Hall of Famer Scott Rolen

[edhunter]

It is complete. Our nerd overlords have at last assumed total control. The Hall of Fame shall henceforth be named The Bill James Hall of Statistical Indisputability. Frauds like Cal Ripken and Nolan Ryan will be cast out and replaced with Scott Hattiesburg and John Olerud.  Actual games shall cease to be played from this point forever.  Instead, all new prospects worldwide shall be sent to  "proving grounds" at schools such as MIT, the Ivy League, Stamford and Vanderbilt.  The nerds they once stuffed into lockers will then drill them in a vast array of batting and fielding tests, to establish a statistical database.  Once the database is established, the prospects shall be discarded.  Money saved from exorbitant salaries shall be redirected to faster computing power, and a pep band. Future baseball games shall now take place in a BattleBots-style arena with Faruq Tauheed introducing teams of nerds who will sit across a table from each other with dueling laptops.  Video screens will display animated recreations of each team's move and subsequent response, and the statistics will determine the outcome. A beautiful new day shall dawn.

 

 

Scott Rolen, Hall of Fame

 

Good. Freaking. Hell.

Edited January 28 by edhunter

[laughedatbytime]

Rolen in, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, and Paul O'Neill out.

 

Sounds about right.

[edhunter]

36 minutes ago, laughedatbytime said:

Rolen in, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, and Paul O'Neill out.

 

Sounds about right.

 There is not a single Yankee currently not in the Hall who should be.  But there is no denying that people spent money to go see those guys play.  It's a pretty safe bet that no one over 8 ever said "I can't wait to go see Scott Rolen."

 

 I see the need for small market teams to use analytics, and their success over the long haul is not in dispute.   But they need a larger sample size to be truly effective and a 7-game series does not provide that.  Baseball has been far too slow in counteracting analytics'  destructive effect on the game.  I'm convinced the only way for the game to truly survive is to divide the league, similar to British soccer.  Relegate and promote the best and worst teams between the divisions. Shorten the season. Add the best teams from Japan.  

 

It's time for drastic steps. 

Edited January 28 by edhunter

[laughedatbytime]

I'd go the other way, like the NFL mostly has, and try to even out resources between teams.     It's the most successful sport by far and I don't think it would be if it wasn't for revenue sharing.   It's my opinion that differences in resources shouldn't matter; excellence in roster construction (and obviously, performance on the field) should.

 

Adding foreign teams or relegation is an interesting idea but unless you move the teams' operations to the US, or teleportation becomes viable, it's logistically impossible.

 

 

[edhunter]

21 minutes ago, laughedatbytime said:

I'd go the other way, like the NFL mostly has, and try to even out resources between teams.     It's the most successful sport by far and I don't think it would be if it wasn't for revenue sharing.   It's my opinion that differences in resources shouldn't matter; excellence in roster construction (and obviously, performance on the field) should.

 

Adding foreign teams or relegation is an interesting idea but unless you move the teams' operations to the US, or teleportation becomes viable, it's logistically impossible.

 

 

Bernie Sanders approves of this post.🤣

 

 

[Rick N. Backer]

2 hours ago, laughedatbytime said:

I'd go the other way, like the NFL mostly has, and try to even out resources between teams.     It's the most successful sport by far and I don't think it would be if it wasn't for revenue sharing.   It's my opinion that differences in resources shouldn't matter; excellence in roster construction (and obviously, performance on the field) should.

 

Adding foreign teams or relegation is an interesting idea but unless you move the teams' operations to the US, or teleportation becomes viable, it's logistically impossible.

 

 

Hard to say.  You're not going to like this, but even with revenue sharing, the Patriots were pretty much a lock to make the AFC Championship for about 20 straight seasons, give or take.  During that same period, there were teams like the Lions.  I agree that it is not good for a sport when a team dominates for too long and, conversely, when a team is a perennial doormat.    I'm not sure how you iron that out, but ultimately it would be best.

 

Hockey, IMO, seems to have solved the problem better than the other major sports. 

[laughedatbytime]

2 hours ago, edhunter said:

Bernie Sanders approves of this post.🤣

 

 

Can't say I didn't expect that, and I remember making this point to a conservative friend back when Bernie was still writing about how women fantasized about being tied up.   The difference is that entering into ownership in a sports league is a voluntary act, not coercion by the state.  If everyone agreed it would be good for the competitiveness of the product, and therefore their pocketbook it is perfectly consistent with free market principles.

[laughedatbytime]

38 minutes ago, Rick N. Backer said:

Hard to say.  You're not going to like this, but even with revenue sharing, the Patriots were pretty much a lock to make the AFC Championship for about 20 straight seasons, give or take.  During that same period, there were teams like the Lions.  I agree that it is not good for a sport when a team dominates for too long and, conversely, when a team is a perennial doormat.    I'm not sure how you iron that out, but ultimately it would be best.

 

Hockey, IMO, seems to have solved the problem better than the other major sports. 

Leaving aside the issue of whether a certain team had ***certain advantages***, the difference is that of course there are variations in competence, so equity of result won't happen.   By equalizing financial resources, you're producing equality of opportunity.

 

(I have a sneaking suspicion that your hockey comment was an attempt for you to get me to bring up the Bruins 38-6-4 record in an attempt to deny parity exists in the NHL, but I'm not falling for that! )

[edhunter]

19 minutes ago, laughedatbytime said:

Can't say I didn't expect that, and I remember making this point to a conservative friend back when Bernie was still writing about how women fantasized about being tied up.   The difference is that entering into ownership in a sports league is a voluntary act, not coercion by the state.  If everyone agreed it would be good for the competitiveness of the product, and therefore their pocketbook it is perfectly consistent with free market principles.

The majority of team owners could not care less about the finished product. Even the deep-pocketed Red Sox are dealing with that now. They're just part of a portfolio that includes Liverpool FC and the Pittsburgh Penguins. They only spend enough to put what they feel will be a profitable product on the field. A championship run would cost too much and the financial return wouldn't be worth it if they don't win.  Revenue sharing in baseball usually means the Yankees' owner pays for the Twins' owner's infinity pool at his Arizona winter home. 

[edhunter]

1 hour ago, Rick N. Backer said:

Hard to say.  You're not going to like this, but even with revenue sharing, the Patriots were pretty much a lock to make the AFC Championship for about 20 straight seasons, give or take.  During that same period, there were teams like the Lions.  I agree that it is not good for a sport when a team dominates for too long and, conversely, when a team is a perennial doormat.    I'm not sure how you iron that out, but ultimately it would be best.

 

Hockey, IMO, seems to have solved the problem better than the other major sports. 

The last 3 years have shown why that was....🤔

[Principled Man]

All I know is this:  When any sports Hall of Fame becomes more and more like the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, it's in trouble.      

[laughedatbytime]

14 minutes ago, edhunter said:

The majority of team owners could not care less about the finished product. Even the deep-pocketed Red Sox are dealing with that now. They're just part of a portfolio that includes Liverpool FC and the Pittsburgh Penguins. They only spend enough to put what they feel will be a profitable product on the field. A championship run would cost too much and the financial return wouldn't be worth it if they don't win.  Revenue sharing in baseball usually means the Yankees' owner pays for the Twins' owner's infinity pool at his Arizona winter home. 

I'm not sure there's anything inherent about baseball that would differentiate it from.football in terms of how revenue sharing would impact the product.  The revenue sharing that does occur is miniscule compared to the level it happens in the NFL, it isn't nearly enough to offset the differential in revenues, as it does in the NFL.

 

I don't know nearly enough about the situation in the NHL to comment on it.  Perhaps there are some things to consider from there that could help MLB.

 

[laughedatbytime]

1 minute ago, Principled Man said:

All I know is this:  When any sports Hall of Fame becomes more and more like the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, it's in trouble.      

If they really wanted to be more like the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame, they'd induct figure skaters and roller derby stars.

[edhunter]

50 minutes ago, laughedatbytime said:

I'm not sure there's anything inherent about baseball that would differentiate it from.football in terms of how revenue sharing would impact the product.  The revenue sharing that does occur is miniscule compared to the level it happens in the NFL, it isn't nearly enough to offset the differential in revenues, as it does in the NFL.

 

I don't know nearly enough about the situation in the NHL to comment on it.  Perhaps there are some things to consider from there that could help MLB.

 

Football makes a huge amount of money from national  marketing and TV deals. That money spreads equally. Baseball TV money comes mostly from regional networks, and are team-specific. 

[laughedatbytime]

4 minutes ago, edhunter said:

Football makes a huge amount of money from national  marketing and TV deals. That money spreads equally. Baseball TV money comes mostly from regional networks, and are team-specific. 

If revenue sharing was ended by the NFL owners, and each team sold their broadcast rights to the highest bidder, the disparity in team specific revenues would mirror that of baseball (it might be a bit less disparate but much more similar to MLB than to the currently constituted NFL distribution).   The owners know it's best for the product overall to share revenues so I don't ever see that happening, and I hope I don't live to see it.

[edhunter]

 Well, you may get your wish.  Regional sports networks are being dropped by their providers left and right.  That will drain the coffers of about  20 major league ball teams.  I haven't been able to watch a Bruins game all year because NESN was dropped by YouTube TV and hulu.   I'm not sure any fix of the product on the field will save them if no one can see it.

[Principled Man]

26 minutes ago, edhunter said:

 Well, you may get your wish.  Regional sports networks are being dropped by their providers left and right.  That will drain the coffers of about  20 major league ball teams.  I haven't been able to watch a Bruins game all year because NESN was dropped by YouTube TV and hulu.   I'm not sure any fix of the product on the field will save them if no one can see it.

 

 

The company that owns Bally Sports is near bankruptcy.  My Brewer games may be in great peril!  

[Rick N. Backer]

3 hours ago, laughedatbytime said:

Leaving aside the issue of whether a certain team had ***certain advantages***, the difference is that of course there are variations in competence, so equity of result won't happen.   By equalizing financial resources, you're producing equality of opportunity.

 

(I have a sneaking suspicion that your hockey comment was an attempt for you to get me to bring up the Bruins 38-6-4 record in an attempt to deny parity exists in the NHL, but I'm not falling for that! )

Actually I wasn't baiting you.  I was thinking about the Golden Knights making it to the finals in their first year.  The Lightning aside, who have been an anomaly, for the most part you have different teams in the finals every year.

[laughedatbytime]

36 minutes ago, Principled Man said:

 

 

The company that owns Bally Sports is near bankruptcy.  My Brewer games may be in great peril!  

 

[laughedatbytime]

41 minutes ago, Rick N. Backer said:

Actually I wasn't baiting you.  I was thinking about the Golden Knights making it to the finals in their first year.  The Lightning aside, who have been an anomaly, for the most part you have different teams in the finals every year.

I should admit my bias here (even though I'm not in SOCN, where it's virtually a requirement), but Las Vegas is my least favorite American city not named New York, but I don't know if I would agree with the Golden Knights as being an example of a structural bias in the NHL toward parity, or even equal opportunity, it may just be an example of NHL players being exposed to the Vegas "nightlife" for the first time unseasonably (granted I didn't check their home v road record that year.).  That, and it may have just been an anomaly, like a single murder in a sleepy New Hampshire hamlet.  

 

It may be that the relative paucity of scoring in the NHL leads to more random game outcomes, and a greater appearance of parity between teams, since records tend to cluster around .500 as well.

 

[invisible airwave]

7 hours ago, Principled Man said:

All I know is this:  When any sports Hall of Fame becomes more and more like the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, it's in trouble.      

Bronsan Arroyo, Scott Spiezio, Bernie Williams.

 

Spoiler

They're musicians as well.  Oh, and on a personal level, thank you for game 6, Scott.

 

[invisible airwave]

5 hours ago, edhunter said:

 Well, you may get your wish.  Regional sports networks are being dropped by their providers left and right.  That will drain the coffers of about  20 major league ball teams.  I haven't been able to watch a Bruins game all year because NESN was dropped by YouTube TV and hulu.   I'm not sure any fix of the product on the field will save them if no one can see it.

Maybe this will finally convince MLB's subscription to not have local blackouts for local teams.  I've tried the Apple TV games and their broadcasters suck.

[HemiBeers]

to add to the Rolen absurdity, maybe the stat-heads can explain why Rolen is in but Vada Pinson, with 700 more career hits than Rolen, is not. If you look at Rolen's career stats, it's interesting that his annual home run numbers fell off a cliff after 2004. Hmmmm....that's the same year that Sammy Sosa's and Barry Bonds HRs dropped like a rock. So one can logically question whether Rolen was doing steroids during this time. So I guess Rolen is 'pure' but the other steroid users aren't?

 

Speaking of steroids, the HOF needs to pull it's head out of it's ass and get over the 'ban' of the clemens, bonds, etc. crowd of steroid users. Also, get over the Pete Rose thing as well. Steroids enhanced their numbers, but not to the point where they would not have made it into the hall. My theory is this...take their steroid stat years and reduce them by half. They still would have made it into the hall. And who's to stay that the old timers from 60+ years ago weren't juicing up on something during their day? Alot of self-righteous double standards being applied.

[Principled Man]

4 minutes ago, HemiBeers said:

Also, get over the Pete Rose thing as well. 

 

 

MLB will wait until after he's dead to induct him.  I would bet real money on it.  

[laughedatbytime]

Ahhh, the principle of guilty until proven innocent.  Couldn't have been that back issues took their toll on his abilities.

 

Pinson is better than some in the Hall, his inclusion would be fine with me, but Ellen's defensive value made him a better all around player.

 

If there are three worse people in baseball history than Rose, Bonds, and Clemens, I'm glad not to know who they are.    That doesn't mean they don't belong in, but it makes me feel not one iota of sympathy for their plight.   Having said that, you could make the case for Bonds among the roiders, he compiled Hall worthy stats before he was a user.  Clemens did not.

 

As for Rose, the rules were as clear cut as they could be, and he broke them.   f**k that lying douchebag.