Is college a rip-off?

[danielmclark]

Sure, you can work your way up - and to some extent, you should. Nobody should ever go into the restaurant management business without ever working in a restaurant. So, you can start off as a dishwasher and spend 15 years working your way up to owning your own, or you can go to college, get trained, and do it in a third the time (and with a far rounder education).

 

Managing your local supermarket isn't a career. Managing your supermarket's district is a career. You're right though - prestige has nothing to do with it.

[Blenderhead]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Oct 5 2010, 07:17 PM)

Sure, you can work your way up - and to some extent, you should. Nobody should ever go into the restaurant management business without ever working in a restaurant. So, you can start off as a dishwasher and spend 15 years working your way up to owning your own, or you can go to college, get trained, and do it in a third the time (and with a far rounder education). Managing your local supermarket isn't a career. Managing your supermarket's district is a career. You're right though - prestige has nothing to do with it.

[Tarkus406]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Oct 5 2010, 07:17 PM)

Sure, you can work your way up - and to some extent, you should. Nobody should ever go into the restaurant management business without ever working in a restaurant. So, you can start off as a dishwasher and spend 15 years working your way up to owning your own, or you can go to college, get trained, and do it in a third the time (and with a far rounder education). Managing your local supermarket isn't a career. Managing your supermarket's district is a career. You're right though - prestige has nothing to do with it.

I know people who HAVE made that their career. What makes it a career is that they enjoy it and they do it for many years. It makes the money, even if it's not enough for a Porsche.

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (Blenderhead @ Oct 5 2010, 06:20 PM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Oct 5 2010, 07:17 PM) Sure, you can work your way up - and to some extent, you should. Nobody should ever go into the restaurant management business without ever working in a restaurant. So, you can start off as a dishwasher and spend 15 years working your way up to owning your own, or you can go to college, get trained, and do it in a third the time (and with a far rounder education). Managing your local supermarket isn't a career. Managing your supermarket's district is a career. You're right though - prestige has nothing to do with it. maybe your right but i'll bet the guy who worked his way up to the top from the bottom probably has a better understanding of how things are run. my father for example is a retired detective. when he was on the job and up until he retired, he noticed alot of college grads excelling on the promotional tests where they held higher rank than he did, yet they were always going up to him asking him for advice on how to do things or just didn't have the street smarts. they made more money than my father but my father new more about the job than the college grad/good test taker.

Edited October 5, 2010 by ReflectedLight

[Blenderhead]

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Oct 5 2010, 07:27 PM)

QUOTE (Blenderhead @ Oct 5 2010, 06:20 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Oct 5 2010, 07:17 PM) Sure, you can work your way up - and to some extent, you should. Nobody should ever go into the restaurant management business without ever working in a restaurant. So, you can start off as a dishwasher and spend 15 years working your way up to owning your own, or you can go to college, get trained, and do it in a third the time (and with a far rounder education). Managing your local supermarket isn't a career. Managing your supermarket's district is a career. You're right though - prestige has nothing to do with it. maybe your right but i'll bet the guy who worked his way up to the top from the bottom probably has a better understanding of how things are run. my father for example is a retired detective. when he was on the job and up until he retired, he noticed alot of college grads excelling on the promotional tests where they held higher rank than he did, yet they were always going up to him asking him for advice on how to do things or just didn't have the street smarts. they made more money than my father but my father new more about the job than the college grad/good test taker. Sure, there are exceptions

[Tarkus406]

QUOTE (Blenderhead @ Oct 5 2010, 08:20 PM)

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Oct 5 2010, 07:27 PM) QUOTE (Blenderhead @ Oct 5 2010, 06:20 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Oct 5 2010, 07:17 PM) Sure, you can work your way up - and to some extent, you should. Nobody should ever go into the restaurant management business without ever working in a restaurant. So, you can start off as a dishwasher and spend 15 years working your way up to owning your own, or you can go to college, get trained, and do it in a third the time (and with a far rounder education). Managing your local supermarket isn't a career. Managing your supermarket's district is a career. You're right though - prestige has nothing to do with it. maybe your right but i'll bet the guy who worked his way up to the top from the bottom probably has a better understanding of how things are run. my father for example is a retired detective. when he was on the job and up until he retired, he noticed alot of college grads excelling on the promotional tests where they held higher rank than he did, yet they were always going up to him asking him for advice on how to do things or just didn't have the street smarts. they made more money than my father but my father new more about the job than the college grad/good test taker. Sure, there are exceptions My father tells me all of the time about these young college kids who come into the plant and instantly make more money than him. But you know what? They f**k everything up, they don't know what they're doing, and they don't understand the industry! There's something seriously f*cked up about the world. A piece of paper tells an employer how well someone should be paid instead of how well they actually work. God, that pisses me off more than unions do!

[Alex]

I will repeat again, that it all depends on what you want to do.

[workingcinderellaman]

QUOTE (Alex @ Oct 5 2010, 09:29 PM)

I will repeat again, that it all depends on what you want to do.

 

College isn't for everyone. Some do much better without it.

 

[iluvgeddy05]

The problem is, most jobs, ones taken to pay the bills, require a bachelors. I think it's good to have under your belt just in case you *need* to take that mediocre office job just to get by for a while.

[circumstantial tree]

QUOTE (iluvgeddy05 @ Oct 6 2010, 12:43 PM)

The problem is, most jobs, ones taken to pay the bills, require a bachelors. I think it's good to have under your belt just in case you *need* to take that mediocre office job just to get by for a while.

Very true. Having a degree in anything can still help you get work even if it's not related to positions you're applying for. The person with the degree has a better shot than the one without the degree.

[Tarkus406]

QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Oct 6 2010, 02:07 PM)

QUOTE (iluvgeddy05 @ Oct 6 2010, 12:43 PM) The problem is, most jobs, ones taken to pay the bills, require a bachelors.  I think it's good to have under your belt just in case you *need* to take that mediocre office job just to get by for a while. Very true. Having a degree in anything can still help you get work even if it's not related to positions you're applying for. The person with the degree has a better shot than the one without the degree. And I know that's how it is and all....but doesn't that just seem wrong?   "Oh I see you have a degree in medieval art! I'm sure we can find a spot for you in shipping/receiving..."

[Digital Man]

[Natch]

My suggestion is to stay in school for as long as you can, or at least until you have your mind set on what you want to do with your career. The reason I say this, is because good paying jobs aren't as easy to come by in this day and age.

 

You want to have the competitive edge over others who are trying to get the same job. Unfortunately, employers can only judge potential recruits based on what's on their resume. For example: I interviewed two candidates for a position I have open. Both were really solid interviews and had the skills I was looking for. However, one had a degree and the other didn't. I went with the one who had the degree. The reason is because it shows that the individual made the effort to further his or her career. Now, is it fair? Maybe not. But when I'm limited to a couple of interviews and am mostly basing my decision on stats, I have no choice. I have to go with the person who has shown they could handle the workload that a college degree requires. The ability to handle that workload translates into the ability to handle the workload required by the job.

 

By the way, I do not have a college degree, and I'm a VP at a major banking institution. This may seem contradictory to my advice. But, only because hindsight is 20/20. If I'd stayed in school and got my degree, I might be further up the chain right now.

 

Regardless of what you decide, my advice is to work really hard at whatever you do. Above all else, I value hard work. Expertise isn't worth much if the expert is a slacker.

 

Good luck...

[lerxt1990]

College is an important thing for many professions. Its also a great place to receive formal education in various things. Its also a ripoff in many cases, particularly private institutions. That is all.

[KenJennings]

College is absolutely a rip-off. They soak you in tuition- which has inflated at a faster rate than any other commodity on the market (seriously, find anything that's inflated faster- not even Gas a $4/gallon did). Then they have the gall to crawl to your state/federal government and ask for subsidy and handout. So they soak you in tuition, they soak you in your taxes, then they indoctrinate you with their monopoly on information, and chastise you if you dare to dissent.

 

The college system is a total joke and needs to be completely dismantled and replaced. Independent learning is the way of the future; look into an e-college or some sort of vocational certification. What I've found out is: not only is hands on work more satisfying at a personal level (seeing work actually come from your hands is great), it actually ends up paying better in the vast majority of cases. Skilled tradesmen are in a vast shortage right now.

Edited October 6, 2010 by KenJennings

[workingcinderellaman]

A degree is always a good thing to have. The question is whether or not it's worth the cost in time and money to get a job in a chosen profession. If you want to work construction, it's probably not worth $70 K and four years of your life to have a bachelors with a history major. You would be much better off spending those four years as an apprentice.

 

Also, not everyone is suited to do well in college. Some may have trouble with ADD or some other learning problem that would not hinder them in the real world. Many people would do much better financially by taking that tuition money and going out and starting their own business.

 

Formal college education is not for everyone and that's not a bad thing.

 

[Tarkus406]

QUOTE (KenJennings @ Oct 6 2010, 06:48 PM)

College is absolutely a rip-off. They soak you in tuition- which has inflated at a faster rate than any other commodity on the market (seriously, find anything that's inflated faster- not even Gas a $4/gallon did). Then they have the gall to crawl to your state/federal government and ask for subsidy and handout. So they soak you in tuition, they soak you in your taxes, then they indoctrinate you with their monopoly on information, and chastise you if you dare to dissent. The college system is a total joke and needs to be completely dismantled and replaced. Independent learning is the way of the future; look into an e-college or some sort of vocational certification. What I've found out is: not only is hands on work more satisfying at a personal level (seeing work actually come from your hands is great), it actually ends up paying better in the vast majority of cases. Skilled tradesmen are in a vast shortage right now.

I know people who get out of college and make a decent living (20-25 bucks an hour)

 

But then I also know guys who graduated from my vocational tech high school and started off right away making 23 bucks an hour in the heating and air conditioning field. No college. Just the know-how and hours of work experience.

[ReflectedLight]

i grew up with a guy who went to college for 4 years + to become a biology teacher. he couldn't find job so he enrolled in nursing school for two years and found a well paying job almost immediately. this was before the economy tanked though.

[ILSnwdog]

I wouldn't have my current job if I didn't have a degree. There are lots of companies that won't even look at an applicant if they don't have a degree.

 

And once you get that degree, you are done. They can never take it away, and you will never regret having it, but if you don't get a degree, I can almost guarantee there will be a day that you will regret not getting one.

 

[Lerxst]

You have to begin college with the end in mind. What do you want to do after college, and do you need that particular degree to get there? Will that job pay for your college debts?

 

College is mandatory for some professions (engineering, architecture, medicine, law, teaching, accounting).

 

Do music as your sideline, and do something else that will pay the bills. Just a suggestion.

[lerxt1990]

QUOTE (workingcinderellaman @ Oct 6 2010, 07:14 PM)

A degree is always a good thing to have. The question is whether or not it's worth the cost in time and money to get a job in a chosen profession. If you want to work construction, it's probably not worth $70 K and four years of your life to have a bachelors with a history major. You would be much better off spending those four years as an apprentice. Also, not everyone is suited to do well in college. Some may have trouble with ADD or some other learning problem that would not hinder them in the real world. Many people would do much better financially by taking that tuition money and going out and starting their own business. Formal college education is not for everyone and that's not a bad thing.

[lerxt1990]

QUOTE (KenJennings @ Oct 6 2010, 06:48 PM)

College is absolutely a rip-off. They soak you in tuition- which has inflated at a faster rate than any other commodity on the market (seriously, find anything that's inflated faster- not even Gas a $4/gallon did). Then they have the gall to crawl to your state/federal government and ask for subsidy and handout. So they soak you in tuition, they soak you in your taxes, then they indoctrinate you with their monopoly on information, and chastise you if you dare to dissent. The college system is a total joke and needs to be completely dismantled and replaced. Independent learning is the way of the future; look into an e-college or some sort of vocational certification. What I've found out is: not only is hands on work more satisfying at a personal level (seeing work actually come from your hands is great), it actually ends up paying better in the vast majority of cases. Skilled tradesmen are in a vast shortage right now.

lighten up francis.

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (ILSnwdog @ Oct 6 2010, 06:59 PM)

I wouldn't have my current job if I didn't have a degree. There are lots of companies that won't even look at an applicant if they don't have a degree. And once you get that degree, you are done. They can never take it away, and you will never regret having it, but if you don't get a degree, I can almost guarantee there will be a day that you will regret not getting one.

it all depends on what you want to do though. i went to college for 2 years and other than all the women around, i hated it. i kept all my options open and as i was still figuring things out, i took a civil service test and it turned out to be the best move i ever made. the job is recession proof with a solid salary and benefits, plus i like what i do. if you know what you want to do right away, well that makes it easier to decide which path to take.

[danielmclark]

I'd like to take this back to the first post because there are some points that I think could be addressed.

 

QUOTE (Steel Rat @ Oct 5 2010, 02:16 AM)

I'm starting to feel stupid for going to college. First of all, I have to pay $4000 a semester.

 

The subject of cost has come up a few times, and I'd like to raise a point about it - where does $4000 go? That's what, $1000 a month? You get a place to live, meals (some of them anyway, depending on your plan) and instruction from a variety of professors. My mortgage is more than $1000 a month. Hell, the rent I pay for this stupid apartment I'm in while we're waiting for the house to sell is $850. Could you get a studio apartment somewhere and pay $300 a month? Sure. Then the remaining $700 will go toward food, gas for your car to get to work, utility bills and all the other little things that add up when you're out in the real world.

 

I wish the bulk of my living expenses only totaled $1000 a month.

 

The other thing I wanted to bring up was this:

 

QUOTE

So instead of jumping right into a $10/hour job, I have to wait 4 years, collect hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and then I can get that same $10/hour job.

 

There's the problem. You expect to get a $10/hour job when you get out. People don't go to college with the expectation of coming out and getting a $10/hour job. You can work at McDonalds for nearly that much. Federal Minimum Wage is $7.25 now, and many states have laws that increase that amount (only 10 states have no minimum wage law or a wage lower than $7.25).

 

This is what I was alluding to when I was talking about having a career vs. having a job earlier in the thread. Ten bucks an hour is a job. If you go with the intention of coming out and going into a career, you'll make much more than that.

 

Also, unless you're going to medical school or you're planning on being a lawyer, you're not going to rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt. Not on $4,000 a semester, you're not.

 

Just a thought.

[PariahDog]

QUOTE (Steel Rat @ Oct 5 2010, 03:16 AM)

I'm starting to feel stupid for going to college. First of all, I have to pay $4000 a semester. I'm a music major. My mentors told me I should pursue a career in my main interest, and my interest is CLEARLY in music. So that's what they told me - "You should pursue music at the University of Iowa." Without thinking clearly, I said "Ok, sounds like a logical idea."

I was facing the same exact choice back when I started school. I was a big music fan and guitar student (rock, jazz, classical), so I figured I would get a music degree. I took some music classes at community college (and loved it!) but started to wonder what my actual JOB would be after school.

 

I was also good with computers/programming, so I finally decided to get computer degree and "real" job and pursue music on my own time. It worked out well, because I've had a good career and have continued playing music with my friends in bands (first original music, then cover bands).

 

In retrospect, the trick may be to decide what exact job it is you want to do, and then figure out what you need to get there: college degree, training, internship, experience, etc. Of course, it's hard to figure this all out we're younger. Of my friends growing up, only one guy knew exactly what he wanted to do, was focused like a laser, and ended up achieving it. The rest of us have all done pretty well, but in more typical "boring" jobs.