Prog Snobbery?

[gudbuytjane]

Yeah, it is sad that punk has become more of a restraint to creativity for some folks. A friend of mine was in a fairly well-known (for that scene) anachist punk band, and on one album they experimented with a cello and different instruments and one of the main reviews of the album criticized them for not being punk. My friend kind of threw up his hands at that point and just chose to be a musician.

 

Post-punk, though, as a genre (once again, it seems more a set of principles, but what do I know?) has some pretty interesting stuff that seems to grow on the original ethos of punk. I do think it's an awesome thing for people to feel they can make music sloppily with just three chords, but the point is that sometimes you grow past that, and there's nothing special in the original format anyway, it was the idea. Oddly, prog can be the same way—a revolutionary approach that became a set of rules.

 

It's an interesting topic. I feel like I am not expected to be a prog rock fan, and people are far more willing to listen to me talk about Riot Grrl or indie rock, even metal, because I feel like there's a presence of women there now, even if it is rare. But when I tell people my honest-to-goodness favourite band in the whole world is Rush I sometimes wonder if they believe me. I've never had a fanboy try to suggest I'm a "fake" Rush fan, haha, like seems to happen in other nerdy corners of the world (and seriously, bring it on, give me 10 minutes and I'd have him sobbing and apologizing for not being able to recite set lists from every tour ;) ).

 

Anyway, back on topic: I don't think I'm a prog snob, if anything I feel like I am a missionary for wider prog acceptance. :D

[Tony R]

I remember that interview and thought the same thing. It is not until seeing Beyond The Lighted Stage that I thought he was just being Geddy and not trying to be condescending. What changed my view?

 

When he was speaking of Kiss he gave the most back handed compliment:

 

"Say what you want about Kiss musically or otherwise, they are the hardest working band around" or something to that effect. In otherwords, they're not musically anything special but they put on a good show. Do I think Geddy was trying to put down Kiss? Not at all. I think He genuinely meant it as a compliment.

 

In the other interview he says bands are going back to basics cause all they know is the basics and that leads the band into complimenting the Talking Heads, The Police, etc. It comes across snobby but I really don't think he meant it to be. Did that make sense?

 

I am not a prog snob at all. I dig Green Day, The Ramones, AC/DC, Violent Femmes, etc. Certainly not an elitist.

 

I will, however, get into a heated argument with anybody who bashes Rush musically. They are Gods among men and will be treated as such as long as I'm around.

Chris Squire is awesome

For the first time ever I've "liked" my own comment...and I'll gladly take the heat for it—bring it in suckas!!!!

 

Isn't that like kissing your reflection?

[Tombstone Mountain]

I remember that interview and thought the same thing. It is not until seeing Beyond The Lighted Stage that I thought he was just being Geddy and not trying to be condescending. What changed my view?

 

When he was speaking of Kiss he gave the most back handed compliment:

 

"Say what you want about Kiss musically or otherwise, they are the hardest working band around" or something to that effect. In otherwords, they're not musically anything special but they put on a good show. Do I think Geddy was trying to put down Kiss? Not at all. I think He genuinely meant it as a compliment.

 

In the other interview he says bands are going back to basics cause all they know is the basics and that leads the band into complimenting the Talking Heads, The Police, etc. It comes across snobby but I really don't think he meant it to be. Did that make sense?

 

I am not a prog snob at all. I dig Green Day, The Ramones, AC/DC, Violent Femmes, etc. Certainly not an elitist.

 

I will, however, get into a heated argument with anybody who bashes Rush musically. They are Gods among men and will be treated as such as long as I'm around.

Chris Squire is awesome

For the first time ever I've "liked" my own comment...and I'll gladly take the heat for it—bring it in suckas!!!!

 

Isn't that like kissing your reflection?

I've been waiting for this response knowing how you'd feel. However I had to do it. It will be my last time ever...I promise! Dude thinks Squire's remedial. I have to chide him—it's my duty! Kenny is a great player but lacks perspective. I'm here to help a fellow bassist get it.

[Thunder Bay Rush]

I remember years ago, living in Toronto and trying to “make it” in the music biz… all of the prog guys (me included) always thought that if a song was shorten than 8 minutes and didn’t have at least 3 different time signatures in it, it was dog shit.

Then I started listening to bands like Teenage Head and The Pretenders and Gary Numan… (but not for long!)

[MMCXII]

Another thing about that old interview or another one from that era, he talks about one of his "heros" that he met and was disappointed because the guy turned out to be a drunk asshole or something, but he makes sure not to mention this persons name. Pretty classy for a young prog snob I think!

 

I do agree though about them being a little snobby back in the day but I have to excuse it when I compare them to some bands. Most prog bands were like this including Yes. In fact I think Geddy's fallen hero may have even been Chris Squire as he's often left out when Geddy cites his influences. I'm sure Squire was a big inspiration on Ged.

 

Also look what passed for music back then. punk was also big and them guys were openly uninterested in even learning how to play their instruments! Imagine how players like Rush felt sitting just outside the mainstream.. I mean they appreciate the "cult band" status now, but back then they were still trying to become popular!

[x1yyz]

In the very early 80s, after discovering Rush, I was also listening to a bunch of other prog stuff. I liked the band U.K. with drummer Terry Bozzio. Then Bozzio went off to form Missing Persons and I couldn't believe he could go from complex rhythms to a basic 3-piece set with boring 4/4 time. It hurt. Fast-forward a handful of years to when I was actually listening to new wave stuff and I finally understood why he did that.

 

Now with the wisdom(?) I've gained over the years I will happily listen to prog stuff and new wave (and metal, punk, alternative, etc.) and like them all.

[Slack jaw gaze]

It's pretty clear from what Rush is, as to what the guys in the band don't care that much for.

 

They didn't want to be a band that couldn't play very well.

They didn't want to be a cookie cutter band.

They didn't want simplistic music that would bore them to death to play every night.

They didn't want to write cliche songs about chicks, drugs, and beer.

They didn't want to be the band that yells "Let's hear you scream" or "Who is wasted?" (or whatever the current cliches are "Somebody tweet me a Hell Yea")

 

All of these run counter to what probably would have made them more short-term money.

 

These are all reasons I love the band. I suspect others do too. If they were arrogant in their 20s, they were normal.

[MMCXII]

In the very early 80s, after discovering Rush, I was also listening to a bunch of other prog stuff. I liked the band U.K. with drummer Terry Bozzio. Then Bozzio went off to form Missing Persons and I couldn't believe he could go from complex rhythms to a basic 3-piece set with boring 4/4 time. It hurt. Fast-forward a handful of years to when I was actually listening to new wave stuff and I finally understood why he did that.

 

Now with the wisdom(?) I've gained over the years I will happily listen to prog stuff and new wave (and metal, punk, alternative, etc.) and like them all.

 

Interesting, why do you think he did it? What was he getting from the simple 4/4 stuff that he wasn't getting from the complex stuff? Just curious.. I'm going to guess it was more "groovy" for lack of a better term..

[MMCXII]

It's pretty clear from what Rush is, as to what the guys in the band don't care that much for.

 

They didn't want to be a band that couldn't play very well.

They didn't want to be a cookie cutter band.

They didn't want simplistic music that would bore them to death to play every night.

They didn't want to write cliche songs about chicks, drugs, and beer.

They didn't want to be the band that yells "Let's hear you scream" or "Who is wasted?" (or whatever the current cliches are "Somebody tweet me a Hell Yea")

 

All of these run counter to what probably would have made them more short-term money.

 

These are all reasons I love the band. I suspect others do too. If they were arrogant in their 20s, they were normal.

 

"Someone tweet me a hell ya" hahaha!

 

Ya but that shit does get old..

"How's everyone feeling tonight!!" (Shut up and sing bud or I'll start feeling ripped off!)

[x1yyz]

In the very early 80s, after discovering Rush, I was also listening to a bunch of other prog stuff. I liked the band U.K. with drummer Terry Bozzio. Then Bozzio went off to form Missing Persons and I couldn't believe he could go from complex rhythms to a basic 3-piece set with boring 4/4 time. It hurt. Fast-forward a handful of years to when I was actually listening to new wave stuff and I finally understood why he did that.

 

Now with the wisdom(?) I've gained over the years I will happily listen to prog stuff and new wave (and metal, punk, alternative, etc.) and like them all.

 

Interesting, why do you think he did it? What was he getting from the simple 4/4 stuff that he wasn't getting from the complex stuff? Just curious.. I'm going to guess it was more "groovy" for lack of a better term..

 

 

For better or worse, the 70s was known for a lot of long hair, musical pretension, long and complex songs, and a lot of/most rock music was based in the blues. With the advent of punk, and later new wave, all of a sudden there were brand new genres that did not drawn from the blues. Musicians had short hair, and played short songs that were simple and basic. Suddenly, instead of music associated with the slow pace of pot or LSD you had high-energy, fast stuff. In short, punk & new wave were the antithesis of 70s music.

 

So, what I think happened with Bozzio is he got tired of doing the prog thing and wanted to get involved in the energy of new wave. He did "go back to the basics." I don't know how much of an influence Dale (his wife & Missing Persons singer) was on him but they certainly ended up with something successful. Although, now that I've typed that I wonder if the desire to make money was a reason for changing styles? MP certainly was popular while U.K. wasn't.

[Narps]

In the very early 80s, after discovering Rush, I was also listening to a bunch of other prog stuff. I liked the band U.K. with drummer Terry Bozzio. Then Bozzio went off to form Missing Persons and I couldn't believe he could go from complex rhythms to a basic 3-piece set with boring 4/4 time. It hurt. Fast-forward a handful of years to when I was actually listening to new wave stuff and I finally understood why he did that.

 

Now with the wisdom(?) I've gained over the years I will happily listen to prog stuff and new wave (and metal, punk, alternative, etc.) and like them all.

Hey I have a couple U.K. albums in my collection somewhere. Damn I has good taste back in the day.... :D

[bathory]

Punk / indie rock fans are more annoying than any Prog fans I've met.

 

For the record, I enjoy quite a bit of Punk/ indie/ college music as well..

of course there are less assholes in prog

 

I can assure you that isn't true at all.

 

People are people, purveying a certain type of music does not necessarily change or reflect their personality. Give me a John Lydon anyday over a Ginger Baker, Neil Peart or Derek Dick.

 

I should rephrase...I've encountered less assholes in prog

 

and at least johnny rotten likes other music besides other 77 punk bands. we could talk all day about kate bush, tull and van der graaf

 

I'd rather smoke some weed with alex lifeson or dave brock from hawkwind than have ian mackaye tell me why I'm a sheep and a moron for doing so

[bathory]

In the very early 80s, after discovering Rush, I was also listening to a bunch of other prog stuff. I liked the band U.K. with drummer Terry Bozzio. Then Bozzio went off to form Missing Persons and I couldn't believe he could go from complex rhythms to a basic 3-piece set with boring 4/4 time. It hurt. Fast-forward a handful of years to when I was actually listening to new wave stuff and I finally understood why he did that.

 

Now with the wisdom(?) I've gained over the years I will happily listen to prog stuff and new wave (and metal, punk, alternative, etc.) and like them all.

 

Interesting, why do you think he did it? What was he getting from the simple 4/4 stuff that he wasn't getting from the complex stuff? Just curious.. I'm going to guess it was more "groovy" for lack of a better term..

 

 

For better or worse, the 70s was known for a lot of long hair, musical pretension, long and complex songs, and a lot of/most rock music was based in the blues. With the advent of punk, and later new wave, all of a sudden there were brand new genres that did not drawn from the blues. Musicians had short hair, and played short songs that were simple and basic. Suddenly, instead of music associated with the slow pace of pot or LSD you had high-energy, fast stuff. In short, punk & new wave were the antithesis of 70s music.

 

So, what I think happened with Bozzio is he got tired of doing the prog thing and wanted to get involved in the energy of new wave. He did "go back to the basics." I don't know how much of an influence Dale (his wife & Missing Persons singer) was on him but they certainly ended up with something successful. Although, now that I've typed that I wonder if the desire to make money was a reason for changing styles? MP certainly was popular while U.K. wasn't.

 

a lot of musicians just get sick of playing the same stuff I guess.

[bathory]

Yeah, it is sad that punk has become more of a restraint to creativity for some folks. A friend of mine was in a fairly well-known (for that scene) anachist punk band, and on one album they experimented with a cello and different instruments and one of the main reviews of the album criticized them for not being punk. My friend kind of threw up his hands at that point and just chose to be a musician.

 

Post-punk, though, as a genre (once again, it seems more a set of principles, but what do I know?) has some pretty interesting stuff that seems to grow on the original ethos of punk. I do think it's an awesome thing for people to feel they can make music sloppily with just three chords, but the point is that sometimes you grow past that, and there's nothing special in the original format anyway, it was the idea. Oddly, prog can be the same way—a revolutionary approach that became a set of rules.

 

It's an interesting topic. I feel like I am not expected to be a prog rock fan, and people are far more willing to listen to me talk about Riot Grrl or indie rock, even metal, because I feel like there's a presence of women there now, even if it is rare. But when I tell people my honest-to-goodness favourite band in the whole world is Rush I sometimes wonder if they believe me. I've never had a fanboy try to suggest I'm a "fake" Rush fan, haha, like seems to happen in other nerdy corners of the world (and seriously, bring it on, give me 10 minutes and I'd have him sobbing and apologizing for not being able to recite set lists from every tour ;) ).

 

Anyway, back on topic: I don't think I'm a prog snob, if anything I feel like I am a missionary for wider prog acceptance. :D

 

what band was it

[x1yyz]

I'd rather smoke some weed with alex lifeson or dave brock from hawkwind than have ian mackaye tell me why I'm a sheep and a moron for doing so

 

I'd rather smoke weed with Alex as well, and I don't even smoke weed!

[Ged Lent's sis]

Great discussion. I'm pleased the forum has taken to it; I don't post new topics very often. I do have to say that to a certain extent there are some generalizations made regarding who's more of a snob than whom else, but I guess I was asking for it.

 

Basically, I'd think that anyone wearing a genre on their sleeve as musical preference is going to come off as a bit narrow-minded even if they are not arrogant. My experience is that if you get to know someone below their surface, the things they turn out to love would often surprise you.

 

On a related note: In the beginning, I was essentially pre-programmed to dislike Johnny Rotten and everything he stands for (ironically, the point, idn't it?) Years later when I got to know the music of PiL, I developed an appreciation for John Lydon, to the extent that I realized that Never Mind the Bullocks was an essential Rock & Roll album. I came around to enjoying Lydon as an interview subject for a while, recognizing he was spot-on about so many things political, social, and musical.

 

Then I realized much of what he had to say was just contrarian and occasionally kind of annoying. Anyway, Bathory alluded to Kate Bush. I saw him in that Kate Bush appreciation video and, later, at the Q Awards where he gushed about her -- I couldn't help but have a greater new-found respect for him. Still, I cannot take his own version of his own music over the Jah Wobble/Keith Levene version that toured a couple of years ago. An hour of Lydon's vocals just don't do it for me.

 

In short, I think the punk and new wave movements made an important point, so long as one doesn't see it as an exclusionary one. Playing 8/7 in every song can get monotonous, too, on the one hand, and ripping in 4 can be a great release of tension. Yet at the end of the day, it really is a matter of taste.

 

And, come on, Rush is progressive, but it's hardly Prog. Okay, sorry, I'll try to concede this point for the sake of you who embrace the Prog label, with the one caveat that, to me, Prog and Indie are marketing categories and have little to do with progressing or being independent. Rush transcended that label before it became one.

 

 

Anyway, Mental Hopscotch is pretty cool, too.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Ged Lent's sis

[bathory]

keep in mind I'm not so much trying to generalize as I am speaking from my experience with those fans. it's not a fact that punk fans are bigger pricks than prog fans, but...it is for me. and yeah, very cool that lydon likes kate bush

[bathory]

and the thread was about prog snobbery in old interviews, and I've always thought of late 70s/early 80s rush as prog. prog and indie are marketing categories now but there was a time when indie bands were actually on independent labels. now it's come to mean coffee house shit music, just like prog has come to mean any band with 15 minute songs and an audible bass player

[SUBDIVISIONS]

Ged is the best human Been and Artist.

[Tony R]

Ged is the best human Been and Artist.

 

What does that make you, a half-baked Been?

[MMCXII]

Ged is the best human Been and Artist.

 

What does that make you, a half-baked Been?

 

Why half baked? Because he's subdivided? :P

[EagleMoon]

This thread is so silly. Musicians through time have always strived to improve and get better. I have several friends that play for an orchestra and much of their lives revolve around practicing and learning. It takes a long time to get really proficient at an instrument. If the guys in Rush have ever come across at all at being pompous or looking down on other musicians for selling out or not trying to be proficient then more power to them.

[ThatLightInYourEyes]

OBut the question that arose is an interesting one: :codger: Are you or have you ever been a prog snob!! :spitwater:

Answer the question!

 

Sorry. Should I be?

[x1yyz]

Ged is the best human Been and Artist.

 

What does that make you, a half-baked Been?

 

Bean there, done that.

[EagleMoon]

Ged is the best human Been and Artist.

 

What does that make you, a half-baked Been?

 

Bean there, done that.

 

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