I'd argue that this virus is significantly more deadly than any other thing. Even if you don't want to say 80,000 dead in the US because of inflated numbers. I'll be generous and cut that in half. So 40,000 dead in 2 months. Houston, we have a problem. The number of increased deaths is undeniable. They are burying people in mass graves in NYC, because so many are dying. So many more than normal. What's the cause of all that death? The media shoving it down our throats? It's real buddy. And the solution isn't as simple as some guy afraid of dying staying home. Staying home is also supposed to SLOW THE VIRUS DOWN, so that it has a reduced chance to spread to the vulnerable. Until there are vaccines and treatments. People are really showing their selfish, true colors with this thing. Normally I wouldn't give a shit. But people are dying because of it. And yeah, I look forward to the day that we can safely have beer together. I'll buy the first round. No shit it's real, buddy. So is the flu. Do you react like this every year when the flu comes around and kills up to 60,000- 65,000 people? No? Why not? It's a real question you should ask yourself. You almost seem militant to anyone who doesn't completely agree with you and want to seal themselves in a cave and not come out until a vaccine is ready. That is your choice to do that. Seal yourself in. Many of the rest of us are ready to get back to normal life and would rather "take the risk". Keep yourself sealed in - and people who feel they are at risk - stay in hiding. The opening of businesses and regular life that you are so against does not affect you because you are hunkering down until there is a vaccine or the virus goes away through herd immunity. So my going out won't affect you at all. In fact you should want people to all go out while you don't and then the 60-70% herd immunity will happen for you. Maybe you are the one who is selfish, not the ones willing to "take a chance" and who want to get the economic engine of this country running again. Militant? Strong willed is more like it. I'm not being selfish by understanding the nature of the virus, understanding that it's a killer, and not wanting to be one who'd infect someone else with it. When you're taking that risk, you're not just taking that risk for yourself. You are taking that risk for everyone down the line who you'd infect. Remember that. I do notice though that no one ever directly answers the question about what lives are worth. Then you could apply that to the flu or any "dangerous thing" like driving, no? Do you drive? How can you do that when you might kill someone? I mean 38,000 lives lost every year just in the US, 1.3 million world wide. Don't you care about people? Just one life saved... How can you ever go out in the flu season again? I mean you might have it and give it to someone who is going to a nursing home to visit their mother or grandmother! Give me a f***ing break. Again - if YOU are not going out then YOU can't get the virus right? Seriously, stay the f**k indoors and away from people if you want. That is your choice. Let's talk about risk vs impact then. One of us could slip in the shower and break our necks. There's risk in everything. In that case, it would just be our necks. The death would stop there. Limited exposure. Or we could get in the car and kill ourselves or someone else. Any number of ways. Again, pretty limited exposure as tragic as it is. Nobody else outside that small circle will be impacted. The Flu. Infectious. We pass it along and the R0 is usually 1 or less. It sucks, but that's the nature of the typical flu virus. So more exposure and chance of death than the singleton events above. Fortunately we as humans have some protection in built up immunity and mostly effective vaccines. For the most part flu isn't communacable until symptoms appear in the carrier. So smart people who are sick with the flu stay home, heal up, and as a net effect limit spread to he next person. 30 something thousand dead in a year sucks, but without vaccines and immunity would be a lot worse..... like it was in the past before modern medical science and vaccines were developed for the common flu strains. Which leads us to the COVID situation: COVID 19. R0 of as high as 5.6. No built up immunity thus far. No working vaccines or treatments. High mortality rate. That R0 means that one person can potentially infect more than 5 new people. That would be ASYMPTOMATIC spread. Spreaders may not know they have it. So they just go to the beach and the bar, catch it, and spread it unaware that it's happening. Risk potential for spreading to people down the line is huge - as we've seen. We're up to 90,000 dead from COVID/related. In the US, in less than 3 months. Some would say that number is inflated. OK. let's roll with that. How inflated? Let's try to assign some percentages or values to the 'inflation categories' then come back to a 'real' COVID number. What % of the number is outright bullshit? Sources? What % of the number is medicare 'bonus' inflation? Sources? What % of the number are retroactive and thus suspect? Sources? Other categories of inaccuracy? Type. %, Hard soruce. Type. %, Hard soruce. When we have that we can then talk about 90K being an inaccurate number. I agree that the number might be inaccurate it plausable. My question is why and by how much. I certainly wouldn't want to minimize the real number of dead with hersay and gut feelings. With the motivation of slanting that number to make it appear that the virus isn't as impactful as it really is. So if we're going to say that the number isn't real, why isn't it real? Thank God people like you can't impose your will against people like me, at least not in my country. While you are sitting in your bunker running the numbers, I'll be out to dinner with my wife tonight for the first time in 10 weeks :) Go live your life in fear. I'll be enjoying my life and feeling sorry for people like you. By the way, how are the Wisconsin numbers since they opened up? Must be tens of thousands new cases daily by now with people dying in the streets right? And in Georgia, Florida, etc right? Must be like the apocalypse in those states by now. At what point do you admit that the lock down and "stay at home" orders and closure of business and all this horseshit isn't doing what you claim? :cheers: So how are we doing? 225K dead in this country alone. Are we good yet? Turning the corner? I was full of shit? How does this look from your perspective these days with all those people who are no longer here? 225K lives extinguished. 1) I f***ing said it was going to go this way. 2) we're not done yet. see ya'll at 400K by the end of the year. 3) If people like me could have imposed their will on this topic, then it would never have gotten this bad. 4) Looking forward to the snarky retort. I'll follow up on January 1 to say that it's also wrong. Hope eveyrone stays safe. 5) Yeah, I'll be here in a few years, because I'm not a dumfuck, I follow the science, and I believe in laying low so as to live for another day. Short term problems don't have to be long term issues. The numbers are absolutely inflated. Being the average death age is as high as it is and the CDC has confirmed that 94% of all deaths in the US had moderate or serious underlying conditions, how many of these 225,000 people would be dead anyway in 8 months? Are you as concerned about heart disease taking 800,000 people a year? Do you think we should mandate healthy food for all so we don't have those deaths? As I have said before, you want to be locked down and hide in your home? Go for it, but don't impose that will on me - I will not be locked down for this bullshit. Period. Your #5 - yes, friend you are a dumb f**k. An absolute dumb f**k. Go lock yourself down for the next 20 years. Please.