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An apology to all members of TRF concerning NEP.


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#21 EagleMoon

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 05:42 PM

View PostAikenrooster, on 04 April 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

View PostEagleMoon, on 04 April 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

View Postlaughedatbytime, on 04 April 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

View PostJohnRogers, on 04 April 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Deep thoughts and discussions in this thread, leave it to me to focus on the trivial. The USA is always some where at the top of modern fat people lists. Perhaps the Canadians and Mexicans are NOT the fat bastards the Americans are?

Nope.

"In 2008, a large proportion of Canadian adults were measured as overweight (37%) or obese (25%), and 36% were of normal weight."

"With a 32.8 percent adult obesity rate, Mexico just inches past the 31.8 percent obesity rate in the United States, according to a study released last month by the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization."

from a Google search

Was the quote from the book mentioned? I'd like to know exactly what he said.  I read the book several years ago after my mother passed away and it was helpful to me because I could identify with a lot of what he was feeling. I don't know why people rag on Neil so much. He's just a regular guy. It's like people expect him to be perfect when there is no such thing.
He complained about the fat people at the casinos in Nevada, the trailer trash in Idaho, the fat people in RVs at the National Parks, who would just drive to the scenic overlooks, and said the border patrol guy in Idaho was a Nazi.

Listen to what I'm saying:  he had troubles in Canada and Mexico, too, but he never really called the denizens of those countries names.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  I know it's a bit nit picky, but there is a difference.

I read your synopsis before but I mean the actual quotes from the book.

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#22 Lorraine

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 05:49 PM

Quote

He complained about the fat people at the casinos in Nevada, the trailer trash in Idaho, the fat people in RVs at the National Parks, who would just drive to the scenic overlooks, and said the border patrol guy in Idaho was a Nazi.

Did he really?

#23 laughedatbytime

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 05:57 PM

View PostLorraine, on 04 April 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

Quote

He complained about the fat people at the casinos in Nevada, the trailer trash in Idaho, the fat people in RVs at the National Parks, who would just drive to the scenic overlooks, and said the border patrol guy in Idaho was a Nazi.

Did he really?
Read some of the quotes from Amazon reviews:

"Indeed, I was quite disappointed by his attitude to most of the fellow travelers and others he crossed paths with on his Healing Road. People who were unable to experience the world in such a way as he did, because they were unable to pick up and leave the real world behind, and were only able to afford a rental RV or a tour bus ticket, were often the target of his often elitist and bigoted reactions. In fact, I slowly began to realize that only those individuals who were useful to him in some way, those who sacrificed for him, those who provided a much-needed service to him, were the only people who he had any use for. I was struck by his quoting of Steinbeck, "sometimes the nicest thing you can do for someone is to allow them to do something for you", and he certainly took that to heart. Anyone who wanted to do something for him was welcome to do so... sometimes. It is not a leap to presume that he considered himself the nicest person around, if that was the standard.

"Rednecks", fat people, religious people, Rush fans, fellow travelers, Highway Patrolmen who had the nerve to pull him over for speeding, "Americans" in general, and many others were fair game on the sharp end of his often poisonous pen. Obviously, drug traffickers are immune from his criticism, as much of the book consists of love letters to his best friend and 3-striker, Brutus, who is incarcerated for his actions. As the libertarian sort, I abhor drug laws, but the law is the law. A few people in his crosshairs deserved such contempt. The vast majority appeared not to be. I found myself wary of turning pages; anxious over where his intolerance would take us next, wondering who would be the next to be judged based on little more than a glance. Such a "deep" individual apparently failed to recognize that beauty, or lack thereof, is only skin deep. What kept me going was the anticipation of some epiphany, or some deep insight from the author on how he overcame confusion, loss, and despair."

"Also, his occasional jabs at fat people, trailer trash, and oblivious Americans left a bad taste -- taking cheap shots at easy targets is not moving writing. "

"even this work is harmed by his wide antisocial streak, his ungracious celebrity, and a tangible disdain for Americans."

", regarding most people he meets with disgust and generally acting like a self-indulgent jerk."

All in the first 10 responses.

http://www.amazon.co...iews/1550225480

#24 Lorraine

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 05:59 PM

View Postlaughedatbytime, on 04 April 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

View PostLorraine, on 04 April 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

Quote

He complained about the fat people at the casinos in Nevada, the trailer trash in Idaho, the fat people in RVs at the National Parks, who would just drive to the scenic overlooks, and said the border patrol guy in Idaho was a Nazi.

Did he really?
Read some of the quotes from Amazon reviews:

"Indeed, I was quite disappointed by his attitude to most of the fellow travelers and others he crossed paths with on his Healing Road. People who were unable to experience the world in such a way as he did, because they were unable to pick up and leave the real world behind, and were only able to afford a rental RV or a tour bus ticket, were often the target of his often elitist and bigoted reactions. In fact, I slowly began to realize that only those individuals who were useful to him in some way, those who sacrificed for him, those who provided a much-needed service to him, were the only people who he had any use for. I was struck by his quoting of Steinbeck, "sometimes the nicest thing you can do for someone is to allow them to do something for you", and he certainly took that to heart. Anyone who wanted to do something for him was welcome to do so... sometimes. It is not a leap to presume that he considered himself the nicest person around, if that was the standard.

"Rednecks", fat people, religious people, Rush fans, fellow travelers, Highway Patrolmen who had the nerve to pull him over for speeding, "Americans" in general, and many others were fair game on the sharp end of his often poisonous pen. Obviously, drug traffickers are immune from his criticism, as much of the book consists of love letters to his best friend and 3-striker, Brutus, who is incarcerated for his actions. As the libertarian sort, I abhor drug laws, but the law is the law. A few people in his crosshairs deserved such contempt. The vast majority appeared not to be. I found myself wary of turning pages; anxious over where his intolerance would take us next, wondering who would be the next to be judged based on little more than a glance. Such a "deep" individual apparently failed to recognize that beauty, or lack thereof, is only skin deep. What kept me going was the anticipation of some epiphany, or some deep insight from the author on how he overcame confusion, loss, and despair."

"Also, his occasional jabs at fat people, trailer trash, and oblivious Americans left a bad taste -- taking cheap shots at easy targets is not moving writing. "

"even this work is harmed by his wide antisocial streak, his ungracious celebrity, and a tangible disdain for Americans."

", regarding most people he meets with disgust and generally acting like a self-indulgent jerk."

All in the first 10 responses.

http://www.amazon.co...iews/1550225480

Unbelievable.  But I'm not surprised.

#25 GabesCavesOfIce

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 06:02 PM

Well, he was losing to Roger Taylor in the drum poll finals. Bad Kharma.

#26 EagleMoon

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 06:04 PM

I haven't noticed anything like that in the last few books I've read. I think Neil was mad at a lot of things after the death of his daughter and wife.

#27 laughedatbytime

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 06:04 PM

View Postlaughedatbytime, on 04 April 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

View PostLorraine, on 04 April 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

Quote

He complained about the fat people at the casinos in Nevada, the trailer trash in Idaho, the fat people in RVs at the National Parks, who would just drive to the scenic overlooks, and said the border patrol guy in Idaho was a Nazi.

Did he really?
Read some of the quotes from Amazon reviews:

"Indeed, I was quite disappointed by his attitude to most of the fellow travelers and others he crossed paths with on his Healing Road. People who were unable to experience the world in such a way as he did, because they were unable to pick up and leave the real world behind, and were only able to afford a rental RV or a tour bus ticket, were often the target of his often elitist and bigoted reactions. In fact, I slowly began to realize that only those individuals who were useful to him in some way, those who sacrificed for him, those who provided a much-needed service to him, were the only people who he had any use for. I was struck by his quoting of Steinbeck, "sometimes the nicest thing you can do for someone is to allow them to do something for you", and he certainly took that to heart. Anyone who wanted to do something for him was welcome to do so... sometimes. It is not a leap to presume that he considered himself the nicest person around, if that was the standard.

"Rednecks", fat people, religious people, Rush fans, fellow travelers, Highway Patrolmen who had the nerve to pull him over for speeding, "Americans" in general, and many others were fair game on the sharp end of his often poisonous pen. Obviously, drug traffickers are immune from his criticism, as much of the book consists of love letters to his best friend and 3-striker, Brutus, who is incarcerated for his actions. As the libertarian sort, I abhor drug laws, but the law is the law. A few people in his crosshairs deserved such contempt. The vast majority appeared not to be. I found myself wary of turning pages; anxious over where his intolerance would take us next, wondering who would be the next to be judged based on little more than a glance. Such a "deep" individual apparently failed to recognize that beauty, or lack thereof, is only skin deep. What kept me going was the anticipation of some epiphany, or some deep insight from the author on how he overcame confusion, loss, and despair."

"Also, his occasional jabs at fat people, trailer trash, and oblivious Americans left a bad taste -- taking cheap shots at easy targets is not moving writing. "

"even this work is harmed by his wide antisocial streak, his ungracious celebrity, and a tangible disdain for Americans."

", regarding most people he meets with disgust and generally acting like a self-indulgent jerk."

All in the first 10 responses.

http://www.amazon.co...iews/1550225480
The comments on the second page are even more brutal.

#28 Lorraine

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 06:43 PM

Quote

I was unfortunately wrong in my assumptions. While I can personally understand the depths of sorrow, loneliness, confusion, and despair that fate chose to place as an anchor upon Peart's heart, I also was struck by the impression of him as a self-absorbed millionaire who showed great disdain for the very people whose hard earned money made him so successful. The only way that he could have been more obvious in his opinion of his fans is by stating in the foreword, "Give me your money and then bug-off".


#29 Aikenrooster

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:09 PM

View PostEagleMoon, on 04 April 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

View PostAikenrooster, on 04 April 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

View PostEagleMoon, on 04 April 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

View Postlaughedatbytime, on 04 April 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

View PostJohnRogers, on 04 April 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Deep thoughts and discussions in this thread, leave it to me to focus on the trivial. The USA is always some where at the top of modern fat people lists. Perhaps the Canadians and Mexicans are NOT the fat bastards the Americans are?

Nope.

"In 2008, a large proportion of Canadian adults were measured as overweight (37%) or obese (25%), and 36% were of normal weight."

"With a 32.8 percent adult obesity rate, Mexico just inches past the 31.8 percent obesity rate in the United States, according to a study released last month by the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization."

from a Google search

Was the quote from the book mentioned? I'd like to know exactly what he said.  I read the book several years ago after my mother passed away and it was helpful to me because I could identify with a lot of what he was feeling. I don't know why people rag on Neil so much. He's just a regular guy. It's like people expect him to be perfect when there is no such thing.
He complained about the fat people at the casinos in Nevada, the trailer trash in Idaho, the fat people in RVs at the National Parks, who would just drive to the scenic overlooks, and said the border patrol guy in Idaho was a Nazi.

Listen to what I'm saying:  he had troubles in Canada and Mexico, too, but he never really called the denizens of those countries names.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  I know it's a bit nit picky, but there is a difference.

I read your synopsis before but I mean the actual quotes from the book.
I'm not going to be able to provide those for you, since I listened on audiobook.

#30 EagleMoon

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:21 PM

View PostAikenrooster, on 04 April 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

View PostEagleMoon, on 04 April 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

View PostAikenrooster, on 04 April 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

View PostEagleMoon, on 04 April 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

View Postlaughedatbytime, on 04 April 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

View PostJohnRogers, on 04 April 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Deep thoughts and discussions in this thread, leave it to me to focus on the trivial. The USA is always some where at the top of modern fat people lists. Perhaps the Canadians and Mexicans are NOT the fat bastards the Americans are?

Nope.

"In 2008, a large proportion of Canadian adults were measured as overweight (37%) or obese (25%), and 36% were of normal weight."

"With a 32.8 percent adult obesity rate, Mexico just inches past the 31.8 percent obesity rate in the United States, according to a study released last month by the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization."

from a Google search

Was the quote from the book mentioned? I'd like to know exactly what he said.  I read the book several years ago after my mother passed away and it was helpful to me because I could identify with a lot of what he was feeling. I don't know why people rag on Neil so much. He's just a regular guy. It's like people expect him to be perfect when there is no such thing.
He complained about the fat people at the casinos in Nevada, the trailer trash in Idaho, the fat people in RVs at the National Parks, who would just drive to the scenic overlooks, and said the border patrol guy in Idaho was a Nazi.

Listen to what I'm saying:  he had troubles in Canada and Mexico, too, but he never really called the denizens of those countries names.  That's the point I'm trying to make.  I know it's a bit nit picky, but there is a difference.

I read your synopsis before but I mean the actual quotes from the book.
I'm not going to be able to provide those for you, since I listened on audiobook.

Okay, just curious.

#31 toymaker

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:28 PM

Peart does sort of get shat on quite a bit.  I would guess that there are more people who find his lyrics and his other writings inspiring than there are folks who find him elitist or insulting or misanthropic or whatever else he's been called.  This opinion is probably unpopular.

I'm not even sure I'd trust a poll on this one . . .

Edited by toymaker, 04 April 2015 - 07:29 PM.


#32 GeminiRising79

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:42 PM

I'm sure he cringes at much of the stuff he wrote. I don't think Neil was known to be this nasty, in general...certainly highly egocentered- and no doubt the tragedies fueled his vitreolic wrath and bizarre behavior.  I recently got divorced and that alone did a number on my head and heart!

#33 Disembodied Spirit

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:43 PM

People on Motorcycles always exceed all speed limits.
They never buy them to go cruising at 55.
Neil is no different. I am not a fan of motorcycles, but have read Neil's books.
His perspective on life is always interesting.
Hearing him tell in detail about how the oil needs changing....skip ahead 2 paragraphs.
And I'm insulted he saw me in a Casino and did not say 'Hello'

#34 WorkingAllTheTime

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:01 PM

Yep, he's a middle of the road writer in the context of his books, but I enjoy most of what he has written.  I also put this particular book in the context of his time and place.   All the money in the world can't help you shake anger and depression.  Sure, he had the resources to take a different physical path through his cycle of response and the stages of grief, but the emotional and psychological triggers and mechanisms were the same as they would be for any person because, well, he's human.

And, wow, hey, he made some off-putting, poor taste comments about people.  That's down right...

typical.

In other words, he did exactly what every person on this planet has done in a period of anger, sadness, or weakness (if anyone reading this dares to suggest *they* have not said, written, or done something in anger, sadness, or weakness they knew was wrong and immature, I will flat out call them a liar... and a hypocrite... and a hypocritical liar).

So, yeah, he wrote some tacky things.  Pardon my french, but big f***ing deal.  We have *all* written some tacky things, nearly all of us (myself included... just did in this paragraph, in fact) in this forum.

Everyone repeat after me....   Neil is not our friend.  Neil owes us nothing.  Neil should not be held to extraordinary standards because he is rich or famous.  Neil should especially not be held to extraordinary standards because we are really, really, REALLY big fans of his music.  Neil is, though, human and capable of making mistakes and even regretting those mistakes.

His only real mistake in this book, though, was taking what should have been left a personal journal and publishing it.   That was indeed dumb.  I suspect he published it thinking it was his way of trying to connect with fans, knowing that he doesn't connect well through other means.  But the fact of the matter is this book was too raw, too personal, and too close to some very ugly, but equally real, aspects of the human psyche following tragedy and grief to be significantly helpful.  

How about everyone get off their high horse regarding Neil and, rather than judging him, ask themselves why they find it so necessary to judge him?

Edited by WorkingAllTheTime, 04 April 2015 - 08:07 PM.


#35 laughedatbytime

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:17 PM

View PostWorkingAllTheTime, on 04 April 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Yep, he's a middle of the road writer in the context of his books, but I enjoy most of what he has written.  I also put this particular book in the context of his time and place.   All the money in the world can't help you shake anger and depression.  Sure, he had the resources to take a different physical path through his cycle of response and the stages of grief, but the emotional and psychological triggers and mechanisms were the same as they would be for any person because, well, he's human.

And, wow, hey, he made some off-putting, poor taste comments about people.  That's down right...

typical.

In other words, he did exactly what every person on this planet has done in a period of anger, sadness, or weakness (if anyone reading this dares to suggest *they* have not said, written, or done something in anger, sadness, or weakness they knew was wrong and immature, I will flat out call them a liar... and a hypocrite... and a hypocritical liar).

So, yeah, he wrote some tacky things.  Pardon my french, but big f***ing deal.  We have *all* written some tacky things, nearly all of us (myself included... just did in this paragraph, in fact) in this forum.

Everyone repeat after me....   Neil is not our friend.  Neil owes us nothing.  Neil should not be held to extraordinary standards because he is rich or famous.  Neil should especially not be held to extraordinary standards because we are really, really, REALLY big fans of his music.  Neil is, though, human and capable of making mistakes and even regretting those mistakes.

His only real mistake in this book, though, was taking what should have been left a personal journal and publishing it.   That was indeed dumb.  I suspect he published it thinking it was his way of trying to connect with fans, knowing that he doesn't connect well through other means.  But the fact of the matter is this book was too raw, too personal, and too close to some very ugly, but equally real, aspects of the human psyche following tragedy and grief to be significantly helpful.  

How about everyone get off their high horse regarding Neil and, rather than judging him, ask themselves why they find it so necessary to judge him?
I agree that Neil owes us nothing.  I don't care in the slightest about meeting him, and would thank him for his work and quickly move on if I did, and would leave him alone if his body language suggested that was his preference.

It does disturb me that he's judgmental and negative about people he's never met , this is admittedly based on the descriptions contained above.  If those are not accurate or if he no longer holds those views, realizing that the book was written at a time of great distress, then I would change my opinion.   But if the observations still hold, it doesn't speak very well of him as a person; if that's judgmental, so be it, and if I don't live up to the standards of perfection, that doesn't obviate the observation in any sense.

#36 HemiBeers

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:19 PM

I guess I've never viewed any of the guys in a higher light than what they obviously do and are. I like their music, skill, Neil's lyrics (for the most part), his writings (for the most part)...but I never tried to empathize with them as though I'm an equal. I'm slightly curious about their life away from Rush, but I could never fully identify with their life, so I don't try.

Everyone has the right to their own conclusions. Mine is that it must be extremely difficult to separate the 'famous' person from the 'regular' person for someone of Neil's stature. Fame probably really screws with your head at times. People hinging on your every word, deed and mistake. I can make comments about fat hillibillies and trailer trash, but I don't have to worry about thousands of people reading into my every word. I'm sure all the guys, as nice as they appear on the surface, have been dicks at one time or another.

At the end of the day, they're my favorite Rock band and I highly admire their skill and career. My money buys their albums, merch and concerts but no guarantee of any personal connection.

#37 Aikenrooster

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 07:40 AM

View PostWorkingAllTheTime, on 04 April 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Yep, he's a middle of the road writer in the context of his books, but I enjoy most of what he has written.  I also put this particular book in the context of his time and place.   All the money in the world can't help you shake anger and depression.  Sure, he had the resources to take a different physical path through his cycle of response and the stages of grief, but the emotional and psychological triggers and mechanisms were the same as they would be for any person because, well, he's human.

And, wow, hey, he made some off-putting, poor taste comments about people.  That's down right...

typical.

In other words, he did exactly what every person on this planet has done in a period of anger, sadness, or weakness (if anyone reading this dares to suggest *they* have not said, written, or done something in anger, sadness, or weakness they knew was wrong and immature, I will flat out call them a liar... and a hypocrite... and a hypocritical liar).

So, yeah, he wrote some tacky things.  Pardon my french, but big f***ing deal.  We have *all* written some tacky things, nearly all of us (myself included... just did in this paragraph, in fact) in this forum.

Everyone repeat after me....   Neil is not our friend. Neil owes us nothing.  Neil should not be held to extraordinary standards because he is rich or famous.  Neil should especially not be held to extraordinary standards because we are really, really, REALLY big fans of his music.  Neil is, though, human and capable of making mistakes and even regretting those mistakes.

His only real mistake in this book, though, was taking what should have been left a personal journal and publishing it.   That was indeed dumb.  I suspect he published it thinking it was his way of trying to connect with fans, knowing that he doesn't connect well through other means.  But the fact of the matter is this book was too raw, too personal, and too close to some very ugly, but equally real, aspects of the human psyche following tragedy and grief to be significantly helpful.  

How about everyone get off their high horse regarding Neil and, rather than judging him, ask themselves why they find it so necessary to judge him?
Agree.
Agree.
I'm not on a "high horse."  The whole point of this thread was to apologize and humble myself to the other posters on here, who I claimed were being on their "high horse" and judging Neil, when, they were sort of right all along.

#38 WorkingAllTheTime

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 08:27 AM

View Postlaughedatbytime, on 04 April 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

View PostWorkingAllTheTime, on 04 April 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Yep, he's a middle of the road writer in the context of his books, but I enjoy most of what he has written.  I also put this particular book in the context of his time and place.   All the money in the world can't help you shake anger and depression.  Sure, he had the resources to take a different physical path through his cycle of response and the stages of grief, but the emotional and psychological triggers and mechanisms were the same as they would be for any person because, well, he's human.

And, wow, hey, he made some off-putting, poor taste comments about people.  That's down right...

typical.

In other words, he did exactly what every person on this planet has done in a period of anger, sadness, or weakness (if anyone reading this dares to suggest *they* have not said, written, or done something in anger, sadness, or weakness they knew was wrong and immature, I will flat out call them a liar... and a hypocrite... and a hypocritical liar).

So, yeah, he wrote some tacky things.  Pardon my french, but big f***ing deal.  We have *all* written some tacky things, nearly all of us (myself included... just did in this paragraph, in fact) in this forum.

Everyone repeat after me....   Neil is not our friend.  Neil owes us nothing.  Neil should not be held to extraordinary standards because he is rich or famous.  Neil should especially not be held to extraordinary standards because we are really, really, REALLY big fans of his music.  Neil is, though, human and capable of making mistakes and even regretting those mistakes.

His only real mistake in this book, though, was taking what should have been left a personal journal and publishing it.   That was indeed dumb.  I suspect he published it thinking it was his way of trying to connect with fans, knowing that he doesn't connect well through other means.  But the fact of the matter is this book was too raw, too personal, and too close to some very ugly, but equally real, aspects of the human psyche following tragedy and grief to be significantly helpful.  

How about everyone get off their high horse regarding Neil and, rather than judging him, ask themselves why they find it so necessary to judge him?
I agree that Neil owes us nothing.  I don't care in the slightest about meeting him, and would thank him for his work and quickly move on if I did, and would leave him alone if his body language suggested that was his preference.

It does disturb me that he's judgmental and negative about people he's never met , this is admittedly based on the descriptions contained above.  If those are not accurate or if he no longer holds those views, realizing that the book was written at a time of great distress, then I would change my opinion.   But if the observations still hold, it doesn't speak very well of him as a person; if that's judgmental, so be it, and if I don't live up to the standards of perfection, that doesn't obviate the observation in any sense.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that we have all, at some point, been judgmental about people we have never met.  Actually, wait, not, I am not out on a limb, I am firmly on the ground as that is reality.   What makes the majority of the people on the planet decent is that they know it is wrong and regret it.

Having read all of his books, this one is, in no doubt, different than the others.  He was very clearly not in a good place when he wrote it and pretty obviously not in a place to make good decisions (his decision to publish it being actual proof of those bad decisions).  I really have no reason to doubt that Neil would not look back at this book and cringe.

If someone were to ask me these questions about Neil Peart, my answer would be the same for each...

Do you think Neil can be intellectually arrogant?
Do you think Neil has some abnormal (in the clinical sense) responses to some of his fears?
Has Neil done or said some things that make you shake your head?

The answer, of course, would be "yes".

But those same questions could be asked of many people I know in my own life, even some friends and family.   If we are honest with ourselves, we all know and even like or love people who we could take those questions above and insert their names for "Neil".    Yet we don't feel the need to constantly lambast them, do we?  (I mean, I hope we don't because that would make us really mean people and bad friends and family).

Yet, for some reason, people feel they can do this to celebrities.  And, for some reason, many Rush fans feel the need to do this to Neil.

Obviously, this annoys me.

#39 laughedatbytime

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 08:45 AM

View PostWorkingAllTheTime, on 05 April 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postlaughedatbytime, on 04 April 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

View PostWorkingAllTheTime, on 04 April 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Yep, he's a middle of the road writer in the context of his books, but I enjoy most of what he has written.  I also put this particular book in the context of his time and place.   All the money in the world can't help you shake anger and depression.  Sure, he had the resources to take a different physical path through his cycle of response and the stages of grief, but the emotional and psychological triggers and mechanisms were the same as they would be for any person because, well, he's human.

And, wow, hey, he made some off-putting, poor taste comments about people.  That's down right...

typical.

In other words, he did exactly what every person on this planet has done in a period of anger, sadness, or weakness (if anyone reading this dares to suggest *they* have not said, written, or done something in anger, sadness, or weakness they knew was wrong and immature, I will flat out call them a liar... and a hypocrite... and a hypocritical liar).

So, yeah, he wrote some tacky things.  Pardon my french, but big f***ing deal.  We have *all* written some tacky things, nearly all of us (myself included... just did in this paragraph, in fact) in this forum.

Everyone repeat after me....   Neil is not our friend.  Neil owes us nothing.  Neil should not be held to extraordinary standards because he is rich or famous.  Neil should especially not be held to extraordinary standards because we are really, really, REALLY big fans of his music.  Neil is, though, human and capable of making mistakes and even regretting those mistakes.

His only real mistake in this book, though, was taking what should have been left a personal journal and publishing it.   That was indeed dumb.  I suspect he published it thinking it was his way of trying to connect with fans, knowing that he doesn't connect well through other means.  But the fact of the matter is this book was too raw, too personal, and too close to some very ugly, but equally real, aspects of the human psyche following tragedy and grief to be significantly helpful.  

How about everyone get off their high horse regarding Neil and, rather than judging him, ask themselves why they find it so necessary to judge him?
I agree that Neil owes us nothing.  I don't care in the slightest about meeting him, and would thank him for his work and quickly move on if I did, and would leave him alone if his body language suggested that was his preference.

It does disturb me that he's judgmental and negative about people he's never met , this is admittedly based on the descriptions contained above.  If those are not accurate or if he no longer holds those views, realizing that the book was written at a time of great distress, then I would change my opinion.   But if the observations still hold, it doesn't speak very well of him as a person; if that's judgmental, so be it, and if I don't live up to the standards of perfection, that doesn't obviate the observation in any sense.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that we have all, at some point, been judgmental about people we have never met.  Actually, wait, not, I am not out on a limb, I am firmly on the ground as that is reality.   What makes the majority of the people on the planet decent is that they know it is wrong and regret it.

Having read all of his books, this one is, in no doubt, different than the others.  He was very clearly not in a good place when he wrote it and pretty obviously not in a place to make good decisions (his decision to publish it being actual proof of those bad decisions).  I really have no reason to doubt that Neil would not look back at this book and cringe.

If someone were to ask me these questions about Neil Peart, my answer would be the same for each...

Do you think Neil can be intellectually arrogant?
Do you think Neil has some abnormal (in the clinical sense) responses to some of his fears?
Has Neil done or said some things that make you shake your head?

The answer, of course, would be "yes".

But those same questions could be asked of many people I know in my own life, even some friends and family.   If we are honest with ourselves, we all know and even like or love people who we could take those questions above and insert their names for "Neil". Yet we don't feel the need to constantly lambast them, do we?  (I mean, I hope we don't because that would make us really mean people and bad friends and family).

Yet, for some reason, people feel they can do this to celebrities.  And, for some reason, many Rush fans feel the need to do this to Neil.

Obviously, this annoys me.
Sure, everybody's judged people they don't know.  I have.   Do I regret it?   Of course.   Do I try and justify it in my mind, no.    

Do most people do it as consistently and repeatedly as he did in this book?   Maybe, I hope not, but even if they do, for those that do, does it shed some light on their character.    

I have no trouble with his comments if he was in a bad place and regrets the comments he made.   He's written enough (I haven't read any of it though, admittedly) that if he feels bad and wants to correct the record, he could easily have done so.   Has he done this?   I honestly don't know.

I guess this is part of celebrity.    But for every possibly unjust criticism celebrities get, and for every double standard they're subjected to, there's another person willing to ignore or downplay their bad behavior because they're good at their craft.

I share a lot of personality traits with Neil.    One that I hope I don't--and I hope that he doesn't have--is contempt for other people I don't really know based on their physical attributes.

#40 WorkingAllTheTime

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 08:46 AM

View PostAikenrooster, on 05 April 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

View PostWorkingAllTheTime, on 04 April 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Yep, he's a middle of the road writer in the context of his books, but I enjoy most of what he has written.  I also put this particular book in the context of his time and place.   All the money in the world can't help you shake anger and depression.  Sure, he had the resources to take a different physical path through his cycle of response and the stages of grief, but the emotional and psychological triggers and mechanisms were the same as they would be for any person because, well, he's human.

And, wow, hey, he made some off-putting, poor taste comments about people.  That's down right...

typical.

In other words, he did exactly what every person on this planet has done in a period of anger, sadness, or weakness (if anyone reading this dares to suggest *they* have not said, written, or done something in anger, sadness, or weakness they knew was wrong and immature, I will flat out call them a liar... and a hypocrite... and a hypocritical liar).

So, yeah, he wrote some tacky things.  Pardon my french, but big f***ing deal.  We have *all* written some tacky things, nearly all of us (myself included... just did in this paragraph, in fact) in this forum.

Everyone repeat after me....   Neil is not our friend. Neil owes us nothing.  Neil should not be held to extraordinary standards because he is rich or famous.  Neil should especially not be held to extraordinary standards because we are really, really, REALLY big fans of his music.  Neil is, though, human and capable of making mistakes and even regretting those mistakes.

His only real mistake in this book, though, was taking what should have been left a personal journal and publishing it.   That was indeed dumb.  I suspect he published it thinking it was his way of trying to connect with fans, knowing that he doesn't connect well through other means.  But the fact of the matter is this book was too raw, too personal, and too close to some very ugly, but equally real, aspects of the human psyche following tragedy and grief to be significantly helpful.  

How about everyone get off their high horse regarding Neil and, rather than judging him, ask themselves why they find it so necessary to judge him?
Agree.
Agree.
I'm not on a "high horse."  The whole point of this thread was to apologize and humble myself to the other posters on here, who I claimed were being on their "high horse" and judging Neil, when, they were sort of right all along.

First, my apologies.  My rant was not intended to be at you (yet I didn't make that clear).  It is actually intended to be directed at the general anti-Neil tone that permeates this and many other Rush forums.

In my response to LABT, I make it pretty clear that, yes, I do think Neil has some traits and behaviors that are flawed and odd.  But I also try to make it pretty clear those things make him just like all of us:  a person.   Aside from money, fame, and musical talent, Neil is fundamentally the same as any of us, a flawed human being.  

For some reason, though, there is a group of Rush fans who I think have a very unhealthy set of expectations from all three members of the group.  Alex and Geddy, in my opinion, do a better job of managing those unhealthy expectations, in both the interpersonal and emotional sense.  Neil, frankly, doesn't do as well managing the expectations.  While I get that he is fundamentally an introvert and he is deeply uncomfortable with certain aspects of fame, I also think he can be his own worst enemy by not directly facing the challenge and his fears (e.g., formal meet and greets, etc.).  Alas, I don't think he should be doing those things for his fans, rather I think he should be doing them for himself.

So, in the big picture, Alex and Geddy "play the game" and Neil does not.  But, really, it's just that: a game.  I can give some examples as to why it is a game and little more than folly.  Neil gets accused of being a hypocrit for having expensive toys and hobbies, yet writing songs like CTTH or The Larger Bowl.  Alex and Geddy also have very expensive toys and hobbies and play the same songs, but get a pass on their wealth.  Every step of Neil's behavior gets picked apart and criticized, yet many, MANY Rush fans casually ignored Alex and his sons' own part in the Florida New Year's Eve incident (yes, the cops and hotel staff were overzealous, but it is pretty evident Alex and his son - his son in particular - didn't help their own cause).   And here's the best one:   Neil has made it clear that he wants to spend more time with his family and that is driving his lack of interest in touring, but fans then call him a hypocrit for spending time away from his family in the past and get angry at the idea that Neil's familial aspirations are likely to end the band's run.   In other words, the man is admitting regret for some things, but fans are using his admitting that regret to somehow prove a point?  The man can't win for trying.

So, I will throw out a tacky thought on this Easter Sunday.... if Neil has developed a Messiah Complex over the years, I would not be surprised.  He has been repeatedly crucified by his "fans" for a very long time.




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