Caravan & Far Cry

**rushgoober** · August 26, 2010

QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Aug 26 2010, 10:05 AM)

QUOTE (1-0-0-1-0-0-1 @ Aug 26 2010, 09:33 AM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 25 2010, 10:44 PM)

locator, i think most people are defining "classic" here as what THEY consider to be a classic, not necessarily the world at large.

in that definition, far cry is definitely a classic to me, caravan is not.

I think most people here are defining "classic" as pertaining to either the history of music as a whole, or Rush's history. In most cases, probably the latter. "Spirit of Radio" is a classic Rush tune. So are "Limelight" and "Tom Sawyer." "Subdivisions" is another Rush classic.

I would define "Rush classic" as fitting at least one of the following criteria:

1. The song has an excellent chance of being played on every tour, or almost every tour, for as long as the band exists;

2. The song is played regularly on a classic rock radio station when it's time to play a Rush song;

3. The song is universally loved by Rush fans, even if it's not in the regular tour or radio rotations -- one of those songs where if someone says, "I don't like that song," everyone else is shocked. "Natural Science" and "Red Barchetta" are good examples.

Is "Far Cry" in that category? Too early to tell. I don't think it will qualify as a Rush classic. I like it, but I really don't see it being mentioned in the same breath as the above mentioned songs. Same for "Caravan" -- I like it, but it's a really quirky song, and not everyone has bought into it.

Time will tell.

That is a good breakdown of some criteria to look for when naming a song a "classic".

With that said though...I'm not sure any of these songs will hit a "classic" stage, at least not to the degree that songs like Tom Sawyer, TSOR, CTTH, or Limelight hit.

The reason I say this is because I surprisingly have been hearing Caravan on the radio quite a bit here (which is great), but for some reason, it doesn't sound like a radio "hit". Something about it...maybe the complexity?

I love the song...but it doesn't ring radio hit to me.

Now, do I think it will become a staple for future tours? Yes. But I mean, there probably aren't all that many tours left (unfortunately!). But while they continue touring, I think Caravan will be played.

As far as reputation amongst us fans, it seems to have been very well-received by most people, but most of us would probably not put it at the same level as songs like Natural Science or La Villa.

I think strictly from a radio perspective, Far Cry is definitely the most "radio-friendly" song. The main riff hooks you in, the lyrics are understandable and relatable to most people, and it has one of the catchiest choruses that they've done in ages. Instantly recognizable.

I always thought BU2B could be a radio-hit...almost better suited for it than Caravan, though the lyrics may be a reason why it doesn't appeal to the wider audience. But to me, it is catchier than Caravan, though not nearly as musically intense.

At the end of the day, none of these three songs will probably get much attention on classic rock stations once next year's release and tour are gone. Far Cry disappeared from radio a few months after S&A was released, and I expect that Caravan will follow suit, and might stick around until after CA is released, but that's it. BU2B most likely won't ever be released as a radio single.

I don't know if it's realistic to expect any new Rush song will become a radio hit these days. Far Cry had everything going for it with the exception of a kick ass guitar solo. If that song couldn't make it, no song will.

Then again, I can easily see Far Cry becoming a staple of classic rock radio in years to come once this era becomes more classic. It's just that strong of a song.

Instant classic with these criteria? Well, obviously not. I can see them keeping the song on every tour though (however many more there are) and it's at least somewhat universally loved by Rush fans. I don't know if I can see Caravan fitting any of those criteria. It simply doesn't have the lyrical strength and catchy melody that Far Cry does.

Proof that Far Cry is more loved than Caravan?

In this poll ( http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?show...6162&hl=Caravan ) Caravan has 32 votes and Far Cry has 36 votes when pitted against each other. That seems close, but when you consider that poll was made almost immediately after Caravan came out, it's really not so close. People are easily infatuated and enamored with new Rush without taking the time to gain some historical perspective. I highly suspect the numbers will be more skewed towards Far Cry if that poll is done 3 years from now.

**thelocator** · August 26, 2010

QUOTE (1-0-0-1-0-0-1 @ Aug 26 2010, 08:33 AM)

QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 25 2010, 10:44 PM)

locator, i think most people are defining "classic" here as what THEY consider to be a classic, not necessarily the world at large.

in that definition, far cry is definitely a classic to me, caravan is not.

I think most people here are defining "classic" as pertaining to either the history of music as a whole, or Rush's history. In most cases, probably the latter. "Spirit of Radio" is a classic Rush tune. So are "Limelight" and "Tom Sawyer." "Subdivisions" is another Rush classic.

I would define "Rush classic" as fitting at least one of the following criteria:

1. The song has an excellent chance of being played on every tour, or almost every tour, for as long as the band exists;

2. The song is played regularly on a classic rock radio station when it's time to play a Rush song;

3. The song is universally loved by Rush fans, even if it's not in the regular tour or radio rotations -- one of those songs where if someone says, "I don't like that song," everyone else is shocked. "Natural Science" and "Red Barchetta" are good examples.

Is "Far Cry" in that category? Too early to tell. I don't think it will qualify as a Rush classic. I like it, but I really don't see it being mentioned in the same breath as the above mentioned songs. Same for "Caravan" -- I like it, but it's a really quirky song, and not everyone has bought into it.

Time will tell.

And, I was pointing out in my dissertation above that it's 'primarily' the choices made by American DJs whether or not something will reach 'Classic' status.

Why are the three Singles from the first Audioslave release etched into our public consciousness, while the songs from the second and third release are virtually unknown to the masses? I own those other recordings, and there's certainly other worthwhile material scattered all over the 2nd, and 3rd release. But, only the Audioslave fans are familar with them, not the population as a whole.

I drew attention to how the new, John Bush-led incarnation of Anthrax in the 90's was given a truckload of attention by Modern Rock DJs, and how, NOW, many years later, songs like 'Only' and 'Room For One More' are in movies, video games, and all over the radio...Those tunes became Classic, while the songs from the 2nd and 3rd Bush-era Anthrax releases were passed over. I had other examples of this as well.

This is EXACTLY the reason why the material on Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures is the MOST CLASSIC material of the RUSH discography...Radio got behind all of this material when it was 'first released'...and that makes all the difference in the world. They also got behind a tune or two from the albums preceding it, and that's why those songs still are played.

DJs, and the American Public itself was intrigued by the 'reinvention' of the band in the early 80's, and thusly gave all that material a tremendously high degree of rotation on the radio...ensuring that it would become 'Classic' material and would be played by future generations of DJs...That's precisely how this thing works.

'Classic Status' is all dependent on whether the DJ collective decides to get behind a particular band, and a particular release from that band...It's just that simple...Now that Radio is NO LONGER a factor at all in the type of music that the average TRF member listens to (all the new and amazing Prog stuff), you will never hear the 'Classic' tag attached to the older things we like...

Sure, you can say that you like 'Classic Era' Dream Theater or King's X...But, what does that really mean? Aren't you really just saying that you dig the older stuff? Because, American Rock Radio never got behind any of this stuff in the first place, so it never got etched into the public consciousness...It never reached 'Classic Status'...I think the phrase is really just synonymous with the term, "really popular".

**losingit2k** · August 27, 2010

QUOTE (thelocator @ Aug 25 2010, 09:36 PM)

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Aug 25 2010, 06:46 PM)

Are they instant Classics?

That's the question here? Whether tunes like these have any chance of becoming instant classics? But, I don't get why one selection from S&A is choosen, and mentioned alongside these two others singles...Were they just choosen at random to represent the modern era?

If that's the question, then the answer has to be 'no'...They're really 'good' songs, these tracks...as is pretty much everything coming from RUSH...Fine selections for 'singles'...but, I believe that a band's 'classic' material only comes along during its first decade of existence. This particular band's recording career begun in '74 and its classic era came to an end, roughly around '82/'84....

So, this theory of mine applies to Rush, for sure. All their Greatest Hits come between the first ten years...apart from two or three tracsks from Counterparts...But, I'll admit that it's a real 'loose' theory...More lie a 'general rule'...There's tons of flukes and anomalys all over the place which truly musses with the foundations of the theory....lol.

* But, I noticed someone else's addendum to this general rule above somewhere...Whether a song becomes 'part' of our collective POP culture consciousness is MAJORLY DEPENDENTupon whether or NOT these songs receive a high degree of 'radio airplay' at that pivotal moment of release...That is the MAIN INGREDIENT in the success formula/theory/rule of thumb.

People need to hear the song on that stinkin' device they call the radio...And they need to hear it often...The tune has to be pumped out on the airwaves and it has to reach us in settings where we're all jolly-like, like at beaches, bars and bar mitzvahs...The 'single' never needs to be a full-on 'hit' per se, but has to make some kinda dent on the Rock charts.

Only then will that song get played by other DJs, five, ten, twenty years down the road...EXAMPLE: The reason why we still only hear material from Sabbath's Paranoid album is because that was the only album that DJs choose to touch, all the way back in 1971...Only one song from the album prior to it, and possibly two other songs from the next two Sabbath outings have ever been afforded any kind of airplay on Classic Rock Radio...And, Sabbath has a ton of great music that could be given a huge degree of attention.

But, the decision on which Sabbath songs were/are acceptable to be played/heard on the radio was a thing which was decided during the first few years of the 1970's...SAME goes for any other band, during any other era...Why do we only hear selections from Jethro Tull's Aqualung release, when there are something like 19 JT studio albums?

The DJs who are spinning the discs at that moment when some potentially 'classic' album is first released, THOSE are the ones who will be the deciding factor on whether some track gets adopted by the masses, or whether that tune gets relegated to a significantly smaller group of worshippers...and 'underground' following...That's just how it goes, kids.

Then, there's some wierd in-between land of existence. Going back to the example of Jethro Tull...I became a huge fan of the band around 2000 and picked up many discs from the Remastered series...On those recordings, I found some songs that I distinctly remember hearing on the radio when I was just a wee kid...

There were Tull albums, which, when released, delivered singles to Classic Rock Radio, that were worthy enough to at least receive a certain degree of airplay from these DJs...They would play these singles over and over again for some 'X' duration of time...But, then, maybe a year or so later, the songs had been completely erased from the playlists...never to be played again, even at some much later date...Poof! Vanished.

WHAT THE F IS THIS? The 1980's were FULL of recordings that rendered forth a single or two that got played non-stop for some lengthy stretch of time...But, once that indescript tenure of time was over with, you'd NEVER hear that song played ever again. The was the F'n 80's!

Other crazy decisions come to mind now...There was plenty of interest in the new, 90's version of Anthrax when John Bush joined the band and they went in a different, more modern direction...Modern Rock Radio jumped all over the chance to play the newly pumped band...

A tremendous degree of airplay was given to the singles 'Only' and 'Room For One More'...AND, these songs are great examples of SONGS THAT HAVE broken the temporary-play barrier and have become permanent fixtureson the radio...These songs STILL receive a bunch of attention from a ton of different media outlets. Football games, movies, radio, video games...these particular songs have made the grade and become 'classic'.

But, Anthrax's next studio album was almost the complete 'mirror image' of the John Bush debut...It was absolutely FULL of catchy, accessible songs that could have easil been played just as much as the material from the prior album...

YET, something went wrong here...It was basically the same exact album that the band delivered, yet no one gave the material the time of day...The album received absolutely NO radio airplay from the stations here in New York, and thusly, no one knew crap about a really solid Anthrax release...

To my ears, it was almost the twin bro of the album which directly preceded it...Go figure. So, no more successful singles for Anthrax...Maybe if some DJ went and cued one of the songs up, the requests would have come flooding in to play the frikkin' thing...I dunno. Just seems reasonable.

* Above, someone said that Caravan and R2UB were the best songs since the 'Counterparts' material...I dunno about all that...But, I do know that I loved that '93 album when it came out...mainly because it was FULL of great and accessible songwriting, and once again portrayed the band as a 'Hard Rock Group'...a fact that wa no longer evident by the time 'Presto' had rolled around.

The radio programmers and managers are a fickle bunch...and for some strange, odd reason, they've been entrusted to decide what it is that becomes 'classic' and what gets pushed aside and forgotten.

Wow, I didin't know you were making a disertation on the subject!

I'll add something no one has mentioned of course it wont be as elloquent! I believe that if a band believes in a song it will become classic. Case in point!

Billy Joel has played Miami 2017 and Italian Resturant Live since their release not because people heard them on the radio, Cause the fact is we were all introduced to them Live and he kept them there stapled in the sets tour after tour until we fell in Love with them!

Lets take Rush: La Villa, Xanadu, Jacobs Ladder, Natural Science, The Camera Eye. Songs we all consider Classics. None have received much air play or recognition in the media! They are only classic cause we called them classics and Rush Believed in the songs. Hell we would prefer to listen to these songs probably more than " The Classic " Closer to the, Spirit of, Tom's, Limelight, in 2112.

To me a classic song is not about Time of Release or Airplay! It's about the song. I Knew Home By The Sea by Genesis was a classic the first time I heard it! (Minimal Airplay) I knew Budapest by Jethro Tull was a classic when it first came out (Absolutely No Airplay). I knew YYZ was a Classic the first time I heard it and it wasn't on the Radio! All Stapels in their bands sets now!

Classic songs have an Aura about them! They have something different that turns heads! Like Marilyn standing above a Subway vent! it makes you say Wow! Thats Hot! Regardless if they get Airplay! They need to get Played Live and thats it! I've always considered Mission a classic even though not much attention was given to it when Hold Your Fire was released and there it is within sets during many tours! This tour features Presto! That song is classic! Regardless of the airplay or attention given to it upon release.

If we believe in the songs and Rush Believes in them they will become classic!

I for one already believe that Far Cry and Caravan are! They both maybe go....WOW! That's Hot!

**losingit2k** · August 27, 2010

Addendum: Dream Theater has many classic songs none have been played on the Radio! As of Late: Octavarium and Count of Tuscany! Both songs have received zero airplay and both were recently released and everyone seems to Love them!

Why?

Becuase they are Classic! Just like Far Cry and Caravan!

rules!

**Cinderella Man** · August 27, 2010

yes to both,and also BU2B ,i really love that song

**thelocator** · August 27, 2010

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Aug 27 2010, 12:13 PM)

I believe that if a band believes in a song it will become classic. Case in point!

Billy Joel has played Miami 2017 and Italian Resturant Live since their release not because people heard them on the radio, Cause the fact is we were all introduced to them Live and he kept them there stapled in the sets tour after tour until we fell in Love with them!

YOU make a very valid point here, citing probably the second most important reason that a song might become 'Classic'...If you think about it, yours is just another method of accomplishing the very same goal of my DJ/Radio example.

The goal is 'repeat exposure'...Either you can get it from placing the needle on the record and hitting the 'ON AIR' button, or the artist can play the song live for whomever's in attendance that evening...If the artist brings this particular tune to every single city he visits, makes it a crowd participation sorta thing, says the title of the song over and over again, then he/she will increase its popularity significantly.

But, you got a little bit of a discrep. between the 'type' of piece which will go over big with a crowd in the live, concert setting, and what is certain to be a popular, radio single...Sometimes the formula is one in the same...Sometimes what translates well on the stage makes for a crumby radio song. But, the live method is def. another succesful route to acheiving 'Classic Status'.

"Addendum: Dream Theater has many classic songs none have been played on the Radio! As of Late: Octavarium and Count of Tuscany! Both songs have received zero airplay and both were recently released and everyone seems to Love them!"

Here ya got a problem with the basic variables of the definition...I would argue that Dream Theater has NO Classic tuneage (maybe, possibly, 'Pull Me Under')...Because, the definition that I'm working with here is synonymous with 'mass appeal' or 'largescale mainstream acceptance'...The material has to be 'known' (and I guessed 'loved) by a load of folks...

* What you're talking about here is stuff that is 'well-received' amongst Dream Theater fans only...But, it doesn't mean that little Suzie Rottencrotch up the block is going to know Jack about these songs.

**LeaveMyThingAlone** · August 27, 2010

QUOTE (thelocator @ Aug 27 2010, 06:06 PM)

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Aug 27 2010, 12:13 PM)

I believe that if a band believes in a song it will become classic. Case in point!

Billy Joel has played Miami 2017 and Italian Resturant Live since their release not because people heard them on the radio, Cause the fact is we were all introduced to them Live and he kept them there stapled in the sets tour after tour until we fell in Love with them!

YOU make a very valid point here, citing probably the second most important reason that a song might become 'Classic'...If you think about it, yours is just another method of accomplishing the very same goal of my DJ/Radio example.

The goal is 'repeat exposure'...Either you can get it from placing the needle on the record and hitting the 'ON AIR' button, or the artist can play the song live for whomever's in attendance that evening...If the artist brings this particular tune to every single city he visits, makes it a crowd participation sorta thing, says the title of the song over and over again, then he/she will increase its popularity significantly.

But, you got a little bit of a discrep. between the 'type' of piece which will go over big with a crowd in the live, concert setting, and what is certain to be a popular, radio single...Sometimes the formula is one in the same...Sometimes what translates well on the stage makes for a crumby radio song. But, the live method is def. another succesful route to acheiving 'Classic Status'.

"Addendum: Dream Theater has many classic songs none have been played on the Radio! As of Late: Octavarium and Count of Tuscany! Both songs have received zero airplay and both were recently released and everyone seems to Love them!"

Here ya got a problem with the basic variables of the definition...I would argue that Dream Theater has NO Classic tuneage (maybe, possibly, 'Pull Me Under')...Because, the definition that I'm working with here is synonymous with 'mass appeal' or 'largescale mainstream acceptance'...The material has to be 'known' (and I guessed 'loved) by a load of folks...

* What you're talking about here is stuff that is 'well-received' amongst Dream Theater fans only...But, it doesn't mean that little Suzie Rottencrotch up the block is going to know Jack about these songs.

So because they kept playing Roll the Bones every tour, does that mean it's now a classic?

**ReflectedLight** · August 27, 2010

can someone enlighten me as to what i'm hearing in caravan? the part where geddy starts singing "i can't stop thinking big", is alex playing his guitar or is it a keyboard? i'm not talking about the backround layer of power chords but the part layered on top of that.

**thelocator** · August 28, 2010

QUOTE (LeaveMyThingAlone @ Aug 27 2010, 06:13 PM)

So because they kept playing Roll the Bones every tour, does that mean it's now a classic?

I dunno...Ya wanna come up with a valid definition that's acceptable to you...Or, maybe ya wanna leave that sorta thing to the fellas who can handle abstract notions and the relationships 'tween them...

That was a wise-acre remark.

**1dgbass** · August 28, 2010

Great thread man! Your right, I'm 21 and I beleive that Caravan and FarCry are the classics of today, but I'll go to the grave wishing I could have experienced the seventies. You older guys are so lucky.

**rushgoober** · August 28, 2010

QUOTE (1dgbass @ Aug 28 2010, 05:31 AM)

I'll go to the grave wishing I could have experienced the seventies. You older guys are so lucky.

I got to see Rush in 1982 but, you know, I wish I could have gone to the Monterey Pop Festival, Woodstock and seen Hendrix, as well as Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane back in 1967-1970.

It's always something.

**rushgoober** · August 28, 2010

QUOTE (LeaveMyThingAlone @ Aug 27 2010, 04:13 PM)