Rush thread on religion that's gone on for two pages and no one is screaming insults at one and other! Great job! Let's keep it up folks! BTW - I remember an interview years ago where he talked about "Totem", he said that all religions have something "good" in them, and to some extent, that's what he was writing about. Example - who wouldn't want 12 disciples and/or a Buddha smile? Keep the Faith Clem 12 descipels who travel 'in one accord'? Sounds like a tight fit to me. You'd think they could at least afford a VW Bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lerxt1990 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 QUOTE (trenken @ Aug 13 2011, 10:30 AM) Long rant here. I don't think it's very hard to figure out. Neil is indifferent about the subject. He is a realist, he only believes what his eyes can see, doesn't believe in magic, etc... He recognizes there may be a god, but if it doesn't present itself, he chooses not to worship it. He's not an atheist in that he won't say there isn't one, otherwise he would never mention that there might be one, but he just simply doesn't know. In many songs he mentions there could be one. "To a god, a king or head of state". His main issues seem to be why some good people suffer if there was a god with any sort of control over the real world, he touches on this in many songs. Roll The Bones for example. And just the concept of organized religion. He doesn't believe in fate or destiny, but more that things happen without reason, circumstances. If you ever said the line to him, "It was meant to be", he would probably roll his eyes. It sure seems he will spend the rest of his days unsure if there is a god or not, but if there is one, he doesn't believe it's aware of us, that maybe all the planets and stars are just microscopic things within one of many giant cosmic cows, similar in a way to how our cells are not aware of us, and we are not aware of all of them. He also gets into this in Natural Science as well. Tidal pools are the only Universe to the tiny creatures that live in it. They live out their little meaningless lives and then simple cease to exist, which I really believe is how he looks at humans. We aren't really anything at all. We are weak creatures who will die and that's it, your time is up and won't mean anything at all. The singer from the band Live used to write about this a lot, except personally I feel that he writes about it in more of a personal way, less technical and cyborg-like how Neil writes, which is why feel that 3 of their albums have many lyrics I like more than anything Neil ever wrote. This is of their songs that talks about all this same stuff Neil constantly writes about, but a more positive vibe about it. Very spiritual along with the music, love this song so much. Very different than Rush, but as good in a different way. THE DISTANCE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrPDwLJR_NE let him come into the city let him find his lucky penny let him put it in his pocket and shake it all around I've been to pretty buildings, all in search of you I have lit all the candles, sat in all the pews the desert had been done before, but I didn't even care I got sand in both my shoes and scorpions in my hair I saw that... oh the distance is not do-able in these bodies of clay my brother oh the distance, it makes me uncomfortable guess it's natural to feel this way oh, let's hold out for somethin' sweeter spread your wings and fly my car became the church and I the worshipper of silence there in a moment peace came over me and the one who was beatin' my heart appeared and.... oh the distance is not do-able in these bodies of clay my brother oh the distance, it makes me uncomfortable guess it's natural to feel this way oh, are we locked into these bodies? let's hold out for somethin' sweeter spread your wings and fly oh, are we locked into these bodies? are we anything at all? let's hold out for somethin' sweeter spread your wings and fly this distance is dreamin' we're already there tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyndseyG Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 QUOTE (Ancient Ways @ Aug 16 2011, 02:22 AM) so we're bumping threads after 12 hours of no replies now? I was not replying based on the old adage if you have nothing nice to say.... based on the borderline paranoid post earlier. Who's that you're calling paranoid then? Huh? Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Rebel Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 13 2011, 05:56 AM) In asserting that man is the ultimate being in the Cosmos, the Objectivists refute the Greek philosophical idea of a Prime Mover. This leads me to believe that the song Prime Mover is a statement from Neil repudiating his former Randian beliefs. In his younger days, influenced by Rand's Anthem and Atlas Shrugged, he had apparently embraced most of the Objectivist Philosophy. But you can see the evolution of his thoughts beginning with Permanent Waves (Freewill, Natural Science, Entre Nous) and culminating in the song, Prime Mover. The repetition of the phrase, "anything can happen" seems to indicate his encompassing other philosophies (Heidegger? Descartes?). "The point of the journey is not to arrive," sounds somewhat Kierkegaardian. But the last verse... I set the wheels in motion turn up all the machines activate the programs and run behind the scenes I set the clouds in motion turn up light and sound activate the window and watch the world go 'round- ... while not a strict acceptance of a deity, voices the idea that there may possibly be one. A Prime Mover. Completely the opposite of the Randian idea that man is the only prime mover and is the end in and of himself. Hence, a repudiation of his earlier beliefs. Just some late night/early morning musing.... what do you think? Interesting and glad this got bumped. Sorry if long in advance. Great topic and I'm known to ramble. Aristotle was the first person to propose the Prime Mover or "Unmoved Mover". Saint Thomas Aquinas ran with the concept later on and made it part of the central Catholic doctrine. It simply means or refers to the "First Cause" or the theory that God spurred life from inanimate or dead material into living material which is still central Catholic dogma. In a bigger sense I think now it is looked at as the initial creator of the universe or existence. Prime being an infinite number, and God being infinite, thus Prime Mover. Neither could have known about the Big Bang Theory, CBS wasn't even invented. Anyway, the cool thing about Neil's lyrics is that he writes them in a way that leaves you to interpret the song for yourself and I have often found my views and opinions change over time as to the meanings, or that the meanings "to me" actually change. The song (To me) is about how we view life while alive, and question it's purpose. Hold your Fire in general was an album whose lyrics explored our inner passions, drives and intentions, the nature of existence and our purpose in it, along with our constant internal battles --( and one of my favorites lyrically). Force Ten - Look into the eye of the storm (Look at life straight on) Marathon- You can make the most of the distance (make the most out of life) Second Nature-We fight the fire-While we're feeding the flames (The internal battle of the mind and how rationality and kindness should be our default) Prime Mover- Alternating currents in a tidewater surge (The conflicting push and pull of nature on us) Rational resistance to an unwise urges (The conflicting nature of rational thought to our impulsive behavior) You, (How it Is -- My favorite forum name btw) suggest that Neil was evolving away at this point philosphically to agnosticim regarding the creator- Anything can happen - at the end of our lives, suggesting that in fact the hereafter is possible in his eyes. For a long time and mostly still do think of it is "anything can happen" to us while we are here on earth and to "make the most of the distance" as he mentions in Marathon. The funny thing is even suggesting agnosticism all those years ago would have been considered heretical by most accounts but alot of Neils suggestions seemed to fly by most people and not being a mainstream act (Top 40) it got mostly ignored-save the ever growing fan base that did get it. We also have the benefit of time and many other albums and interviews which lead us to believe he is athiest, or at least agnostic still. In any case, he does seem to be suggesting that the important part of life is living, not the hereafter-- Back then I took it as suggesting that yeah, "anything can happen" but it doesn't necessarily have to be something like heaven, it could just as well be nothing. In fact, anything can happen, we don't know. The point of the journey is not to arrive The point of departure is not to return (The point of life is to actually live) And that he is the Prime Mover (the uncaused cause if you want to get trippy) of his own life-- I set the wheels in motion I set the clouds in motion Edited August 16, 2011 by Running Rebel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowItIs Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Have I told you lately that I love you? Excellent "rant." (though I'm sure that someone else would give you a hard time about Marathon not being on HYF ) In regards to Neil's lyrics flying under the radar of the vast unwashed, I agree. I have always felt that Rush was one of those bands (along with The Police) that often saw the subtext of their songs go flying by the heads of the great majority. This is one thing that I feel sets us all apart as Rush fans - we get the lyrics. And if we don't do so right away, we seek out what they mean. It may take awhile (like for me with "the river" in TS - d'oh!) but we grok them eventually. That's why when Alex said in that interview that Rush fans "seek knowledge" I found my self nodding. Thanks for a very interesting reading of this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Rebel Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Marathon. Duhhhh. I ran to it this morning and was humming it all day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowItIs Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 QUOTE (Running Rebel @ Aug 16 2011, 08:07 PM) Marathon. Duhhhh. I ran to it this morning and was humming it all day! Catchy tune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Rebel Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 16 2011, 08:34 PM) Have I told you lately that I love you? Excellent "rant." (though I'm sure that someone else would give you a hard time about Marathon not being on HYF ) In regards to Neil's lyrics flying under the radar of the vast unwashed, I agree. I have always felt that Rush was one of those bands (along with The Police) that often saw the subtext of their songs go flying by the heads of the great majority. This is one thing that I feel sets us all apart as Rush fans - we get the lyrics. And if we don't do so right away, we seek out what they mean. It may take awhile (like for me with "the river" in TS - d'oh!) but we grok them eventually. That's why when Alex said in that interview that Rush fans "seek knowledge" I found my self nodding. Thanks for a very interesting reading of this subject. I love what you mentioned about how Rush fans seek knowledge and I believe it is the intelligent lyrics that keep us coming back. I've mentioned this before here, so forgive me for repeating, but I saw an interview with Steve Martin who talked about how much he loved Russian poetry because every time he would read it, he got something new out of it and was able to look at it differently- he learned something new every time. I love how Neil alludes to this concept alot in his writing, "A prize every time!" From the start over thirty years ago my best friend and Rush fan (Satch) would cruise around all night listening to 2112 on 8 track, stopping, rewinding, listening to figure out the lyrics, talking about them and learning. Ever since then a new album is like "A prize every time!" I know I am getting something that I can listen to repeatedly over time and it will always have that possibility of newness, that it will relate to the current soundtrack of my life in some way. I know recently there was a thread with alot of HYF bashing going on and I "resisted" posting in it. To each his own I guess. But to me, HYF lyrically just resonated with me and always will. It really speaks to holding that passion for life, holding your fire, no matter what life throws at you. Songs like Force Ten, Mission and Time Stand Still will always mean so much to me and are truly part of that "soundtrack of my life". And I am not dismissing the rest because I truly love them all, even Tai Shan and High Water We can rise and fall like empires Flow in and out like the tide Be vain and smart, humble and dumb We can hit and miss like pride I can listen to lyrics like that and think of the current economic situation, my economic situation, or personal relationships and how I am handling and dealing with those issues, and how yes, sometimes I "miss" just like pride. And really, the Lyrics to Mission to me are probably Neil's greatest lyrics. We each pay a fabulous price For our visions of paradise But a spirit with a vision Is a dream with a mission... That will never ever ever ever get old! So, I do think that we are all each our own Prime Movers of our lives and excuse me because I have to get on with mine for now, I (have to) set the wheels in motion turn up all the machines activate the programs and run behind the scene Edited August 17, 2011 by Running Rebel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyndseyG Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 17 2011, 02:34 AM) And if we don't do so right away, we seek out what they mean. It may take awhile (like for me with "the river" in TS - d'oh!) but we grok them eventually. I know what you mean. I didn't really like "Anagram" for a while and I realised it was because I didn't get the lyrics. So I looked them up... It's now one of my absolute favourites. BTW what song is "the river" on TS? What ones that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 of the 7 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 17 2011, 12:19 PM) BTW what song is "the river" on TS? What ones that? Tom Sawyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchance to Dream Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 QUOTE (go2wrk@95974 @ Aug 14 2011, 08:46 PM)Very interesting discussion. I agree with the poster that said there is a big difference between organized religion and a personal relationship with God. I'd like to tell you a story about my experience in finding God, If I can. A buddy of mine, back in Huntington Beach, calf.,my hometown, had 2 older brother's that did 3 tours ,between then, in Vietnam. One of them, came back from the jungle in 69..Well, a couple yrs later, I'd say about 73 or so..cause I was about 14. Well, anyway, we were gettin high on some weed, and Don gets out a picture (a polaroid)that one of his soldier friend's took out of a window on a jet-liner, and this plane was goin' atleast 500 mph, and was atleast 20-40,000 ft in the sky...well, what it showed was absolutely AMAZING!!!! There in the picture was man with a white robe,long dark brown hair,the man was white,and had his arms out-streached..as if to say: " come unto me, all ye that are heavy-laden.. and I will give you rest"..and he was standing there..on a cloud!!! .......Looking right at the photographer! I'm completely serious..I saw the picture with my own eyes. and even held it and looked intently at it for awhile..Right then and there I believed in Jesus..and still do..completely.Amen. Anyway, that's my story, I wanted to share.It was truly remarkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucsteve667 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowItIs Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Well put, indeed! Excellent post, RR! I love the lyrics of HYF so much. I'm so grateful that I rediscovered Rush last year and have been able to enjoy the "lost music" I missed. What a wonderfully diverse collection of great music! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 These topics about religion are never going away because the band is so focused on it, even more now than ever dedicating entire albums to the subject, S&A and now seemingly CA. So I think it's very fair to talk about this stuff as long as it doesnt turn into any personal attacks. This thread surprisingly has stayed pretty grounded which is nice. Neil makes his beliefs very clear, so we cant even argue that, what usually ends up happening is when people start bringing their personal views into it, thats right when these threads drop off a cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyndseyG Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 QUOTE (1 of the 7 @ Aug 18 2011, 01:37 AM) QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 17 2011, 12:19 PM) BTW what song is "the river" on TS? What ones that? Tom Sawyer Oh of course!! Ok you explain it to me coz I don't get that bit either?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msrushfreak Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) All very interesting and worthy of discussion, but some lyrics are pretty obscure. It could mean 100 different things to 100 different people, and something completely different to the writer. Maybe the prime mover is Taco Bell, and it's effect on Neil's digestive system. We'll just never know... http:// Edited August 18, 2011 by msrushfreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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