RUSH - Religion, Humanism, And When They Became Bland

[EagleMoon]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

Right after Caress of Steel, then?

 

I'm guessing you didn't read my further explanation?

[goose]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

Right after Caress of Steel, then?

 

I'm guessing you didn't read my further explanation?

Nope. But it is at 2112 where Neil starts to get preachy. It's part of why AFTK title track doesn't swing with me. Freewill doesn't bother me though. So there you go.

[Lucas]

Rational thinking constantly forced into art tends to be very sterile

 

I'm just saying that any artist - in this case, Neil, Alex and Geddy - is more interesting when there is an air of mystery and a good chunk of irrational nuttiness

 

Why should there be any interest in art that simply reinforces the viewer or listener's already developed views on rational or ethical positions ??

 

The fact that Rush used the Biblical story of Jacob's Ladder as a springboard for one of their greatest accomplishments kinda says it all ..

 

 

 

http://www.artble.com/imgs/9/d/f/424815/jacob_s_dream.jpg

 

I don't think Rush used any biblical springboards on this one.. it's about a weather phenomenon that is named after a biblical story.

 

I'm reposting what Look To Siris posted regarding Jacob's Ladder - a quote from Neil:

 

In my lyrics I've drawn a lot of references from The Bible, because it's a very colorful source of images. And I grew up, not religious, but in a religious background, going to Sunday school and taking religious education in school and so on. So, all these things do suggest themselves as metaphors and "Jacob's Ladder" is a lovely phrase, those two words itself. And that's in fact what we started with, we looked at the song as being a 'cinemative' kind of exercise and before any lyrics were written we talked about the image of "Jacob's Ladder", of a cloudy sky coming on and then all of a sudden these beams of light, which, everybody sees and I have always found very inspiring sort of thing. We had that experience in common. So we created the music just out of that vision and that image and wrote the whole song around that. And then in retrospect I went back and wrote a couple of verses of lyrics just to depict the image a little more acute and also to bring the vocals in as an instrumental sound. -Neil Peart, 1980

 

 

I'll add that grand or majestic weather phenomena has always been linked to spirituality, going back thousands of years .. "Looking to the skies" implies a lot more than simply checking to see if it is going to rain

 

 

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Edited September 26, 2015 by Lucas

[Lucas]

Nice thread Lucas. what are your thoughts on CA lyrics? It's seems as though he tried to dip into the past a bit but fell short somehow.. I can't really explain how but something's missing

 

 

I found the Clockwork Angels story similar to The Fountain Of Lamneth, in that chronicles a lifetime of experiences, and thru those experiences, we end up where we are ..

 

But at the end of Lamneth, it is as if the journey is cyclical, involving one individual .... Clockwork Angels, I feel, is more about how one individual's life is a part of the big picture, and how that one person has an effect on everyone ..

 

There is something missing with Clockwork Angels - some of the ideas are fascinating - like The Wreckers - but as you mentioned, it fell short ..

 

The music itself has a lot to do with that too - to my taste, Rush was much more inspired and adventurous in 1975 than 2012

 

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Edited September 26, 2015 by Lucas

[Narps]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

Right after Caress of Steel, then?

 

I'm guessing you didn't read my further explanation?

Nope. But it is at 2112 where Neil starts to get preachy. It's part of why AFTK title track doesn't swing with me. Freewill doesn't bother me though. So there you go.

I am just so glad I never really cared what the lyrics were trying to impart on me or teach me. I just always loved the music and of course this one is an all-timer for me. Not just the title track but the whole thing. Special. Special. Special... Edited September 26, 2015 by Narps

[EagleMoon]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

Right after Caress of Steel, then?

 

I'm guessing you didn't read my further explanation?

Nope. But it is at 2112 where Neil starts to get preachy. It's part of why AFTK title track doesn't swing with me. Freewill doesn't bother me though. So there you go.

I am just so glad I never really cared what the lyrics were trying to impart on me or teach me. I just always loved the music and of course this one is an all-timer for me. Not just the title track but the whole thing. Special. Special. Special...

 

So you never really listened to the lyrics or you just didn't pay any attention to them? To me the lyrics were a big reason I was drawn to the band in the first place. (though not the only reason of course, their musicianship and songwriting skills were superb) He actually wrote intelligent lyrics, which for the time was highly unusual. I can't think of another band that at the time was writing about similar subject matter.

[hcm]

I have was drawn to the lyrics too but also loved the unusual time signatures

[Narps]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

Right after Caress of Steel, then?

 

I'm guessing you didn't read my further explanation?

Nope. But it is at 2112 where Neil starts to get preachy. It's part of why AFTK title track doesn't swing with me. Freewill doesn't bother me though. So there you go.

I am just so glad I never really cared what the lyrics were trying to impart on me or teach me. I just always loved the music and of course this one is an all-timer for me. Not just the title track but the whole thing. Special. Special. Special...

 

So you never really listened to the lyrics or you just didn't pay any attention to them? To me the lyrics were a big reason I was drawn to the band in the first place. (though not the only reason of course, their musicianship and songwriting skills were superb) He actually wrote intelligent lyrics, which for the time was highly unusual. I can't think of another band that at the time was writing about similar subject matter.

An excellent way to phrase it. I heard them but didn't really pay attention. I knew they were way "smarter" than the other bands I loved but never really cared to examine or read into why. Great analysis Eagle... :cheers:

[EagleMoon]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

Right after Caress of Steel, then?

 

I'm guessing you didn't read my further explanation?

Nope. But it is at 2112 where Neil starts to get preachy. It's part of why AFTK title track doesn't swing with me. Freewill doesn't bother me though. So there you go.

I am just so glad I never really cared what the lyrics were trying to impart on me or teach me. I just always loved the music and of course this one is an all-timer for me. Not just the title track but the whole thing. Special. Special. Special...

 

So you never really listened to the lyrics or you just didn't pay any attention to them? To me the lyrics were a big reason I was drawn to the band in the first place. (though not the only reason of course, their musicianship and songwriting skills were superb) He actually wrote intelligent lyrics, which for the time was highly unusual. I can't think of another band that at the time was writing about similar subject matter.

An excellent way to phrase it. I heard them but didn't really pay attention. I knew they were way "smarter" than the other bands I loved but never really cared to examine or read into why. Great analysis Eagle... :cheers:

 

Thanks. I know I didn't listen to a lot of bands lyrics when I was younger. I was more into the music than what the words had to say. Rush was the exception to that rule. Neils lyrics always made me think and explore the basis behind them. He made me read a lot of literature and poetry that I probably otherwise would have not gotten around to reading.

[Narps]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

Right after Caress of Steel, then?

 

I'm guessing you didn't read my further explanation?

Nope. But it is at 2112 where Neil starts to get preachy. It's part of why AFTK title track doesn't swing with me. Freewill doesn't bother me though. So there you go.

I am just so glad I never really cared what the lyrics were trying to impart on me or teach me. I just always loved the music and of course this one is an all-timer for me. Not just the title track but the whole thing. Special. Special. Special...

 

So you never really listened to the lyrics or you just didn't pay any attention to them? To me the lyrics were a big reason I was drawn to the band in the first place. (though not the only reason of course, their musicianship and songwriting skills were superb) He actually wrote intelligent lyrics, which for the time was highly unusual. I can't think of another band that at the time was writing about similar subject matter.

An excellent way to phrase it. I heard them but didn't really pay attention. I knew they were way "smarter" than the other bands I loved but never really cared to examine or read into why. Great analysis Eagle... :cheers:

 

Thanks. I know I didn't listen to a lot of bands lyrics when I was younger. I was more into the music than what the words had to say. Rush was the exception to that rule. Neils lyrics always made me think and explore the basis behind them. He made me read a lot of literature and poetry that I probably otherwise would have not gotten around to reading.

As you are already aware I never caught the reading bug... :)

[Ancient Ways]

Rational thinking constantly forced into art tends to be very sterile

 

I'm just saying that any artist - in this case, Neil, Alex and Geddy - is more interesting when there is an air of mystery and a good chunk of irrational nuttiness

 

Why should there be any interest in art that simply reinforces the viewer or listener's already developed views on rational or ethical positions ??

 

The fact that Rush used the Biblical story of Jacob's Ladder as a springboard for one of their greatest accomplishments kinda says it all ..

 

 

 

http://www.artble.com/imgs/9/d/f/424815/jacob_s_dream.jpg

 

I don't think Rush used any biblical springboards on this one.. it's about a weather phenomenon that is named after a biblical story.

:goodone:

 

The clouds prepare for battle

In the dark and brooding silence

Bruised and sullen stormclouds

Have the light of day obscured

Looming low and ominous

In twilight premature

Thunderheads are rumbling

In a distant overture

 

All at once,

The clouds are parted

Light streams down

In bright unbroken beams

 

Follow men's eyes

As they look to the skies

The shifting shafts of shining

Weave the fabric of their dreams...

 

 

No religious reference in there.

Agreed, and I don't always put a lot of stock in what writers claim after the fact about their work. Neil might want this to be deeper than it is but it's clear what it is about.

[Lucas]

I think my point was more along the lines of inspiration, both what inspired the artist, and what about the work inspires the listener ...

 

Jacob's Ladder - both the lyrics and the instrumentation - creates a amazing picture for me

 

I think spirituality has definite a connection with the human spirit, and the ability to see beyond what is bland reality ... It fires our creative instincts, and that's what I find a connection with . . .

 

This is in complete contrast to religion, as I probably made that mistake in my initial post ...

 

Religion, to me, is simply a set of rules and guidelines, whereas spiritualty is the complete opposite

[MusicHead]

Interesting post. I still think there is plenty of visual material in a lot of the lyrics - and a lot of encapsulations of historical events and things like that.

 

But, sure, a lot more commentary, which some take to be preachy, rather than giving us a chance to work out the meaning from narrative.

 

Agreed. Good art helps us think--not TELL us what to think.

[toymaker]

Follow men's eyes

As they look to the skies

The shifting shafts of shining

Weave the fabric of their dreams...

 

 

No religious reference in there.

Agreed, and I don't always put a lot of stock in what writers claim after the fact about their work. Neil might want this to be deeper than it is but it's clear what it is about.

 

Not "religious" overtly, but this last bit of Jacob's Ladder may be referring to that impulse that people have, when faced with things that are amazing and sometimes unexplainable, to create a supernatural explanation or narrative - the "fabric of their dreams" could refer to those fantastical gestures.

Edited September 30, 2015 by toymaker

[Geddy's Soul Patch]

Yes, at the end of the 70s Rush decided it was better to write about the human experience in a more concrete way; and yes, they also have gone off the rails on the anti-religion angle a few times. Having said that, I don't see how it's any more sterile than writing semi-cryptic mystical songs or writing songs with a very philosophical angle

[JBsDWdrums]

Honestly for all the kerfuffle and complaining in regards to Neils critical commentary on religion (sorry but I don't think he's bashing it....only the negative side effects that can and do result)...how is this any different than the thinking that lead to his little twenty minute starman story?.... Is it all that much different than Hemispheres?.... I think not...he's talking about freedom...balance...and dogma...in all cases....choosing freewill. Edited October 1, 2015 by JBsDWdrums

[New World Kid]

My favorite Rush is later Rush. The 20 minute epics, sci-fi story telling, and musically semi-wankery that hooked me in my youth gave way to songs about people, emotion and real life.

[Lucas]

My favorite Rush is later Rush. The 20 minute epics, sci-fi story telling, and musically semi-wankery that hooked me in my youth gave way to songs about people, emotion and real life.

 

Understood, and valid points

 

But I have always had people, emotion and real life in my real life, so I like the space wankery

 

Be that as it may, I do enjoy real life songs too, I just don't think it suited Rush - esp Neil

 

[Lucas]

Honestly for all the kerfuffle and complaining in regards to Neils critical commentary on religion (sorry but I don't think he's bashing it....only the negative side effects that can and do result)...how is this any different than the thinking that lead to his little twenty minute starman story?.... Is it all that much different than Hemispheres?.... I think not...he's talking about freedom...balance...and dogma...in all cases....choosing freewill.

 

I probably made a mistake using the word "religion" too much here ... My thoughts were more along the lines of spirituality, and allowing the mind to go beyond what is generally seen and acknowledged in the everyday world ..

 

I was 12 years old when I saw them play Jacob's Ladder on the Permanent Waves tour, and the music, lighting and entire vibe of that still sits with me - it was a very inspiring and powerful thing

 

I just cannot imagine getting that from something like Big Money, where it is pretty much common knowledge that they intentionally tried to mimic game show music in the intro

 

 

.

 

.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Lucas

[New World Kid]

My favorite Rush is later Rush. The 20 minute epics, sci-fi story telling, and musically semi-wankery that hooked me in my youth gave way to songs about people, emotion and real life.

 

Understood, and valid points

 

But I have always had people, emotion and real life in my real life, so I like the space wankery

 

Be that as it may, I do enjoy real life songs too, I just don't think it suited Rush - esp Neil

 

That's fair. And I still love the older Rush material too for the most part. It's just that Presto probably gets about 10 plays for every 1 play of Fly By Night for me.

Edited October 1, 2015 by New World Kid

[JBsDWdrums]

Honestly for all the kerfuffle and complaining in regards to Neils critical commentary on religion (sorry but I don't think he's bashing it....only the negative side effects that can and do result)...how is this any different than the thinking that lead to his little twenty minute starman story?.... Is it all that much different than Hemispheres?.... I think not...he's talking about freedom...balance...and dogma...in all cases....choosing freewill.

 

I probably made a mistake using the word "religion" too much here ... My thoughts were more along the lines of spirituality, and allowing the mind to go beyond what is generally seen and acknowledged in the everyday world ..

 

I was 12 years old when I saw them play Jacob's Ladder on the Permanent Waves tour, and the music, lighting and entire vibe of that still sits with me - it was a very inspiring and powerful thing

 

I just cannot imagine getting that from something like Big Money, where it is pretty much common knowledge that they intentionally tried to mimic game show music in the intro

 

 

.

 

.

 

No I get where you are coming from....I'm probably getting off the rails but I'm referring to how people feel for example Snakes was so "preachy" against religion....I'm not all that shocked....heck the 2112 theme was all about thinking for yourself against a larger societal structure being run by of all things. ..."priests" from a "temple".....

 

Its always thematically been Rushs thing....

 

But of course once you take that idea from fairy tale to how it operates on good ole terra firma....it can be more dry I guess.

 

Interesting side note....cinematically Snakes offered big pig picture imagery....as did something like Nobodys Hero...that I found moving live....even Force Ten...which I saw live again in Atl just days after Sandy hit...had a whole new resonance that night....

Edited October 1, 2015 by JBsDWdrums

[Tony R]

Isn't Jacobs ladder inspired by the atmospheric phenomenon, not the biblical story?

 

 

Follow men's eyes as they look to the skies

The shifting shafts of shining weave the fabric of their dreams...

 

 

Given that he uses the word "men's" it is reasonable to allow for a religious or biblical allusion though Peart is an agnostic. I read it as both "reaching for the skies" in terms of human endeavour and marvelling at "the wonders of God's creation".

[Tony R]

I think the lyrics come across as stilted because of Lee's insistence on rewrites to fit his own views and his singing style. I reckon Peart's first drafts read much better.

[Lucas]

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/rush/images/books/sounds-05.05.1979/sounds-05.05.1979-8.jpg

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/ms55c799e1.jpg

Edited March 20, 2016 by Lucas

[The Analog Cub]

I think the lyrics come across as stilted because of Lee's insistence on rewrites to fit his own views and his singing style. I reckon Peart's first drafts read much better.

 

I don't know much about Ged's views, but would you rather have Geddy sing about a massive pendulous scrotum instead of what has ended up as the finished product?