Newbie here

[Shranexis0]

I've listened to as many studio albums as I can, and I can drum a bunch of Rush songs exactly as is, correct cymbals, dauz pads, everything, but I still don't understand how they pull off their synth.

 

First, can someone tell me how Geddy pedals work, what the difference between moog, minimoog, and taurus is, what sounds from what songs are played on pedal and what on keyboard, how the pedals trigger the sounds, whether the sounds are controlled or sampled, etc.

 

Second, can someone tell me about the different kinds of electric drums, including shark pad, dauz pad, d-drum, etc.

 

Third, can someone tell me what synth Lifeson does?

 

Fourth, can someone tell me how a swish is different from other cymbals?

 

I'd really love to know how they pull off all this technology with three guys, especially on the Power Windows album!

 

Thanks.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Geddy's pedals:

These days Geddy uses a couple Roland midi pedal keyboard controllers to trigger Roland samplers. His hand keyboards also trigger samplers and various synth modules. All of his keyboards are used as remote keyboard controllers using midi.

 

Doctor Robert Moog (pronounced Mogue) created the first commercially availble synthesizer, the Moog synthesizer. It was a huge patchbay sort of thing that the player had to literally "patch" oscillators, resonators and filters using patch cables. This is where the term "patch" for synthesizer tones comes from. The second Moog synth ever built can be heard on the Beatles Abbey Road album. The mini Moog was a small self contained unit with a minimal keyboard (I think only 2 octaves). Geddy used this from around 2112 through Hemispheres. Moog also made Taurus pedals, which were initially used for bass notes when Geddy played the 12 string on his double neck (Passage to Bangkok, Xanadu). They later used higher notes to fill out their sound (all over Hemispheres, Permanent Waves, and Moving Pictures).

 

With Permanent Waves came the first version of midi and synths began to be tied together and communicating with each other. The Taurus pedals were midi-fied and began to trigger sounds from other synths and sequencers, which has evolved over the years into the way they use them today. Rush probably uses midi to the most advantage over most any other band.

 

The electric drums you mention are all different triggers. ddrum makes "brains" which, like V-Drums, has a boat load of sampled drum and percussion sounds to choose from. Though Neil too uses samplers in addition to his current V-Drum brain. The first real electric drum kits were made by Simmons in the early 1980's. The first electronic drum I remember hearing about, when I was around 11 (mid to late 70's) was the SynDrum and then another called the Synare. Both were very cheesy self contained drum trigger and synth units with very limited capability. Synares can be heard on the early Cars records (Just What I Needed for example) or Rock and Roll Fantasy by Bad Co (though that could be SynDrums). V-Drums are probably the best sounding and most sophisticated electronic drum system available today, followed closely by ddrum.

 

"Fortunately I always keep my feathers numbered for just such an occasion."

Fohorn Leghorn

Here is my controversial list of "who does what" for the R30 tour, from my notes of careful observation. Like it or not, agree with it or not go right ahead. Their show is extremely sophisticated and pushes the technological boundries.

 

Spirit of Radio

Geddy triggers the sequenced melody during "Invisible airwaves..."

Alex plays the foot pedal bass line during this part as well

Neil uses the midiKAT for the sampled glockenspiel (I miss the real thing)

 

Force Ten

Neil triggers jack hammer (Roland V-Drum pad above floor toms) and percusion sound (foot pedal)

Geddy triggers choral "ah's", wacky ascending synthesizer phrases with foot keyboard, funky bass part towards the end with hand keyboard

Alex triggers synth chord during syncopated middle section after guitar solo

 

Animate

Geddy triggers all synth phrases

Neil triggers assorted percussion (tambourine, ethnic drums)

 

Subdivisions

Alex triggers "Subdivisions" vocal sample, foot pedal bass during keyboard solos

 

Earthshine

Geddy and Alex trigger various sampled vocal phrases sung by Geddy

 

Red Barchetta

Geddy plays synth notes on foot keyboard

 

Roll The Bones

Neil triggers main synth chord (throughout song) using the "Dauz" trigger next to his snare drum, also the two organ chords just before the funky "We go out in the world and take our chances" using the midiKat

Geddy triggers the rap phrases (divided into two parts)

Alex triggers "Because We're Here" at the end of the song

 

Bravado

Geddy triggers all synth phrases

 

Yyz

Geddy plays the keyboard melody over the opening riff on the foot pedal

 

Trees

Geddy triggers birds, crickets, dogs, and frogs at the end

Neil triggers temple blocks using the V-Drums (I miss the real things here too)

 

The Seeker

Geddy triggers backing vocals

 

One Little Victory

Alex triggers "Ah-ha's"

Geddy triggers various backing vocal parts, arpeggiated rhythm guitar parts

 

That's the first set.

 

Second Set:

 

Tom Sawyer

Geddy triggers main TS synth sound (used to be Alex)

Alex plays foot pedal bass during keyboard solos

 

Dreamline

Not sure who triggers the bus, think it's Neil because he counts off during it

Geddy triggers synth phrases and audio events (whirly sound after "Far away from her home town")

Alex triggers "We are young"

 

Secret Touch

Geddy triggers backing vocals

Alex triggers "You can never break the chain" that he lip synchs

 

Between the Wheels

Geddy triggers all synth parts

 

Mystic Rhythms

Neil triggers all percussion sounds

Geddy triggers all synth parts and backwards guitar phrases (new this tour)

Alex uses his new fancy schmancy PRS semi hollw guitar for acoustic and electric guitar sounds (similar to the red one used for Natural Science, which is a solid body)

 

Red Sector A

Neil triggers "Simmons" drum samples, V-Drums

 

Drum Solo

Neil triggers everything

 

Resist

Duh

 

Heart Full of Soul

See Resist

 

2112

Neil triggers synth tone after the first "Bah-dump," V-Drum above floor toms

Geddy triggers "Attention all planets of the Solar Federation"

 

La Villa

Geddy used to play notes with chord changes during main Strangiato theme, no longer, bass notes during guitar solo

 

By-Tor

Geddy triggers the By-Tor sound (rumbly bass through Wah wah, sampled from the album)

 

Xanadu

Geddy plays synth tones during intro, triggers 12 string electric guitar chords during guitar solo- new to this tour (he used to play the part on the 12 string neck of his double neck with bass notes on the Taurus pedals, when he still played the double neck live)

Neil triggers wind chimes, thunder

 

Working Man

just guitar, bass, and drums

 

Summertime Blues

Geddy triggers all backing vocals

Alex triggers guitar feedback during his "solo" at the end of the first verse

 

Crossroads

guitar, bass, and drums only

 

Limelight

Geddy triggers synths during intro, guitar solo, and choruses

 

Good night.

 

 

A "swish" cymbal is a Zildjian cymbal. It has a standard cup and a flanged edge like a chinese cymbal. The swish is kind of gongy but with a hint of chinese twang. Neil used a swish in addition to Wuhan Chinese cymbals made in China (which have larger flanges and trapezoidal shaped cups) until switching to Sabian and designing the Paragon line. The Paragons are basically revamped Avedis Zildjians only made by Sabian (which is a related company and another, different long story- which can be found in the threads here). The 20" Paragon China is like a swish, the 19" Paragon China is like a Wuhan.

Edited August 14, 2005 by CygnusX-1Bk2

[GhostGirl]

Cyg...would you PLEASE start paying attention when you go to shows?

 

[Shranexis0]

Yeah, I've never been to a Rush concert before, never seen a music video, and know absolutely nothing except what I've heard. I think this'll end up a very long thread because I have so many questions. I'll try to take it one song at a time.

 

About Geddy's Moog.

1) When you say "trigger," does that mean he flicks the switch (a pedal) and the sample plays on its own?

2) Doesn't he play some of the synth on his guitar strings?

 

I'm gonna separate their synth music into sections and ask about the first one, which is 2112 to Moving Pictures. There's usually a main pad or drone in the background of a single bass note, and the same note 2 octaves above it. It's in Red Barchetta, and a lot of the synth stuff from Kings and Hemispheres (came after The Trees on ATWAStage, not sure if it was Xanadu or an outro, but it was E-major with a bunch of bell trees and wood blocks.)

 

You said Alex makes those with his feet. So,

1) How do they switch between the regular bass note, and the regular bass note with the octaved note on top of it?

2) When they have these "drone notes," is there a different pedal for each note, or are they put in some specified order everytime the foot kicks the pedal? (For Limelight, Barchetta, Natural Science, Freewill, YYZ)

 

Don't want to drain you with all these questions, but I'll just ask a few about the songs:

 

Spirit Of Radio

If Geddy's trigger is that staccato thing that sounds like a high-pitched muted guitar, does that sample set the tempo for Neil, or does Geddy make it follow Neil's tempo?

 

Subdivisions

Is ALL the synth in this song fingered on keyboard, including the non-bass-guitar bassline and the synth lead after "Restless dream of youth"?

 

Red Sector A

Are the Synthpad line and the synth bass line both played on keyboard or pedal by geddy? Since the synth bassline is repeated 16th-notes, how does Geddy play the 16th notes, or if they're automatic, how does Neil keep his tempo insync with them?

 

New World Man

How do they pull off the second synth bass line that starts off the song?

 

Distant Early Warning

Who plays the opening and closing stinger? How does Geddy play the synthbass and synthorgan on the prechorus? How do they do those "bells" on the chorus that go D-A-D-A over and over?

 

Between the Wheels

How? Oh, and does Alex have a 7-string guitar or what on that song?

 

What I basically don't understand is what exactly the steps are once someone kicks a Taurus pedal for the sound to come out. Thanks for clearing a lot up for me!

 

EDIT: I'm totally confused about the China cymbals. What's the difference between a Wuhan and a Swish and the regular old cymbals he used? Can you give me examples in songs?

Edited August 15, 2005 by Shranexis0

[RushRevisited]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Aug 14 2005, 03:28 AM)

Geddy's pedals: These days Geddy uses a couple Roland midi pedal keyboard controllers to trigger Roland samplers. His hand keyboards also trigger samplers and various synth modules. All of his keyboards are used as remote keyboard controllers using midi. Doctor Robert Moog (pronounced Mogue) created the first commercially availble synthesizer, the Moog synthesizer. It was a huge patchbay sort of thing that the player had to literally "patch" oscillators, resonators and filters using patch cables. This is where the term "patch" for synthesizer tones comes from. The second Moog synth ever built can be heard on the Beatles Abbey Road album. The mini Moog was a small self contained unit with a minimal keyboard (I think only 2 octaves). Geddy used this from around 2112 through Hemispheres. Moog also made Taurus pedals, which were initially used for bass notes when Geddy played the 12 string on his double neck (Passage to Bangkok, Xanadu). They later used higher notes to fill out their sound (all over Hemispheres, Permanent Waves, and Moving Pictures). With Permanent Waves came the first version of midi and synths began to be tied together and communicating with each other. The Taurus pedals were midi-fied and began to trigger sounds from other synths and sequencers, which has evolved over the years into the way they use them today. Rush probably uses midi to the most advantage over most any other band. The electric drums you mention are all different triggers. ddrum makes "brains" which, like V-Drums, has a boat load of sampled drum and percussion sounds to choose from. Though Neil too uses samplers in addition to his current V-Drum brain. The first real electric drum kits were made by Simmons in the early 1980's. The first electronic drum I remember hearing about, when I was around 11 (mid to late 70's) was the SynDrum and then another called the Synare. Both were very cheesy self contained drum trigger and synth units with very limited capability. Synares can be heard on the early Cars records (Just What I Needed for example) or Rock and Roll Fantasy by Bad Co (though that could be SynDrums). V-Drums are probably the best sounding and most sophisticated electronic drum system available today, followed closely by ddrum. "Fortunately I always keep my feathers numbered for just such an occasion." Fohorn Leghorn Here is my controversial list of "who does what" for the R30 tour, from my notes of careful observation. Like it or not, agree with it or not go right ahead. Their show is extremely sophisticated and pushes the technological boundries. Spirit of Radio Geddy triggers the sequenced melody during "Invisible airwaves..." Alex plays the foot pedal bass line during this part as well Neil uses the midiKAT for the sampled glockenspiel (I miss the real thing) Force Ten Neil triggers jack hammer (Roland V-Drum pad above floor toms) and percusion sound (foot pedal) Geddy triggers choral "ah's", wacky ascending synthesizer phrases with foot keyboard, funky bass part towards the end with hand keyboard Alex triggers synth chord during syncopated middle section after guitar solo Animate Geddy triggers all synth phrases Neil triggers assorted percussion (tambourine, ethnic drums) Subdivisions Alex triggers "Subdivisions" vocal sample, foot pedal bass during keyboard solos Earthshine Geddy and Alex trigger various sampled vocal phrases sung by Geddy Red Barchetta Geddy plays synth notes on foot keyboard Roll The Bones Neil triggers main synth chord (throughout song) using the "Dauz" trigger next to his snare drum, also the two organ chords just before the funky "We go out in the world and take our chances" using the midiKat Geddy triggers the rap phrases (divided into two parts) Alex triggers "Because We're Here" at the end of the song Bravado Geddy triggers all synth phrases Yyz Geddy plays the keyboard melody over the opening riff on the foot pedal Trees Geddy triggers birds, crickets, dogs, and frogs at the end Neil triggers temple blocks using the V-Drums (I miss the real things here too) The Seeker Geddy triggers backing vocals One Little Victory Alex triggers "Ah-ha's" Geddy triggers various backing vocal parts, arpeggiated rhythm guitar parts That's the first set. Second Set: Tom Sawyer Geddy triggers main TS synth sound (used to be Alex) Alex plays foot pedal bass during keyboard solos Dreamline Not sure who triggers the bus, think it's Neil because he counts off during it Geddy triggers synth phrases and audio events (whirly sound after "Far away from her home town") Alex triggers "We are young" Secret Touch Geddy triggers backing vocals Alex triggers "You can never break the chain" that he lip synchs Between the Wheels Geddy triggers all synth parts Mystic Rhythms Neil triggers all percussion sounds Geddy triggers all synth parts and backwards guitar phrases (new this tour) Alex uses his new fancy schmancy PRS semi hollw guitar for acoustic and electric guitar sounds (similar to the red one used for Natural Science, which is a solid body) Red Sector A Neil triggers "Simmons" drum samples, V-Drums Drum Solo Neil triggers everything Resist Duh Heart Full of Soul See Resist 2112 Neil triggers synth tone after the first "Bah-dump," V-Drum above floor toms Geddy triggers "Attention all planets of the Solar Federation" La Villa Geddy used to play notes with chord changes during main Strangiato theme, no longer, bass notes during guitar solo By-Tor Geddy triggers the By-Tor sound (rumbly bass through Wah wah, sampled from the album) Xanadu Geddy plays synth tones during intro, triggers 12 string electric guitar chords during guitar solo- new to this tour (he used to play the part on the 12 string neck of his double neck with bass notes on the Taurus pedals, when he still played the double neck live) Neil triggers wind chimes, thunder Working Man just guitar, bass, and drums Summertime Blues Geddy triggers all backing vocals Alex triggers guitar feedback during his "solo" at the end of the first verse Crossroads guitar, bass, and drums only Limelight Geddy triggers synths during intro, guitar solo, and choruses Good night. A "swish" cymbal is a Zildjian cymbal. It has a standard cup and a flanged edge like a chinese cymbal. The swish is kind of gongy but with a hint of chinese twang. Neil used a swish in addition to Wuhan Chinese cymbals made in China (which have larger flanges and trapezoidal shaped cups) until switching to Sabian and designing the Paragon line. The Paragons are basically revamped Avedis Zildjians only made by Sabian (which is a related company and another, different long story- which can be found in the threads here). The 20" Paragon China is like a swish, the 19" Paragon China is like a Wuhan.

Man, you're good...

[Pags]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Aug 14 2005, 03:28 AM)

Geddy's pedals: These days Geddy uses a couple Roland midi pedal keyboard controllers to trigger Roland samplers. His hand keyboards also trigger samplers and various synth modules. All of his keyboards are used as remote keyboard controllers using midi. Doctor Robert Moog (pronounced Mogue) created the first commercially availble synthesizer, the Moog synthesizer. It was a huge patchbay sort of thing that the player had to literally "patch" oscillators, resonators and filters using patch cables. This is where the term "patch" for synthesizer tones comes from. The second Moog synth ever built can be heard on the Beatles Abbey Road album. The mini Moog was a small self contained unit with a minimal keyboard (I think only 2 octaves). Geddy used this from around 2112 through Hemispheres. Moog also made Taurus pedals, which were initially used for bass notes when Geddy played the 12 string on his double neck (Passage to Bangkok, Xanadu). They later used higher notes to fill out their sound (all over Hemispheres, Permanent Waves, and Moving Pictures). With Permanent Waves came the first version of midi and synths began to be tied together and communicating with each other. The Taurus pedals were midi-fied and began to trigger sounds from other synths and sequencers, which has evolved over the years into the way they use them today. Rush probably uses midi to the most advantage over most any other band. The electric drums you mention are all different triggers. ddrum makes "brains" which, like V-Drums, has a boat load of sampled drum and percussion sounds to choose from. Though Neil too uses samplers in addition to his current V-Drum brain. The first real electric drum kits were made by Simmons in the early 1980's. The first electronic drum I remember hearing about, when I was around 11 (mid to late 70's) was the SynDrum and then another called the Synare. Both were very cheesy self contained drum trigger and synth units with very limited capability. Synares can be heard on the early Cars records (Just What I Needed for example) or Rock and Roll Fantasy by Bad Co (though that could be SynDrums). V-Drums are probably the best sounding and most sophisticated electronic drum system available today, followed closely by ddrum. "Fortunately I always keep my feathers numbered for just such an occasion." Fohorn Leghorn Here is my controversial list of "who does what" for the R30 tour, from my notes of careful observation. Like it or not, agree with it or not go right ahead. Their show is extremely sophisticated and pushes the technological boundries. Spirit of Radio Geddy triggers the sequenced melody during "Invisible airwaves..." Alex plays the foot pedal bass line during this part as well Neil uses the midiKAT for the sampled glockenspiel (I miss the real thing) Force Ten Neil triggers jack hammer (Roland V-Drum pad above floor toms) and percusion sound (foot pedal) Geddy triggers choral "ah's", wacky ascending synthesizer phrases with foot keyboard, funky bass part towards the end with hand keyboard Alex triggers synth chord during syncopated middle section after guitar solo Animate Geddy triggers all synth phrases Neil triggers assorted percussion (tambourine, ethnic drums) Subdivisions Alex triggers "Subdivisions" vocal sample, foot pedal bass during keyboard solos Earthshine Geddy and Alex trigger various sampled vocal phrases sung by Geddy Red Barchetta Geddy plays synth notes on foot keyboard Roll The Bones Neil triggers main synth chord (throughout song) using the "Dauz" trigger next to his snare drum, also the two organ chords just before the funky "We go out in the world and take our chances" using the midiKat Geddy triggers the rap phrases (divided into two parts) Alex triggers "Because We're Here" at the end of the song Bravado Geddy triggers all synth phrases Yyz Geddy plays the keyboard melody over the opening riff on the foot pedal Trees Geddy triggers birds, crickets, dogs, and frogs at the end Neil triggers temple blocks using the V-Drums (I miss the real things here too) The Seeker Geddy triggers backing vocals One Little Victory Alex triggers "Ah-ha's" Geddy triggers various backing vocal parts, arpeggiated rhythm guitar parts That's the first set. Second Set: Tom Sawyer Geddy triggers main TS synth sound (used to be Alex) Alex plays foot pedal bass during keyboard solos Dreamline Not sure who triggers the bus, think it's Neil because he counts off during it Geddy triggers synth phrases and audio events (whirly sound after "Far away from her home town") Alex triggers "We are young" Secret Touch Geddy triggers backing vocals Alex triggers "You can never break the chain" that he lip synchs Between the Wheels Geddy triggers all synth parts Mystic Rhythms Neil triggers all percussion sounds Geddy triggers all synth parts and backwards guitar phrases (new this tour) Alex uses his new fancy schmancy PRS semi hollw guitar for acoustic and electric guitar sounds (similar to the red one used for Natural Science, which is a solid body) Red Sector A Neil triggers "Simmons" drum samples, V-Drums Drum Solo Neil triggers everything Resist Duh Heart Full of Soul See Resist 2112 Neil triggers synth tone after the first "Bah-dump," V-Drum above floor toms Geddy triggers "Attention all planets of the Solar Federation" La Villa Geddy used to play notes with chord changes during main Strangiato theme, no longer, bass notes during guitar solo By-Tor Geddy triggers the By-Tor sound (rumbly bass through Wah wah, sampled from the album) Xanadu Geddy plays synth tones during intro, triggers 12 string electric guitar chords during guitar solo- new to this tour (he used to play the part on the 12 string neck of his double neck with bass notes on the Taurus pedals, when he still played the double neck live) Neil triggers wind chimes, thunder Working Man just guitar, bass, and drums Summertime Blues Geddy triggers all backing vocals Alex triggers guitar feedback during his "solo" at the end of the first verse Crossroads guitar, bass, and drums only Limelight Geddy triggers synths during intro, guitar solo, and choruses Good night. A "swish" cymbal is a Zildjian cymbal. It has a standard cup and a flanged edge like a chinese cymbal. The swish is kind of gongy but with a hint of chinese twang. Neil used a swish in addition to Wuhan Chinese cymbals made in China (which have larger flanges and trapezoidal shaped cups) until switching to Sabian and designing the Paragon line. The Paragons are basically revamped Avedis Zildjians only made by Sabian (which is a related company and another, different long story- which can be found in the threads here). The 20" Paragon China is like a swish, the 19" Paragon China is like a Wuhan.

This is unbelievable!!

 

Thanks!!

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

Yeah, I've never been to a Rush concert before, never seen a music video, and know absolutely nothing except what I've heard. I think this'll end up a very long thread because I have so many questions. I'll try to take it one song at a time. About Geddy's Moog. 1) When you say "trigger," does that mean he flicks the switch (a pedal) and the sample plays on its own? 2) Doesn't he play some of the synth on his guitar strings?

A trigger is anything that transmits an electronic pulse or signal that can be interpreted by another device. A drum pad, keyboard key, a microphone, etc. The samples are stored in the samplers to be played (triggered) at will. Several years ago their main keyboard tech Tony Geranios sampled tones, phrases and "events" from the original recordings to be triggered from the stage.

To my knowledge Rush do not use guitar synthesizers. For Hemispheres Alex used the Roland guitar synth which was a standard guitar with extra tonal capabilities, but it was nowhere near like what one can do these days with infrared midi guitar pickups sent to tone modules or samplers.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

I'm gonna separate their synth music into sections and ask about the first one, which is 2112 to Moving Pictures. There's usually a main pad or drone in the background of a single bass note, and the same note 2 octaves above it. It's in Red Barchetta, and a lot of the synth stuff from Kings and Hemispheres (came after The Trees on ATWAStage, not sure if it was Xanadu or an outro, but it was E-major with a bunch of bell trees and wood blocks.)

This sounds like octave "stacking" which is fairly standard. I have a Roland PK-5 that has an octave stacking capability, though the notes are only one octave apart. The Trees into Xanadu (with Broon's Bane) are "Side 3" of Exit Stage Left. There are a variety of ways to achieve this and I am not sure how they did it exactly. Either one pedal was triggering two different synths, or both Geddy and Alex are playing the same note in different octaves, or it is a feature of the Taurus pedals.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

You said Alex makes those with his feet. So, 1) How do they switch between the regular bass note, and the regular bass note with the octaved note on top of it? 2) When they have these "drone notes," is there a different pedal for each note, or are they put in some specified order everytime the foot kicks the pedal? (For Limelight, Barchetta, Natural Science, Freewill, YYZ)

Good question! For live shows they seem to split many duties. I have discovered that they have traded duties for certain things as well. The Taurus pedals were their own synthesizer, so the keys were the notes played. Somewhere in the early 90's or late 80's things changed because of the advancement of midi. Some of the sampled vocals triggered by Geddy were set up so that they were triggered by consecutive pedals rather than the notes on the keyboard they represent. For example take Cold Fire, which was only played on the Counterparts tour. Every vocal phrase in the chorus was triggered by a foot pedal on the keyboard. The first phrase was set to the "C" key, the next was "D" and so on and so forth. "C" no longer had to be a "C" note (pitch). They took this and applied it to synth phrases so the phrase A was the C note and phrase B was the D note and so on. This changes the floor keyboard controller from being and octave of notes to 13 triggers or either or both. This is quite a liberating thought really. Limelight for example was originally done as the notes of the keyboard, but these days Geddy steps on different pedals for different chord phrases and if I was paying proper attention they were not necessarily chords that correspond to the note played. In other words the B note was actually a B note, but the F# note was not an F# chord, if that makes any sense.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

Don't want to drain you with all these questions, but I'll just ask a few about the songs: Spirit Of Radio If Geddy's trigger is that staccato thing that sounds like a high-pitched muted guitar, does that sample set the tempo for Neil, or does Geddy make it follow Neil's tempo?

Another good question, to which I do not really have a decent answer. This part was originally played by a hardware sequencer. I am sure that in 1980 there was no way for the tempo to follow a human trigger so the conclusion is that they followed the tempo of the sequencer. Today things are different. There was a device made in the late 80's called the Human Clock mad by Kahler which would transmit midi tempo data based on a mic or pulse input. These are rare and hard to find but I am sure that they have used a similar technolgy considering their show.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

Subdivisions Is ALL the synth in this song fingered on keyboard, including the non-bass-guitar bassline and the synth lead after "Restless dream of youth"?

Geddy plays the main synth parts on a hand keyboard. During the keyboard solo melodies Alex plays a synth bass part using pedals.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

Red Sector A Are the Synthpad line and the synth bass line both played on keyboard or pedal by geddy? Since the synth bassline is repeated 16th-notes, how does Geddy play the 16th notes, or if they're automatic, how does Neil keep his tempo insync with them?

The 16th notes for the bass line are generated most likely by the synth's arpeggiator. This is a standard synth feature. If you watch the Grace Under Pressure video you can see Neil wearing headphones during this song. The bass note starts the song live so we can assume Neil is following the tempo of the bass notes.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

New World Man How do they pull off the second synth bass line that starts off the song?

Early on this was done by a sequencer which generates it's own tempo and Neil would follow (again with headphones on stage) but these days it is the sample from the actual recording. With in-ear monitors (headphones) this is easily followed for tempo.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

Distant Early Warning Who plays the opening and closing stinger? How does Geddy play the synthbass and synthorgan on the prechorus? How do they do those "bells" on the chorus that go D-A-D-A over and over?

All good questions. Don't know who triggers the beginning. Could be any of them. The Wave PPG synth was the bell sounding synth. The repetitious notes could be a sequencer, not sure if these are part of the live version. There are times when not every sound for every song can be done so there are some corner cutting measures on occasion. They do go to painstaking lengths to be as accurate to the recordings as possible but they can only do so much.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

Between the Wheels How? Oh, and does Alex have a 7-string guitar or what on that song?

No. No 7 string guitars, no 6 string basses.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

What I basically don't understand is what exactly the steps are once someone kicks a Taurus pedal for the sound to come out. Thanks for clearing a lot up for me!

The Taurus pedals were a self contained synthesizer. Step on a pedal and the note comes out, all dependent upon how the synth was set to sound. With midi foot pedals the pedal keyboard is connected to tone modules and/or samplers using midi. Step on a pedal and what ever you have programmed to be triggered will be.

 

QUOTE (Shranexis0 @ Aug 14 2005, 07:42 PM)

EDIT: I'm totally confused about the China cymbals. What's the difference between a Wuhan and a Swish and the regular old cymbals he used? Can you give me examples in songs?

 

Zildjian swish

http://www.jam.se/images/azildjian18swish.jpg

 

Wuhan China

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002F4MKM.01-AIMZUKBRH6H15._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

 

Paragon 20" and 19" chinese

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/44/446543.jpg

 

The Paragon 20" china is based on a Zildjian Swish and the 19" is based on Wuhan chinas. Wuhans are very sharp and trashy. Swishes have more sustain with a taste of trash. The wuhan's are very common in Neil's playing. Natural Science the chinese are used to accent the down beats of the 7/8 measures during Hyperspace. Also at the end of Tom Sawyer in a similar fashion. He uses the swish for cymbal swells in Xanadu (watching the ESL video).

Edited August 15, 2005 by CygnusX-1Bk2

[sullysue]

This info. is excellent, Cyg. I love learning about all of the technical angles of Rush's sound. Thanks for being so damned educated on this stuff. Good thread, too, Shran! Keep the questions coming. I'm facsinated.

 

 

-SS

[endlesslymocking]

After reading all this amazing information I have one question.

 

How do you know all this stuff Cyg?

 

 

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

QUOTE (endlesslymocking @ Aug 15 2005, 10:05 AM)

After reading all this amazing information I have one question. How do you know all this stuff Cyg?

Pick one of the following:

 

1. Amazing powers of observation

 

2. I need to get a life

 

3. I am full of shit

 

4. Years of experience

 

5. Any combination of these

 

 

[sullysue]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Aug 15 2005, 01:11 PM)

QUOTE (endlesslymocking @ Aug 15 2005, 10:05 AM) After reading all this amazing information  I have one question. How do you know all this stuff Cyg? Pick one of the following:   1. Amazing powers of observation   2. I need to get a life   3. I am full of shit   4. Years of experience   5. Any combination of these It damned well better be numbers 1 and 4. I need to know before I go around spouting off all of this stuff. I don't need help looking like a dumbass!

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Well, I am a lifelong musician and currently work in the audio industry. I work with audio technology on a daily basis.

[Dweezil]

Psych!!!

 

 

*if one paid attention, they could see that Mr. CygnusX-1Bk2 knows his stuff and is a talented musician.

[Digital Man]

QUOTE (sullysue @ Aug 15 2005, 10:58 AM)

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Aug 15 2005, 01:11 PM) QUOTE (endlesslymocking @ Aug 15 2005, 10:05 AM) After reading all this amazing information  I have one question. How do you know all this stuff Cyg? Pick one of the following:   1. Amazing powers of observation   2. I need to get a life   3. I am full of shit   4. Years of experience   5. Any combination of these It damned well better be numbers 1 and 4. I need to know before I go around spouting off all of this stuff. I don't need help looking like a dumbass! You got it Sully, definitely 1 & 4. Cyg knows his s**t. I've seen him explain it & also play it.   Don't get me worng, he's got some #3 in him, just not when it comes to his music.

[sullysue]

QUOTE (Digital Man @ Aug 15 2005, 05:16 PM)

QUOTE (sullysue @ Aug 15 2005, 10:58 AM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Aug 15 2005, 01:11 PM) QUOTE (endlesslymocking @ Aug 15 2005, 10:05 AM) After reading all this amazing information  I have one question. How do you know all this stuff Cyg? Pick one of the following:   1. Amazing powers of observation   2. I need to get a life   3. I am full of shit   4. Years of experience   5. Any combination of these It damned well better be numbers 1 and 4. I need to know before I go around spouting off all of this stuff. I don't need help looking like a dumbass! You got it Sully, definitely 1 & 4. Cyg knows his s**t. I've seen him explain it & also play it.   Don't get me worng, he's got some #3 in him, just not when it comes to his music. I certainly know he's knowledgeable. Nothing but the utmost respect, Cyg. I really am enjoying the info. I sincerely want to know more about music from the technological standpoint. I LOVE coming into these threads and reading up on this sort of thing. So, thanks, Cyg.

[boz69]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Aug 15 2005, 01:11 PM)

QUOTE (endlesslymocking @ Aug 15 2005, 10:05 AM) After reading all this amazing information  I have one question. How do you know all this stuff Cyg? Pick one of the following:   1. Amazing powers of observation   2. I need to get a life   3. I am full of shit   4. Years of experience   5. Any combination of these All of the above....         Who cut the cheese????   I think it was Alex!!!

[tangy]

[sullysue]

[Modest Man From Mandrake]

Wow this thread is pretty awesome. I've recieved an education for sure.

[Shranexis0]

OK, I'm back. And I've got more questions!

 

First, about the Chinas.

 

Whenever Neil goes into his ride-trash-ride-trash such as in the beginning and ending choruses of Between Sun And Moon" and the outro of Subdivisions, that's a Wuhan right?

 

I've never heard the whole album of A Show Of Hands, but in that album's version of Mystic Rhythms, the one that's so famous, does Neil have two Wuhans in his set?

 

Are the trashes in the chorus of Limelight and the soft outro of Red Barchetta swishes?

 

Second, about the synth.

 

Thanks so much for explaining the pedals! I'm still curious to know how the pedals are arranged. How many?

 

Oh, here's a big question. There's a lot of sampling in Power Windows. On the intro to The Big Money, it goes like this:

 

CRASH!...Dm........Synthsnare!.....Dm...Dm......4-agogos....Synth....guitar plays a couple strings, repeat.

 

In that section, is the synth part fingered? And also, on the section after this, the second part of the intro right before Stanza 1, there are two or three samples that play on 16th notes, like the one that grows into a crescendo right before "duh nuh nuh, duh nuh nuh, duh, big money goes around the world". How do they pull those off and keep the time? Do the 3 guys just follow its rhythm?

 

Third, about the drums.

 

Power Windows, Manhattan Project, Red Tide

Is that weird sustained CLAP!-sounding snare triggered on the synthdrum mounted above Neil's bass drum, or where?

 

The Pass

After a couple of toms on the intro, there's a wooden KEK sound with a little bit of sustain. Is that triggered on the dauz pad?

 

Distant Early Warning

Is that breath-like sound in the second stanza after "cruising under your radar" and "watching from the satellites (?)" triggered by the Dauz Pad? (It sounds similar to the Usher-Yeah song where Little John got whatever to make your booty go *THIS SOUND RIGHT HERE*)

 

Mystic Rhythms (A Show Of Hands)

I've never seen the video, I only have the version on Chronicles, and I'm guessing that Neil has TWO African drums programmed into his synth pads? Which synth pads does he use for those, and where are they?

 

Also, in the Rhythms sequence (Doom......Doom..TrashTrash..KEK!), what's the KEK? Another dauz pad trigger? Or a wood block?

 

What's the MidiKat again, and where is it in Neil's drumset?

 

Is the Dauz pad mounted or connected to Neil's hihat or midi keyboard?

 

What is Neil's synth-drum arrangement in his Power Windows set?

 

When does Neil use his second closed hihat (the Vapor Trails/30th Ann one) with the splash on top?

 

One last question, on Between the Wheels, and several of the other songs from Grace, Geddy's and Alex's guitars hit notes below low E (D and C). I guess they just have drop-D tunings or something? Or maybe I'm just confusing the guitar with the bass.

 

Wow, what an overload of questions. I'll probably take another month break before I ask anymore. I really appreciate the explanations, though!

[tepes22b]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Aug 14 2005, 02:28 AM)

Geddy's pedals: These days Geddy uses a couple Roland midi pedal keyboard controllers to trigger Roland samplers. His hand keyboards also trigger samplers and various synth modules. All of his keyboards are used as remote keyboard controllers using midi. Doctor Robert Moog (pronounced Mogue) created the first commercially availble synthesizer, the Moog synthesizer. It was a huge patchbay sort of thing that the player had to literally "patch" oscillators, resonators and filters using patch cables. This is where the term "patch" for synthesizer tones comes from. The second Moog synth ever built can be heard on the Beatles Abbey Road album. The mini Moog was a small self contained unit with a minimal keyboard (I think only 2 octaves). Geddy used this from around 2112 through Hemispheres. Moog also made Taurus pedals, which were initially used for bass notes when Geddy played the 12 string on his double neck (Passage to Bangkok, Xanadu). They later used higher notes to fill out their sound (all over Hemispheres, Permanent Waves, and Moving Pictures). With Permanent Waves came the first version of midi and synths began to be tied together and communicating with each other. The Taurus pedals were midi-fied and began to trigger sounds from other synths and sequencers, which has evolved over the years into the way they use them today. Rush probably uses midi to the most advantage over most any other band. The electric drums you mention are all different triggers. ddrum makes "brains" which, like V-Drums, has a boat load of sampled drum and percussion sounds to choose from. Though Neil too uses samplers in addition to his current V-Drum brain. The first real electric drum kits were made by Simmons in the early 1980's. The first electronic drum I remember hearing about, when I was around 11 (mid to late 70's) was the SynDrum and then another called the Synare. Both were very cheesy self contained drum trigger and synth units with very limited capability. Synares can be heard on the early Cars records (Just What I Needed for example) or Rock and Roll Fantasy by Bad Co (though that could be SynDrums). V-Drums are probably the best sounding and most sophisticated electronic drum system available today, followed closely by ddrum. "Fortunately I always keep my feathers numbered for just such an occasion." Fohorn Leghorn Here is my controversial list of "who does what" for the R30 tour, from my notes of careful observation. Like it or not, agree with it or not go right ahead. Their show is extremely sophisticated and pushes the technological boundries. Spirit of Radio Geddy triggers the sequenced melody during "Invisible airwaves..." Alex plays the foot pedal bass line during this part as well Neil uses the midiKAT for the sampled glockenspiel (I miss the real thing) Force Ten Neil triggers jack hammer (Roland V-Drum pad above floor toms) and percusion sound (foot pedal) Geddy triggers choral "ah's", wacky ascending synthesizer phrases with foot keyboard, funky bass part towards the end with hand keyboard Alex triggers synth chord during syncopated middle section after guitar solo Animate Geddy triggers all synth phrases Neil triggers assorted percussion (tambourine, ethnic drums) Subdivisions Alex triggers "Subdivisions" vocal sample, foot pedal bass during keyboard solos Earthshine Geddy and Alex trigger various sampled vocal phrases sung by Geddy Red Barchetta Geddy plays synth notes on foot keyboard Roll The Bones Neil triggers main synth chord (throughout song) using the "Dauz" trigger next to his snare drum, also the two organ chords just before the funky "We go out in the world and take our chances" using the midiKat Geddy triggers the rap phrases (divided into two parts) Alex triggers "Because We're Here" at the end of the song Bravado Geddy triggers all synth phrases Yyz Geddy plays the keyboard melody over the opening riff on the foot pedal Trees Geddy triggers birds, crickets, dogs, and frogs at the end Neil triggers temple blocks using the V-Drums (I miss the real things here too) The Seeker Geddy triggers backing vocals One Little Victory Alex triggers "Ah-ha's" Geddy triggers various backing vocal parts, arpeggiated rhythm guitar parts That's the first set. Second Set: Tom Sawyer Geddy triggers main TS synth sound (used to be Alex) Alex plays foot pedal bass during keyboard solos Dreamline Not sure who triggers the bus, think it's Neil because he counts off during it Geddy triggers synth phrases and audio events (whirly sound after "Far away from her home town") Alex triggers "We are young" Secret Touch Geddy triggers backing vocals Alex triggers "You can never break the chain" that he lip synchs Between the Wheels Geddy triggers all synth parts Mystic Rhythms Neil triggers all percussion sounds Geddy triggers all synth parts and backwards guitar phrases (new this tour) Alex uses his new fancy schmancy PRS semi hollw guitar for acoustic and electric guitar sounds (similar to the red one used for Natural Science, which is a solid body) Red Sector A Neil triggers "Simmons" drum samples, V-Drums Drum Solo Neil triggers everything Resist Duh Heart Full of Soul See Resist 2112 Neil triggers synth tone after the first "Bah-dump," V-Drum above floor toms Geddy triggers "Attention all planets of the Solar Federation" La Villa Geddy used to play notes with chord changes during main Strangiato theme, no longer, bass notes during guitar solo By-Tor Geddy triggers the By-Tor sound (rumbly bass through Wah wah, sampled from the album) Xanadu Geddy plays synth tones during intro, triggers 12 string electric guitar chords during guitar solo- new to this tour (he used to play the part on the 12 string neck of his double neck with bass notes on the Taurus pedals, when he still played the double neck live) Neil triggers wind chimes, thunder Working Man just guitar, bass, and drums Summertime Blues Geddy triggers all backing vocals Alex triggers guitar feedback during his "solo" at the end of the first verse Crossroads guitar, bass, and drums only Limelight Geddy triggers synths during intro, guitar solo, and choruses Good night. A "swish" cymbal is a Zildjian cymbal. It has a standard cup and a flanged edge like a chinese cymbal. The swish is kind of gongy but with a hint of chinese twang. Neil used a swish in addition to Wuhan Chinese cymbals made in China (which have larger flanges and trapezoidal shaped cups) until switching to Sabian and designing the Paragon line. The Paragons are basically revamped Avedis Zildjians only made by Sabian (which is a related company and another, different long story- which can be found in the threads here). The 20" Paragon China is like a swish, the 19" Paragon China is like a Wuhan.

[launchpad67a]

Hey Cyg I have a question dating back to your long list of events.

Why would any of the guys need to trigger so many things during the show? Nearly the entire show is sequenced and all the sounds could be or are part of the sequences. I mean my band runs about half our show on sequences and I built our sequences with everything in them, so it takes the load off the band. I know...we're not Rush and don't have nearly the amount of sounds to reproduce live. But the amount of samples is irrelevant if you include them all in a pre-recorded track, right?

I would think they would approach live shows this way. Just a question.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

I agree that using sequencers is much easier and in our Rush tribute we do rely on them for several tunes.

However, according to Brad Mattix, the FOH mixer for the last two tours, as well as Howard Ungerlieder (in two different interviews) claimed that they no longer sequence anything to keep the show completely live. Another interview with Geddy he mentioned that Tony Geranios went through all of the old multitrack masters and sampled tones and "events" both to keep true to the old albums and as a way to get away from sequencers.

Another interview during the CP tour Neil mentioned that the only songs that were sequenced were Time Stand Still and Roll The Bones because they were synched to video, and also Double Agent.

I think it would be much easier for them to use sequencers, especially now that Neil is using in-ear monitors, as opposed to the bike helmet w/headphones that he didn't like to use in the past. Like I said before the list was all from my personal observations of 5 shows of the R30 tour.

In their interviews they claim to want the show to be live. One recent interview even stated that Roll the Bones was no longer sequenced, which doesn't make much sense to me because it still needs to be synched to video. But the virtual DJ who was doing the graphics on the tour said that he triggered the video for that part.

Edited October 12, 2005 by CygnusX-1Bk2

[daveyt]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Oct 12 2005, 04:32 PM)

Another interview with Geddy he mentioned that Tony Geranios went through all of the old multitrack masters and sampled tones and "events" both to keep true to the old albums and as a way to get away from sequencers.

i wish they would get the old THE SPIRIT OF RADIO sounds back

[launchpad67a]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Oct 12 2005, 02:32 PM)

I agree that using sequencers is much easier and in our Rush tribute we do rely on them for several tunes. However, according to Brad Mattix, the FOH mixer for the last two tours, as well as Howard Ungerlieder (in two different interviews) claimed that they no longer sequence anything to keep the show completely live. Another interview with Geddy he mentioned that Tony Geranios went through all of the old multitrack masters and sampled tones and "events" both to keep true to the old albums and as a way to get away from sequencers. Another interview during the CP tour Neil mentioned that the only songs that were sequenced were Time Stand Still and Roll The Bones because they were synched to video, and also Double Agent. I think it would be much easier for them to use sequencers, especially now that Neil is using in-ear monitors, as opposed to the bike helmet w/headphones that he didn't like to use in the past. Like I said before the list was all from my personal observations of 5 shows of the R30 tour. In their interviews they claim to want the show to be live. One recent interview even stated that Roll the Bones was no longer sequenced, which doesn't make much sense to me because it still needs to be synched to video. But the virtual DJ who was doing the graphics on the tour said that he triggered the video for that part.

Man I'm just not sure what to think about that. I don't see how they don't sequence anything anymore. But if your info is from the men themselves, then how can I argue. I can hear the jumps in volume live when certain pre-recorded tracks are going.

Mabey Neil just listens to a click track so the video is synched, and everything is played live?

 

Thanks for all that info though, great stuff!!