That Darn Anarchist

[spock]

As I was listening (still!) to CA on the way to work, I realized why I'm confused about the story:

 

In 2112, the Priests have controlled society into uniform conformity (is that redundant?). The protagonist finds a device that opens his mind to something better, tastes freedom, makes his case against the oppressive system and walks away from the system just as the the "good guys" arrive on scene to set things aright.

 

In CA, the anarchist is driven by resentment to fight "the system", not from a sense that there's a better way for everyone to live, but simply because he wants vengeance. Not a pure motive and apparently doesn't directly or inadvertently change the system through his actions

 

BUT

 

It doesn't seem like he is the cause of change in the CA protagonist either - the Anarchist appears to be one of many experiences along the way in a life of adventures/misadventures. I don't get a sense that by the end of the story anything has really changed in how the world works ("the Watchmaker sticks to his schemes"), it's really just the protagonist coming to terms with that world and making peace with it and himself.

 

So, in CA, the individual does not triumph over the system, he simply learns to live with it...

 

I'll get to work now...

[trenken]

It's really a pretty simple story, not unlike what many people experience throughout their lives. I think people might be reading too deep into this. It's not as out there as 2112 is. That's really a fantasy story in some ways, an exaggeration, but this isn't.

 

What this guy goes through is normal experiences for humans, just dressed up in a fantasy setting.

 

The story gets right down to god, religion, the basics of life and death itself, chance, circumstances, all stuff Neil has written about already, which we already kind of knew from BU2B.

 

The protagonist, like Neil, is not a believer. He doesnt believe in afterlife or heaven, doesnt believe things happen for a reason, or fate or destiny, so time is the greatest enemy to people like him, where it actually isnt for believers. To him there's simply nothing you can do but live out your days the best you can, hope for the best, things will go wrong along the way for all of us, and eventually we just return to nothing.

 

The Anarchist just represents those that don't take failure too well. Some absorb it and learn from it, others lay blame or seek vengeance.

 

 

[Principled Man]

QUOTE (spock @ Jun 28 2012, 07:40 AM)

It doesn't seem like he is the cause of change in the CA protagonist either - the Anarchist appears to be one of many experiences along the way in a life of adventures/misadventures. I don't get a sense that by the end of the story anything has really changed in how the world works ("the Watchmaker sticks to his schemes"), it's really just the protagonist coming to terms with that world and making peace with it and himself. So, in CA, the individual does not triumph over the system, he simply learns to live with it...

That's a pretty accurate description. No one ever said that the "hero" of the story was going to change his world or "defeat" the Watchmaker.....

 

The hero of the story simply came to terms with his life and the world he lives in. He realized that while he may not be able to change the world and the people in his life, he can change himself and how he lives. He chose to get along without going along with the Watchmaker's fabricated happiness.

 

[J2112YYZ]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 07:59 AM)

It's really a pretty simple story, not unlike what many people experience throughout their lives. I think people might be reading too deep into this. It's not as out there as 2112 is. That's really a fantasy story in some ways, an exaggeration, but this isn't. What this guy goes through is normal experiences for humans, just dressed up in a fantasy setting. The story gets right down to god, religion, the basics of life and death itself, chance, circumstances, all stuff Neil has written about already, which we already kind of knew from BU2B. The protagonist, like Neil, is not a believer. He doesnt believe in afterlife or heaven, doesnt believe things happen for a reason, or fate or destiny, so time is the greatest enemy to people like him, where it actually isnt for believers. To him there's simply nothing you can do but live out your days the best you can, hope for the best, things will go wrong along the way for all of us, and eventually we just return to nothing. The Anarchist just represents those that don't take failure too well. Some absorb it and learn from it, others lay blame or seek vengeance.

That's about as good of an explination as you'll get about the story on CA. It's not too complicated to follow at all

[trenken]

QUOTE (J2112YYZ @ Jun 28 2012, 08:18 AM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 07:59 AM) It's really a pretty simple story, not unlike what many people experience throughout their lives. I think people might be reading too deep into this. It's not as out there as 2112 is. That's really a fantasy story in some ways, an exaggeration, but this isn't. What this guy goes through is normal experiences for humans, just dressed up in a fantasy setting. The story gets right down to god, religion, the basics of life and death itself, chance, circumstances, all stuff Neil has written about already, which we already kind of knew from BU2B. The protagonist, like Neil, is not a believer. He doesnt believe in afterlife or heaven, doesnt believe things happen for a reason, or fate or destiny, so time is the greatest enemy to people like him, where it actually isnt for believers. To him there's simply nothing you can do but live out your days the best you can, hope for the best, things will go wrong along the way for all of us, and eventually we just return to nothing. The Anarchist just represents those that don't take failure too well. Some absorb it and learn from it, others lay blame or seek vengeance. That's about as good of an explination as you'll get about the story on CA. It's not too complicated to follow at all Well you can read deeper into some of it and make it mean something else if you want which is ok, and Neil will expand on some of this in the book Im sure, but it really is a pretty common story, and I think it was intended to be that way. It wasn't meant to be a very fantastical story like 2112 or Hemispheres.   Much of it I think is written around what Neil does and doesn't believe, which we know from 35+ years of lyrics he's written and things he's said during that time. In a way I think it could be about him, things he's experienced, maybe things he's seen or people he's met, but some of it is definitely taken right out of his personal beliefs and things that have happened to him. That's very obvious, but its not him specifically, these things happen to many people. I think that's the idea here. The protagonist is all of us.   You could even look at the Anarchist as being who Neil could have been after 1996/7. He could have become very angry, and maybe even did for a while, but he ended up doing all he could do, just keep on living. That's where The Garden comes in. This story doesn't really have a very happy ending. All of us will die, all of us will experience pain and suffering. Everyone we know and love will die. The protagonist realizes things didnt turn out as he planned, as they dont for many people, didnt take it too well at first, but then realized things just happen sometimes for no apparent reason and all you can do is just trudge along until you die.   I think The Garden is a very sad and sobering song. Maybe no sad, but it's just reality. And the reality is, in Neil's eyes, that we're all just empty fragile shells and time will tear us down eventually.

[spock]

Good replies,

 

I guess it took me a while to realize that it really is a sad story - with a unbelief system, you can you only wish to "live it all again" and make peace with the inevitable winking out and returning to "the dust of the stars".

 

A metaphorical combination of "you can't fight city hall" and "that's all, folks!"

[ShlappinDahBass]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 08:45 AM)

QUOTE (J2112YYZ @ Jun 28 2012, 08:18 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 07:59 AM) It's really a pretty simple story, not unlike what many people experience throughout their lives. I think people might be reading too deep into this. It's not as out there as 2112 is. That's really a fantasy story in some ways, an exaggeration, but this isn't. What this guy goes through is normal experiences for humans, just dressed up in a fantasy setting. The story gets right down to god, religion, the basics of life and death itself, chance, circumstances, all stuff Neil has written about already, which we already kind of knew from BU2B. The protagonist, like Neil, is not a believer. He doesnt believe in afterlife or heaven, doesnt believe things happen for a reason, or fate or destiny, so time is the greatest enemy to people like him, where it actually isnt for believers. To him there's simply nothing you can do but live out your days the best you can, hope for the best, things will go wrong along the way for all of us, and eventually we just return to nothing. The Anarchist just represents those that don't take failure too well. Some absorb it and learn from it, others lay blame or seek vengeance. That's about as good of an explination as you'll get about the story on CA. It's not too complicated to follow at all Well you can read deeper into some of it and make it mean something else if you want which is ok, and Neil will expand on some of this in the book Im sure, but it really is a pretty common story, and I think it was intended to be that way. It wasn't meant to be a very fantastical story like 2112 or Hemispheres.   Much of it I think is written around what Neil does and doesn't believe, which we know from 35+ years of lyrics he's written and things he's said during that time. In a way I think it could be about him, things he's experienced, maybe things he's seen or people he's met, but some of it is definitely taken right out of his personal beliefs and things that have happened to him. That's very obvious, but its not him specifically, these things happen to many people. I think that's the idea here. The protagonist is all of us.   You could even look at the Anarchist as being who Neil could have been after 1996/7. He could have become very angry, and maybe even did for a while, but he ended up doing all he could do, just keep on living. That's where The Garden comes in. This story doesn't really have a very happy ending. All of us will die, all of us will experience pain and suffering. Everyone we know and love will die. The protagonist realizes things didnt turn out as he planned, as they dont for many people, didnt take it too well at first, but then realized things just happen sometimes for no apparent reason and all you can do is just trudge along until you die.   I think The Garden is a very sad and sobering song. Maybe no sad, but it's just reality. And the reality is, in Neil's eyes, that we're all just empty fragile shells and time will tear us down eventually. I don't think you could've hit it on the nail more than that. I'm actually very interested in everything you're saying right now.

[trenken]

QUOTE (spock @ Jun 28 2012, 08:53 AM)

Good replies, I guess it took me a while to realize that it really is a sad story - with a unbelief system, you can you only wish to "live it all again" and make peace with the inevitable winking out and returning to "the dust of the stars". A metaphorical combination of "you can't fight city hall" and "that's all, folks!"

I think that's the whole thing, we can't live again. So what's the only option? Keep on living. As bad as some times might have been for you, you were still alive and what more can you really ask for?

 

It's sad and not sad at the same time. I really think The Larger Bowl was kind of a foreshadowing of what Neil decided to write about here. "Some are blessed and some are cursed..... such a lot of pain on the Earth".

 

He's written about this in so many songs, but never really told a full story about it, so in a way this is a culmination of songs like Circumstances, Freewill, Roll The Bones, The Big Wheel and many others.

 

 

[spock]

One last thought today (promise!): I notice that folks who seem the most sure that there's nothing "beyond" spend a great deal of energy on lyrics to assert their opinion (NP, Maynard James Keenan).

[trenken]

QUOTE (spock @ Jun 28 2012, 09:13 AM)

One last thought today (promise!): I notice that folks who seem the most sure that there's nothing "beyond" spend a great deal of energy on lyrics to assert their opinion (NP, Maynard James Keenan).

Well it's just what's most interesting to them. I dont know Tool quite as well, but I know his lyrics are very abstract and much of them based around concepts of god and religion. He's a pretty smart guy. He's very similar to Cedric from Mars Volta who constantly writes about this stuff as well in a similar style that Maynard writes in.

 

Ed from Live was the same way. Always wrote about his disdain for religion for 3 albums, then became born again after he had his first child, and then that was all he wrote about for their next couple albums until they fell apart. The band Kansas became that way as well.

Edited June 28, 2012 by trenken

[Principled Man]

QUOTE (spock @ Jun 28 2012, 08:53 AM)

Good replies, I guess it took me a while to realize that it really is a sad story - with a unbelief system, you can you only wish to "live it all again" and make peace with the inevitable winking out and returning to "the dust of the stars". A metaphorical combination of "you can't fight city hall" and "that's all, folks!"

I think it's a story about what's REAL. Whether life - REAL life - is happy or sad is completely up to US. That is what Neil is trying to say, IMO.

 

Neil is neither an optimist nor a pessimist. He's a realist. He sees the world with eyes wide open. He sees all the good and all the bad, the yin and yang. We all have the choice to enjoy life and all its ups and downs. We can also live in misery - envy, regret, grudges, vengeance - if we choose. Neil chooses to live the GOOD life......as should we all....

Edited June 28, 2012 by Workaholic Man

[Knice]

Ya, I mean how can the story be anything but "somewhat" sad if Neil doesn't believe in the afterlife...that..."life is hard and then you die" and then..thats it. So glad I don't think or believe like that. So thankful Im not in a fanatical crazy church that Neil thinks of all religions. Our church teaches to give more, think outside your self and forgive which I hope has made me a better Dad, husband and man. When you think about it, that is what "wish them well" is about...which is cool but just kinda leaves out a big piece.

Love the album! Cant wait to see them opening night!!!!

[trenken]

QUOTE (Workaholic Man @ Jun 28 2012, 09:48 AM)

QUOTE (spock @ Jun 28 2012, 08:53 AM) Good replies, I guess it took me a while to realize that it really is a sad story - with a unbelief system, you can you only wish to "live it all again" and make peace with the inevitable winking out and returning to "the dust of the stars". A metaphorical combination of "you can't fight city hall" and "that's all, folks!" I think it's a story about what's REAL. Whether life - REAL life - is happy or sad is completely up to US. That is what Neil is trying to say, IMO.   Neil is neither an optimist nor a pessimist. He's a realist. He sees the world with eyes wide open. He sees all the good and all the bad, the yin and yang. We all have the choice to enjoy life and all its ups and downs. We can also live in misery - envy, regret, grudges, vengeance - if we choose. Neil chooses to live the GOOD life......as should we all....   It's all subjective though really. To religious people, the ones I know that like Rush, many of them feel he's living an empty life because he doesn't think there's anything beyond these "bodies of clay", as Ed from Live once described us.   Neil's made a lot of money and has had great professional success, but to them he's not rich. Don't want to get too much into that though because that's really just how they view a story like CA, and I don't want to look at things that way.   To someone like me, The Garden is sad in some ways, it's reality to me, which is that someday I wont exist anymore, but to them The Garden represents the doorstep to something far greater than physical existence and is something very positive to look forward to. Not that they can't wait to die, but they know in their hearts it's not the end, and really just another beginning, one that lasts far longer than our little lives.

[Knice]

Trenken, I think you nailed it !

[trenken]

There was another thread about how some thought the order of the songs was wrong, since Headlong Flight is positive in some way and they thought that should be the last song.

 

I think in this story he goes from having hope, things go wrong, he gets angry (The Anarchist), grows older, realizes during Headlong that maybe his life really wasn't that bad, at least he got to experience something, when many die young and don't get to experience much of anything, but then after that reality sets in. Time is marching on and he's going to die soon enough. A realists view of the end, as opposed to how a person of faith would view that stage of life.

Edited June 28, 2012 by trenken

[Principled Man]

QUOTE (Knice @ Jun 28 2012, 09:58 AM)

Ya, I mean how can the story be anything but "somewhat" sad if Neil doesn't believe in the afterlife...that..."life is hard and then you die" and then..thats it.  So glad I don't think or believe like that.

 

Not everyone sees death as sad.....

 

Life is GREAT! It's hard, it's fun and then boring, it's joy, it's pain, it's triumph and failure, it's love and loneliness, it's left and right, it's up and down.....yeah, we're all going to die someday, but so what? That's just reality. No need at all to dwell on it. That's what makes life so special......it's finite. Personally, I wouldn't want to be immortal; the eternal boredom would be worse than death.

 

Like Freddie Gruber said..... "I want to live it all again!"

 

Ever see City Of Angels with Nicholas Cage and Meg Ryan? The angel chose to stay human and LIVE, even though he lost the woman he loved so much. He chose to live life for the wonderful experience that Life is.....even with the dangers of loss and pain. He chose the danger, the uncertainty, the risk of being hurt again.....all because the JOY of life was far more powerful.

[Mr. Not]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 05:59 AM)

It's really a pretty simple story, not unlike what many people experience throughout their lives. I think people might be reading too deep into this. It's not as out there as 2112 is. That's really a fantasy story in some ways, an exaggeration, but this isn't. What this guy goes through is normal experiences for humans, just dressed up in a fantasy setting. The story gets right down to god, religion, the basics of life and death itself, chance, circumstances, all stuff Neil has written about already, which we already kind of knew from BU2B. The protagonist, like Neil, is not a believer. He doesnt believe in afterlife or heaven, doesnt believe things happen for a reason, or fate or destiny, so time is the greatest enemy to people like him, where it actually isnt for believers. To him there's simply nothing you can do but live out your days the best you can, hope for the best, things will go wrong along the way for all of us, and eventually we just return to nothing. The Anarchist just represents those that don't take failure too well. Some absorb it and learn from it, others lay blame or seek vengeance.

Great story Peart... It's Snakes & Arrows v2

 

 

 

 

 

I'll keep listening to King Diamond's album "Them" instead... Grandma makes some damn good tea, the old bitch.

[Principled Man]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 10:18 AM)

There was another thread about how some thought the order of the songs was wrong, since Headlong Flight is positive in some way and they thought that should be the last song. I think in this story he goes from having hope, things go wrong, he gets angry (The Anarchist), grows older, realizes during Headlong that maybe his life really wasn't that bad, at least he got to experience something, when many die young and don't get to experience much of anything, but then after that reality sets in. Time is marching on and he's going to die soon enough. A realists view of the end, as opposed to how a person of faith would view that stage of life.

I think Headlong Flight is placed perfectly. It's where he has his epiphany. He realizes that life is great, and he then regrets nothing. He wants to live it all again, even though it has good and bad.

 

As a result, he comes to know that hard feelings and grudges don't matter anymore. He forgives everything (everyone) that has caused him pain. He says goodbye to his "old life", wishes everyone well (even those who have harmed him) and moves on....

[trenken]

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Jun 28 2012, 10:28 AM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 05:59 AM) It's really a pretty simple story, not unlike what many people experience throughout their lives. I think people might be reading too deep into this. It's not as out there as 2112 is. That's really a fantasy story in some ways, an exaggeration, but this isn't. What this guy goes through is normal experiences for humans, just dressed up in a fantasy setting. The story gets right down to god, religion, the basics of life and death itself, chance, circumstances, all stuff Neil has written about already, which we already kind of knew from BU2B. The protagonist, like Neil, is not a believer. He doesnt believe in afterlife or heaven, doesnt believe things happen for a reason, or fate or destiny, so time is the greatest enemy to people like him, where it actually isnt for believers. To him there's simply nothing you can do but live out your days the best you can, hope for the best, things will go wrong along the way for all of us, and eventually we just return to nothing. The Anarchist just represents those that don't take failure too well. Some absorb it and learn from it, others lay blame or seek vengeance. Great story Peart... It's Snakes & Arrows v2           I'll keep listening to King Diamond's album "Them" instead... Grandma makes some damn good tea, the old bitch. Not really though. S&A was more of a personal attack on religion. He mentioned his annoyance for riding his bike and seeing those signs in front of churches spreading the word. Even something like that bothered him and he mentioned that a few times in his stories on his site.   This album really isnt about religion itself, but more life and death, experiences, regrets, learning, and touches on religion but not really a blatant attack on it. Songs like The Way The Wind Blows had some very nasty lines in them, very insulting to religious people.   CA really just gets more into, "If someone is pulling the strings (The Watchmaker), why do bad things happen to good people like me?" That sort of thing. It's not so much about organized religion itself.

Edited June 28, 2012 by trenken

[Lost In Xanadu]

I've enjoyed reading this thread more than most threads lately - thanks!

 

http://www.thecrimsoncrow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/awesome0.jpg

Edited June 28, 2012 by Lost In Xanadu

[Apollo]

QUOTE (Mr. IsNot @ Jun 28 2012, 10:28 AM)

I'll keep listening to King Diamond's album "Them" instead... Grandma makes some damn good tea, the old bitch.

I like Conspiracy better than Them but think both had better flowing stories than CA does. Although I do like the music and a lot of the ideas in CA, the story is just too choppy. And it was nice to see that CA was not just another long attack on religion like S&A was. I would have liked CA to be a little more fantastical, it doesn't seem like a lot was done with the steampunk setting.

[Tombstone Mountain]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 10:08 AM)

QUOTE (Workaholic Man @ Jun 28 2012, 09:48 AM) QUOTE (spock @ Jun 28 2012, 08:53 AM) Good replies, I guess it took me a while to realize that it really is a sad story - with a unbelief system, you can you only wish to "live it all again" and make peace with the inevitable winking out and returning to "the dust of the stars". A metaphorical combination of "you can't fight city hall" and "that's all, folks!" I think it's a story about what's REAL. Whether life - REAL life - is happy or sad is completely up to US. That is what Neil is trying to say, IMO.   Neil is neither an optimist nor a pessimist. He's a realist. He sees the world with eyes wide open. He sees all the good and all the bad, the yin and yang. We all have the choice to enjoy life and all its ups and downs. We can also live in misery - envy, regret, grudges, vengeance - if we choose. Neil chooses to live the GOOD life......as should we all....   It's all subjective though really. To religious people, the ones I know that like Rush, many of them feel he's living an empty life because he doesn't think there's anything beyond these "bodies of clay", as Ed from Live once described us.   Neil's made a lot of money and has had great professional success, but to them he's not rich. Don't want to get too much into that though because that's really just how they view a story like CA, and I don't want to look at things that way.   To someone like me, The Garden is sad in some ways, it's reality to me, which is that someday I wont exist anymore, but to them The Garden represents the doorstep to something far greater than physical existence and is something very positive to look forward to. Not that they can't wait to die, but they know in their hearts it's not the end, and really just another beginning, one that lasts far longer than our little lives. Stop Tim...can't stop crying...having a steel magnolias moment!!! Sniff

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 08:45 AM)

QUOTE (J2112YYZ @ Jun 28 2012, 08:18 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 07:59 AM) It's really a pretty simple story, not unlike what many people experience throughout their lives. I think people might be reading too deep into this. It's not as out there as 2112 is. That's really a fantasy story in some ways, an exaggeration, but this isn't. What this guy goes through is normal experiences for humans, just dressed up in a fantasy setting. The story gets right down to god, religion, the basics of life and death itself, chance, circumstances, all stuff Neil has written about already, which we already kind of knew from BU2B. The protagonist, like Neil, is not a believer. He doesnt believe in afterlife or heaven, doesnt believe things happen for a reason, or fate or destiny, so time is the greatest enemy to people like him, where it actually isnt for believers. To him there's simply nothing you can do but live out your days the best you can, hope for the best, things will go wrong along the way for all of us, and eventually we just return to nothing. The Anarchist just represents those that don't take failure too well. Some absorb it and learn from it, others lay blame or seek vengeance. That's about as good of an explination as you'll get about the story on CA. It's not too complicated to follow at all Well you can read deeper into some of it and make it mean something else if you want which is ok, and Neil will expand on some of this in the book Im sure, but it really is a pretty common story, and I think it was intended to be that way. It wasn't meant to be a very fantastical story like 2112 or Hemispheres.   Much of it I think is written around what Neil does and doesn't believe, which we know from 35+ years of lyrics he's written and things he's said during that time. In a way I think it could be about him, things he's experienced, maybe things he's seen or people he's met, but some of it is definitely taken right out of his personal beliefs and things that have happened to him. That's very obvious, but its not him specifically, these things happen to many people. I think that's the idea here. The protagonist is all of us.   You could even look at the Anarchist as being who Neil could have been after 1996/7. He could have become very angry, and maybe even did for a while, but he ended up doing all he could do, just keep on living. That's where The Garden comes in. This story doesn't really have a very happy ending. All of us will die, all of us will experience pain and suffering. Everyone we know and love will die. The protagonist realizes things didnt turn out as he planned, as they dont for many people, didnt take it too well at first, but then realized things just happen sometimes for no apparent reason and all you can do is just trudge along until you die.   I think The Garden is a very sad and sobering song. Maybe no sad, but it's just reality. And the reality is, in Neil's eyes, that we're all just empty fragile shells and time will tear us down eventually. Well Trenken, You've done it again. You have forced me to agree with you! Well stated sir!

[trenken]

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Jun 28 2012, 03:02 PM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 08:45 AM) QUOTE (J2112YYZ @ Jun 28 2012, 08:18 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 28 2012, 07:59 AM) It's really a pretty simple story, not unlike what many people experience throughout their lives. I think people might be reading too deep into this. It's not as out there as 2112 is. That's really a fantasy story in some ways, an exaggeration, but this isn't. What this guy goes through is normal experiences for humans, just dressed up in a fantasy setting. The story gets right down to god, religion, the basics of life and death itself, chance, circumstances, all stuff Neil has written about already, which we already kind of knew from BU2B. The protagonist, like Neil, is not a believer. He doesnt believe in afterlife or heaven, doesnt believe things happen for a reason, or fate or destiny, so time is the greatest enemy to people like him, where it actually isnt for believers. To him there's simply nothing you can do but live out your days the best you can, hope for the best, things will go wrong along the way for all of us, and eventually we just return to nothing. The Anarchist just represents those that don't take failure too well. Some absorb it and learn from it, others lay blame or seek vengeance. That's about as good of an explination as you'll get about the story on CA. It's not too complicated to follow at all Well you can read deeper into some of it and make it mean something else if you want which is ok, and Neil will expand on some of this in the book Im sure, but it really is a pretty common story, and I think it was intended to be that way. It wasn't meant to be a very fantastical story like 2112 or Hemispheres.   Much of it I think is written around what Neil does and doesn't believe, which we know from 35+ years of lyrics he's written and things he's said during that time. In a way I think it could be about him, things he's experienced, maybe things he's seen or people he's met, but some of it is definitely taken right out of his personal beliefs and things that have happened to him. That's very obvious, but its not him specifically, these things happen to many people. I think that's the idea here. The protagonist is all of us.   You could even look at the Anarchist as being who Neil could have been after 1996/7. He could have become very angry, and maybe even did for a while, but he ended up doing all he could do, just keep on living. That's where The Garden comes in. This story doesn't really have a very happy ending. All of us will die, all of us will experience pain and suffering. Everyone we know and love will die. The protagonist realizes things didnt turn out as he planned, as they dont for many people, didnt take it too well at first, but then realized things just happen sometimes for no apparent reason and all you can do is just trudge along until you die.   I think The Garden is a very sad and sobering song. Maybe no sad, but it's just reality. And the reality is, in Neil's eyes, that we're all just empty fragile shells and time will tear us down eventually. Well Trenken, You've done it again. You have forced me to agree with you! Well stated sir!   Lol well I'm not forcing you. It's just how I view what he's writing about here. I guess maybe the lyrics are loose enough to be taken another way, which are always the best kinds of lyrics.   I think they're a little more loose than S&A which was just really straight to the point. He wasn't trying to mask what he was getting at, and I kind of prefer lyrics that you can interpret the way you want, so he's a little more back on track with these lyrics than with S&A.

[jc4gd]

Great Thread, great posts!....................here's my spin..............

 

 

 

Yes, definitely not new themes he's written about............combination of belief 1) In humanity (Faithless/CloserTTH/EN)TS "The world is, the world is, Love and life are deep, Maybe as his eyes are wide." C "I can't stop thinking big" 2) Unbelief in "blind men in the market" religion (BU2B1&2)/CA) "Ignorance is well and truly blessed, Trust in perfect love, and perfect planning, Everything will turn out for the best", and hypocrisy(WishTW/ShowDT) and 3) A fatalist god [Watchmaker] (TLBowl/HalfTW) "If there's some immortal power To control the dice? RTB" or some mixture (Totem). 4) Lastly, how bout the hope of immortality while being mortal? 7COG "That gleam in the distance could be heaven's gate A long-awaited treasure at the end of my cruel fate." "Summer's going fast, Nights growing colder Children growing up- Old friends growing older Experience slips away..."TSS, "The hours tick away - the cells tick away" "Hope is what remains to be seen" TheG also Xan "I had heard the whispered tales Of immortality"...........

 

 

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......so I agree with you except that the protagonist "simply learns to live with it", rather, even while facing mortality I see a optimism as reflected in the last line of the album..........yeah, we'll find more clarity when the book comes out.........."A missing part of me that grows around me like a cage" TA

 

 

 

Cheers