Headlong Flight's waveform

[brunosamppa]

FAR CRY, LP - DR10

 

FAR CRY, CD - DR5

[brunosamppa]

The more evident damage is the drums. Much more breath in the vinyl version

[brunosamppa]

Rush - Counterparts ORIGINAL CD FIRST PRESSING:

 

 

Rush - Counterparts GERMAN VINYL 1993:

 

[Rush-O-Matic]

I did a search for Brad Garnder in the forum, and didn't see anything.

 

This Article

 

mentions that the mastering for Clockwork Angels was done at Bernie's. (No word on whether or not it was in a weekend there.)

 

Is the brickwalling usually done before mastering or during? I seem to remember something about the Vapor Trails issues possibly being a mastering issue. Do Grundman personnel have a history of good output? I don't know what happens where in the recording to mastering to my ears process, but I don't remember his name being mentioned for any of the recent projects like Sectors, Retrospective and other re-mastered projects.

[eshine]

So how does one decifer how good or bad the individual instruments were mixed by looking at a wave file ? Im not being facetious, just curious. I can see how the overall mix is LOUDER on some of these examples, but how can you tell if it's the bass, or cymbals or whatever by looking at a wave file?

[Rush-O-Matic]

QUOTE (eshine @ Apr 23 2012, 04:55 PM)

So how does one decifer how good or bad the individual instruments were mixed by looking at a wave file ? Im not being facetious, just curious. I can see how the overall mix is LOUDER on some of these examples, but how can you tell if it's the bass, or cymbals or whatever by looking at a wave file?

Somebody that know a lot more about this than me can answer those questions more intelligently. But, from the little bit I know from messing around with the waveforms in Audacity . . .

 

It's not really LOUDNESS that's the issue, per se, although that's certainly an issue. It's the dynamic range - at least the way I hear it and what I think that means - in other words the variety in peak size of the loudest part to the softest part. Consequently, I don't think you can tell much of anything about the way the instruments are mixed individually by looking at the waveform.

[Tigershark2112]

When the waveforms go off the chart, it means it's clipping, and you're getting a distorted sound. It also means that it's not capturing the entire sound of the instrument/voice, as its going above and below what the recording device is capable of receiving, mostly due to loudness because they were recorded too hot/loud. Basically, the input levels were set too high. There.

[analog guy]

Generally, the more green and less black you see on the forms, the more compressed it is. Also, if the highest and lowest points routinely reach the white end lines at the top and bottom, that's also a good indication.

 

Look how much green there is on the Caravan and BU2Bs compared to the vinyl ones of the same tunes just below it.

[losingit2k]

It doesn't really matter anymore, Just download the Single for ITunes and you'll hear the difference!

 

"Houston, We have separation!"

 

[Mr. Henry Gale]

Not sure if anyone cares, but I bought the official single off iTunes and compared the Waveform to two 80's recordings (Rush - Prime Mover and U2 - Bullet In the Blue Sky):

 

Rush - Headlong Flight (2012)

 

http://i.imgur.com/53DVL.png

 

Rush - Prime Mover (1987)

 

http://i.imgur.com/OAKnZ.png

 

U2 - Bullet the Blue Sky (1987)

 

http://i.imgur.com/Oryue.png

 

As for why I chose these other two songs, it was random (sort of). It's pretty commonly known that the 80's had good mastering and it wasn't until the 90's that the loudness war really took over.

 

So I thought it would be interesting to see the difference between then and now in 2012. As far as HF, it looks pretty loud. But then again, I'm back at school and don't have the programs I usually have to run these. So I'll be interested to see what your guys waveforms look like, now that the single is officially out and in high quality.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Mr. Henry Gale

[Rush-O-Matic]

QUOTE (Mr. Henry Gale @ Apr 24 2012, 02:34 AM)

Rush - Headlong Flight (2012) http://i.imgur.com/53DVL.png Rush - Prime Mover (1987) http://i.imgur.com/OAKnZ.png

This is a perfect way to show the difference (which I know has been expressed ad nauseum over the years.)

 

Those skinny spikes you see in Prime Mover are likely things like a snare hit, or a snappy bass note. You can see how as the digital age began to grow, it dawned on someone that, "hey, we can just raise the level of everything else to make this things louder and "clip" off the top of those peaks."

 

But, all that said, if you don't understand the waveforms, or don't want to. Or, if you simply don't care about the difference in the waveforms, you can still do your own experiment. Simply put your Hold Your Fire CD in your CD player. Set the volume to a rocking loud level. Loud enough so you're saying, yeah man, this rocks! But, not so loud that halfway through the song, you're like, whoa man, my ears are gonna bleed. Listen to a song all the way through (like Prime Mover).

 

Then, take that CD out, don't adjust the volume, and put in your Vapor Trails CD. Skip ahead to something other than One Little Victory. If you're able to make it through the whole song without reaching to turn down the volume (or wrecking your speakers), I will be surpised.

[danielmclark]

So it's louder. So what? That's the thing that most of us don't get about you guys, I think. If the only problem is that it's louder, fine - turn your volume down. Being louder doesn't automatically make it worse, it just means it's different.

 

Try this experiment:

 

Simply put your Vapor Trails CD in your CD player. Set the volume to a rocking loud level. Loud enough so you're saying, yeah man, this rocks! But, not so loud that halfway through the song, you're like, whoa man, my ears are gonna bleed. Listen to a song all the way through (like One Little Victory).

 

Then, take that CD out, don't adjust the volume, and put in your Hold Your Fire [original 80's] CD. Skip ahead to something like Prime Mover. If you're able to make it through the whole song without reaching to turn up the volume, I will be surp[r]ised.

 

See how that works? It doesn't matter how loud or quiet something is as long as there isn't a lot of clipping. It doesn't matter as long as there is good separation of instruments and vocals. You can have a loud mastering as long as attention is paid to detail.

 

Summing up the loudness issue by basically saying you don't want to have to turn down your volume when a certain song comes on... talk about minor quibbles.

 

IMO.

Edited April 24, 2012 by danielmclark

[EmotionDetector]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 24 2012, 09:30 AM)

So it's louder. So what? That's the thing that most of us don't get about you guys, I think. If the only problem is that it's louder, fine - turn your volume down. Being louder doesn't automatically make it worse, it just means it's different. Try this experiment: Simply put your Vapor Trails CD in your CD player. Set the volume to a rocking loud level. Loud enough so you're saying, yeah man, this rocks! But, not so loud that halfway through the song, you're like, whoa man, my ears are gonna bleed. Listen to a song all the way through (like One Little Victory). Then, take that CD out, don't adjust the volume, and put in your Hold Your Fire [original 80's] CD. Skip ahead to something like Prime Mover. If you're able to make it through the whole song without reaching to turn up the volume, I will be surp[r]ised. See how that works? It doesn't matter how loud or quiet something is as long as there isn't a lot of clipping. It doesn't matter as long as there is good separation of instruments and vocals. You can have a loud mastering as long as attention is paid to detail. Summing up the loudness issue by basically saying you don't want to have to turn down your volume when a certain song comes on... talk about minor quibbles. IMO.

I hear what you're saying, but I can't say I totally agree.

 

It's not just about how 'loud' an album is...it's how it truly SOUNDS.

 

VT is heavy and loud - but sounds like shit.

CP is heavy and loud - but sounds excellent.

PoW has a slight heaviness - but sonically is perfect.

 

Believe me...I know exactly what you're saying experiment-wise.

 

For my car, I basically took every Rush song and put them in alphabetical order and burned them over 10 CD's.

 

There is one example that fits what you said perfectly. In order, it goes from One Little Victory (original, not remix) to Open Secrets. Man, the sound difference is unreal. This is truly where you notice just how AWFUL VT is. Put it beside the other songs. It is seriously unlistenable.

 

Oh, and it isn't just VT. The flip-side is hearing how SOFT songs from Presto and Roll The Bones are beside all of the other songs, which are much bulkier and better produced.

 

Sonically...Power Windows is my favourite. Counterparts is a close second in terms of how to capture a heavy album. I'm hoping that CA is in the CP range, though I have my doubts.

[Snaked]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 24 2012, 09:30 AM)

So it's louder. So what? That's the thing that most of us don't get about you guys, I think. If the only problem is that it's louder, fine - turn your volume down. Being louder doesn't automatically make it worse, it just means it's different. Try this experiment: Simply put your Vapor Trails CD in your CD player. Set the volume to a rocking loud level. Loud enough so you're saying, yeah man, this rocks! But, not so loud that halfway through the song, you're like, whoa man, my ears are gonna bleed. Listen to a song all the way through (like One Little Victory). Then, take that CD out, don't adjust the volume, and put in your Hold Your Fire [original 80's] CD. Skip ahead to something like Prime Mover. If you're able to make it through the whole song without reaching to turn up the volume, I will be surp[r]ised. See how that works? It doesn't matter how loud or quiet something is as long as there isn't a lot of clipping. It doesn't matter as long as there is good separation of instruments and vocals. You can have a loud mastering as long as attention is paid to detail. Summing up the loudness issue by basically saying you don't want to have to turn down your volume when a certain song comes on... talk about minor quibbles. IMO.

While I think your point is fair I have an equal comparison for you if you dare.

 

 

Grab a CD copy of Donald Fagen - The Nightfly

Or Joe Jackson - Big World

 

Turn it up to a comfortable level and listen all the way through. Pay attention to how the music breathes... how there is seperation between the instruments and how wonderfully the quiet moments flow into the louder ones.

 

 

Now pull out the CD but dont adjust your volume at all.

 

Insert Vapor Trails.....

 

 

 

I think you see where this is going.

[danielmclark]

I do see where you're going... but what if we leave Vapor Trails out? Snakes & Arrows was loud, too, but the mastering was better and nobody complains that it clips or that it makes their ears bleed. What about comparing a track from that Joe Jackson set to, say, Faithless? Faithless will be louder, but will it be a significantly worse listening experience? I'm not so sure.

[Rush-O-Matic]

Both the last two posters missed my point entirely. I know what the issues are and that it's not just a loudness issue. I was trying to explain the simple loudness issue to those that won't or can't see the problems by following the waveform demonstration. The comparison to not just the difference in how loud VT is vs. HYF, but how TIRESOME it is to your ears listening to VT.

 

QUOTE

doesn't matter how loud or quiet something is as long as there isn't a lot of clipping. It doesn't matter as long as there is good separation of instruments and vocals. You can have a loud mastering as long as attention is paid to detail.

 

I know this.

 

QUOTE

Summing up the loudness issue by basically saying you don't want to have to turn down your volume when a certain song comes on... talk about minor quibbles.

 

Who said that? That certainly wasn't my point at all. If you mean that I wrote that, I did a lousy job of stating my point. My comment about the comparison between loudness issues was directed at those who think there isn't an issue with discs like VT. Comments come up like "What's the big deal with the waveform? I'm not looking at the waveforms when I listen, man." I was trying to give a simple way to hear the obnoxious result of the loudness war buy giving a simple listening demonstration.

[Prime Mover and Shaker]

 

 

It's all about something called dynamic range.

 

Some parts of an instrument's total sound are much quieter than others. This is very important, and most casual listeners don't know (or particularly care) about this detail. And that is perfectly OK.

 

Here's the thing to remember: an instrument sounds the way it does for many reasons, but one of them has to do with the volume relationship between the quiet and loud portions of the total sound. Your brain takes all of this information and turns it into what you interpret as one instrument.

 

If there wasn't this mixture of different volumes, the instrument would sound very different (and, to many opinions, not as good). This is one of the reasons that cheap keyboards with settings like "flute" don't mimic the intended instruments very well - they haven't captured all of the quiet and louder components that make up a flute sound.

 

 

OK, that might all sound academic, but here's how it applies to our discussion (I'm going to oversimplify a few things here; audiophiles please don't beat on me):

 

The technology at work here has a maximum volume during recording. If you keep turning everything up, the loudest sounds reach this limit, but the softer sounds can still increase. This means that the difference between the loudest and quietest sounds is now smaller (this difference is "dynamic range").

 

By making the dynamic range (the difference in sound volumes) smaller, you are changing the way the instrument is interpreted by the brain. Some folks are more sensitive to this than others.

 

Also, your brain doesn't want to have too many of these components of the instrument at the same volume. Remember that there is a limit to how loud things can be as they are recorded. If the recording level is too high, then several of the instrument's sounds components are now at the same level. It's rather like being screamed at by many voices all at once.

 

 

 

An example:

 

 

Let's suppose a natural flute sound is composed of sounds A, B, C, D, E, and F.

 

A has a natural volume of 10.

B has a natural volume of 8.

C has a natural volume of 7.

D has a natural volume of 4.

E has a natural volume of 2.

F has a natural volume of 1.

 

You record the flute with technology that can handle a volume up to 12.

 

Playing back, you hear a natural sounding flute.

 

Now record it by turning all of the volumes up by 5. But remember, 12 is the limit of the recording device.

 

A is recorded at 12.

B is recorded at 12.

C is recorded at 12.

D is recorded at 9.

E is recorded at 7.

F is recorded at 6.

 

This has the advantage of being "louder", so that if you put this track on a party mix CD, it won't sound "weak" compared to the other tracks.

 

However, notice that A, B, and C are now all at the same volume, which is not the case with the original flute. Depending on how sensitive your ears are, you may pick up on that difference, and it may "tire" your ears after a while.

 

Turning the recording volume up further only makes this problem worse.

 

The samples you see above of Prime Mover are akin to the flute being recorded with no added volume.

 

The "brick wall" waveforms are akin to the example where things are turned up by 5. Well, maybe more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Snaked]

It's called aural fatigue (not to be confused with oral fatigue).

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (Rush-O-Matic @ Apr 24 2012, 07:56 AM)

Both the last two posters missed my point entirely. I know what the issues are and that it's not just a loudness issue.

That was my fault. I did a poor job of explaining myself. I used your example and turned it around, but I wasn't always speaking directly to you in the response - after reading dozens of posts about this stuff, one gets fed up with people whose argument actually does boil down to "I don't want to turn down my volume just because the CD is too loud".

 

That's my number one problem when I respond to stuff online - I don't separate the targets of my comments as well as I could. Sorry.

[Sir Lerxst]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Apr 24 2012, 02:30 PM)

Simply put your Vapor Trails CD in your CD player. Set the volume to a rocking loud level. Loud enough so you're saying, yeah man, this rocks!

Unlikely.

[druid13]

OK the fact of the matter is this Vapor Trails got screwed up...period.

 

You can't cut off wavelengths and expect it to sound right...you can't clip all the damn time and expect it to sound right.

 

This is like playing a drum...a drum sounds the best when you allow the stick to rebound ...it allows the drum to sing freely...and you don't have to bash it to get a good tone out of it. And inherently there is a RANGE of dynamics...

 

Vapor Trails is like the idiot who picks up sticks for the first time hitting into a drum so hard and choking the sound, denting the head and burying the stick into the head...and sounding like shit frankly...("but Doooode it's LOUD!")

 

For one the drum only gets SO loud...then you are just destroying the drum....same with cymbals...a cymbal only gets SO loud...then you start breaking them.

 

its a very simple concept really.

[toscanobarga]

Not this again.

 

It's not about LOUDNESS !!!!!

 

Take Power Windows or Snakes and Arrows and crank it LOUD. See how clear it is ?

 

Take VT or Metallica's Deaf Magnetic and crank it equally loud. See how it sounds like shit ????

 

 

 

 

[druid13]

But it is about loudness ...and the idiots who think everything should be pushed past clipping when mixed and mastered.

 

a shame.

[toscanobarga]

Some people just have hearing problems.

 

If you can't tell the difference in sound quality between SnA and VT you really should be listening to Nickelback.

 

 

[canadianice]

QUOTE (toscanobarga @ Apr 24 2012, 10:59 AM)

Some people just have hearing problems. If you can't tell the difference in sound quality between SnA and VT you really should be listening to Nickelback.

uuuuuuumm no i'll pass